Paris marathon 2013 here we go! A.W's Sub 3 attempt!

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  • Everything seems to be going well KR, Andy, AW.

    Alex is not doing Dorney as if ok  doing Wokingham next week.

    I did Chichester 10k and a lot slower than Alex but just about reached my sub-38 target on chip time if not gun. Breezy but not as bad as was expecting

  • Sorry guys, as Steve says I'm not going to be at Dorney again on the 16th. I've had Wokingham booked for ages and two halfs on back to back weekends would be pushing it i think!!! Thought i'd mentioned it at training day!??



    Good weeks training KR and AndyV. The weeks seem to be flying by, its week 8 already!! Nearly half way for me!!!



    How was Chichester Steve? Is it a fast course? Good work on getting your sub 38 goal time.
  • Week 8

    Mon Feb 4: rest or 5M easy

    Feb 5: 6 x 1600 in 6 mins with 2 mins rest: 9M in total

    Feb 6: 8M steady in 7:30-8:00

    Feb 7: 6M with middle 2M at marathon pace

    Feb 8: 5M easy or rest

    Feb 9: 3M with strides

    Feb 10: Half-marathon (15M in total)

    week total: 46M

  • Hi Steve,

    As this weeks been an easier one with the few rest days because of my foot, do I need to alter anything this week to get some more miles in? Like the mid week longer run I missed, or do you want me to do a few more miles after my half marathon at the weekend?

    Feel like I had a cut back week last week and I need to make up for the sessions missed this week!!!!

  • DS2, Ady and Steve - Thanks guys! So happy about my PB I can't describe! I've never picked up a podium place at a race, so very happy. But, and its a big but, it doesn't mean a lot unless I can do the business in Paris, so my focus is right back on training hard and getting to Paris in the right condition!

    I'm still enjoying the moment though and had a nice meal to celebrate last night.

  • AW - the important thing this week is to run a good half marathon and for the injury to fully clear. I think you can do 10 miles Wednesday instead of 8 and 5 instead of 3 Saturday to go up to 50 but otherwise can stay as same and put a heavy block in over the latter part of February. Chichester is good course and has fast downhill last km and not too many ups to get there. Lots from my club did PBs and 4 of the women broke 38 and the fastest man from the training group did a two minute PB to run 32:33. 

  • Agree with Stve don't try and amke up for last week keep things as they are meant to be as you will only overload the foot again. It's coped really well with the weekend and as we said if continues to settle and get less sore with each run then that's great. Keep icing and stretching.

    Well done on a fab pb!! Brilliant running

  • A.W wrote (see)

    Ruth - I trialed the early part of my marathon fueling strategy as well, a gel at 6 and 11 mile, and pleased to say no problems like last weeks run which makes me think I may have had a bit of a bug last week. My stomach was a little squirmy after the gels having said that, but nothing that would affect my running. Do you think we are good with these gels or should I try something else, maybe without the caffeine?

    It might be worth trying a gel with more water content? and perhaps only using the GU 40mg as your last 2 gels. So try for example isogels, GO or powerbar hydro for first 2? Your stomach may be okay over first half but if making stomach squirmy on a club run, not a race perhaps we still need to work on this? Where you hydrated before you started the 14miler?

    Looking back at previous marathons, have you kept note in training diary of gels, sweets etc you have used and what was the outcome?

    I will put up you carb load plan in next post.

  • Sorry, meant to say first of all - well done on a massive pb. Steve is working his magic although that magic only works if the runner is prepared to do the homework!

    Well done.

  • Denis Duret wrote (see)

    RUTH MCKEAN wrote (see)

    Your carb intake is 40g per hour, have you ever hit the wall hard with this plan above ( if not stick with it). The 3 gels with caffeine is perfect- when do you take your last gel?

    I have only hit the wall once but it was my first marathon. Thinking about it, I have rather "naive" and didn't really pay attention to the nutrition side of it. I seem to manage on 3/4 gels and carbo-loading the week before. I might change things this year as I have an article which suggest that suggest you can do the carbo-loading diet without the depletion phase (http://running.competitor.com/2011/03/nutrition/the-evolving-art-of-carbo-loading_22908)

    I tend to take my last gel at about 21M. I take Shotz gels and you need to take water with those gels. Since I don't carry water with me, I time my gels before the water stations. There is usually one after the hairpin bend, at around 21M.

    Ruth, I have a question for you:
    Is peanuts butter any good? Is it mainly for recovery?

    The depletion stage not being favoured is certainly not a new thought. In fact since the 1980's it has been suggested that the depletion stage is not required to carb load effectively and may actually may be detrimental to carb loading (as you body's ability to uptake the carbs when you actually start carb loading is reduced). In addition the hard training required to deplete does not allow a  proper taper. As I think I have mentioned in one of the forums, the world class marathon runners or very well trained runners can carb load within 24 hours and use little energy from carbs during the race but these guys are close to running 2 hours! As A.W is a well trained runner suggests he probably only needs to carb load for 48 hours but I still recommend he uses the gels  during the races (we are going with 4 but he may find by his next marathon he is only needs 3 but we are not taking that risk in Paris).

    Peanut butter is suitable as the protein part of a  recovery  snack so for example a recovery snack could be, a bread roll with thick spread of peanut butter on both sides and a large banana (provide around 50g of carbs plus 15g of protein).  

  • A.W

    Here is what I estimate your carb load diet to look like for the 2 days before Paris but suggest practice one day before chicester next weekend (also look at Adrian's as he is roughly the same amount of carbs but some different foods) 

    • Carbohydrate loading should aid with maintaining pace in latter part of race.
    • Suggest follow below plan for up to 2- 3 days before Paris with rest or very light running. As you are well trained 2 days may be sufficient.
    • Practice carb loading opportunities this weekend fir one day, to test how the volume feels etc.
    • You can spread the morning & afternoon snacks out over a whole morning/afternoon. For example you may want to sip on 700ml of juice or snacks over 1-2 hours rather than have it all at once.
    • Protein such as fish/meat/cheese should be kept small or cut out altogether to reduce volume/bulk/extra calories of diet. You will have adequate protein in the below menu when resting anyway.  
    • You should feedback any negatives to me/how you felt doing this.

     

     

    Breakfast:  60g of   cereal with 200-250ml of skimmed milk (60 grams of carbs) & 200ml glass   of fruit juice (18g) with large banana (25-30g). Hot drink as usual.   Breakfast total: 105g

     

     

    Mid-morning:   700ml of high juice/cordial or fruit juice between breakfast & lunch   (60-70g) & Cereal bar (25g): total 90-95g

     

     

    Lunch: Sandwiches (4 slices of thick bread/two large   rolls= 60g) with one meat/fish filled sandwich and one banana sandwich (25g).   120g pot of yoghurt (low fat 16g)

    Total:100g

     

     

     

    Mid-afternoon: Between lunch and dinner a further 1 litre   of high juice or fruit juice (100g) & 5 jaffa cakes (40g) or or two   slices of pre-sliced malt loaf (40g). Total: 140g

     

     

    Evening meal: 100g   dried weight of rice or   pasta with tomato based sauce & 200g low fat yoghurt or rice pudding. Total:   100g  Or if you wished to have your usual home made pizza a mini pizza   base (~weighting 70g would provide 40g of carbs so if top with lots of  lots of tomato sauce etc will be around 50g   carb mark for this mini pizza). So you could either double the size to allow   100g of carbs form pizza or add 300ml fruit juice (27g) and a low fat fruit   yoghurt 16g if wish smaller portion of pizza. The night before Paris if you   have a pizza out you will easily have 100g of carbs in this and you should   choose to reduce cheese etc

     

     

     

    Supper: 40g bowl of cereal (40g) & 2 slices of   thick toast with jam or honey (50g): Total 90g

    Overall   estimated total: 630grams of carbohydrates.

     

  • Thanks for that Ruth, that all sounds good. I will trial it this weekend before Wokingham half.

    I was pretty well hydrated before my run and took 400ml of water on the run to take with the gels.

    I have used SIS Go gels before and got on ok with them from memory, so may be best served just going back to them!? I also got some Torq strawberry yogurt gels to try - these don't have caffeine?

    I know we talked about trying a gel in the latter stages of my half marathon, what should I do about this? Which should I use and when?

  • Great time in getting a sub 38 for your 10k race Steve.

    Good info as ever from Ruth! Got a question for you Ruth, is there any difference in Marmalde as opposed to jam on toast?

    Good weeks training ahead AW in prep for Wokingham, hopefully you'll feel like a loaded gun! (although that Tuesday 6 x 1600m reps in 6 mins with 2 min rest session looks a tough one!)

  • Yeah, tomorrows mile reps look tough KR!

    Got my 5 easy mile done earlier, pleasant enough, done at 7.40 pace. My foot tendinitis is much the same no better but no worse.

    Had my physio session and he worked the tendon and connecting muscles to loosen it off a bit, feeling a bit better now, but a little bruised at the same time. He thinks its manageable, and I can keep training at the planned level, I just need to keep on top of it with treatment, ice, stretching, strengthening etc.

    He gave me an option if it gets any worse too, might need a bit of advice from you first Sarah before considering that. Will see how we get on over the next week or two first.

    I plan to keep going with the treatments until its better or I get to Paris whichever is first!!!

  • AW - I'm sure if you can manage through it for the next 6 weeks or so you will be fine. Once the taper starts I'm sure it will give it a little more chance to recover with the slightly lower mileage and you'll be fine!

  • Evening AW!

    Wow!! Fantastic new PB and 2nd place! Wow wow wow!! image

    Hope your foot feels better soon.

  • Is the half marathon being raced 100%?

  • I'm hoping so DS2, think if I can get through the next few hard weeks without the tendinitis getting worse then come taper time it should settle right down.

    Thanks RRR, how you doing? Hope the back has settled down for you??

    Hi Crazytown, I think that will be the plan if I'm feeling good.

  • I've tried a couple of gels now and the SIS Go seems to be my favourite too. Not least because of the taste - every single bloody gel seems to come in either blackcurrant or orange/citrus... this seems to translate as Calpol for babies and Calpol for kids. The SIS ones are in the same flavours but the blackcurrant one is actually vaguely palatable image

  • A.W wrote (see)

    I have used SIS Go gels before and got on ok with them from memory, so may be best served just going back to them!? I also got some Torq strawberry yogurt gels to try - these don't have caffeine?

    Torq strawberry yogurt gel don't contains caffeine but are quite nice. I also like Black Cherry. If you want Torq gels with cafeine, you need to choose Torq gels with Guarana. Apparently, it is the equivalent 89mg of natural Caffeine. I have stopped using them (no particular reasons except that I was given other gels) but I am still using their recovery product.

  • Yes def keep going with the physio while still aware of pain, that way he can monitor it and we know where you are. It will also improve it or at least stop it getting worse.

    What are the other options suggested?

  • Hi Sarah,



    He suggested as a last resort option if pain gets worse to have cortisone injection. He obviously wants to manage it through normal treatment at the minute, but he was saying as the marathon is quite close, if the pain got to a point where it was affecting what training I could do, an injection treatment on the short term would help me with this type of problem, taking away the inflammation which is causing the pain.



    What is your opinion on this type of treatment?
  • Hi Alex that wouldn't be my first option.

    You have to think about the long term picture here too, it certainly wasn't anywhere near that point when I saw it and It wouldn't be my treatment of choice. There are other options but if it got to that point which it hopefully won't then it would be best to see a sports medicine doctor get a scan and look at the options then. Rest and cross training should settle this though if it gets to the point where you can't train and making sure you identify the cause of the problem all the way up the chain to your lower back which will have an effect on the tightness of the lower leg and foot.

    You could try using hirudoid cream 4x daily which will help with the local inflammation.

    Keep me posted!!

  • Thanks Sarah,



    Hopefully like you say it won't get to a point where it becomes that much of a problem. At the moment it generally gets a little bit stiffer and tender in the evening after running, and I then ice and stretch every couple of hours the rest pf the day, by morning it feels ok again.



    As long as that cycle continues its going to be ok I think.
  • A.W wrote (see)

    Hi Crazytown, I think that will be the plan if I'm feeling good.

    Sorry to interfer but I am not sure if it wise to be running a half marathon at 100% in a marathon training schedule (unless extra weeks have been allocated). You would need to taper for about 1 week to be 100% on the starting line and then another week to recover. I am not your coach (and again I am sorry for interfering) but I would try 4 or 5M at marathon pace and then pick the pace up if you are feeling good.

  • I certainly don't think anyone should a half marathon with an injury and at the moment I get the impression it's not what I would call a proper injury but a warning sign that requires treatment and careful moitoringand erring on the side of caution .

     Normally, I do feel it is an advantage to have a fast half marathon in the build up, and if not 100%, at least 95%. I have run a hard half-marathon in the last four weeks of almost every one of my spring marathons in the last 30 plus years, though I know some prefer not to take the risk and want longer to recover but judging by the volume of people running half-marathons in February and March, most marathoners run a half-marathon..

    This year, I am doing one about 6 weeks before, which is just the way it works out and I don't see a problem of one in early February, other than the foot issue.

    In terms of controlling pace judgement and so you aren't running 13.1 miles flat out all the way and are in more control, I do think a steady start is a good idea for the first 5km (20-21minutes) and then presuming ok, gradually picking up, with the target 83-85.

    Cortisone certainly should be a very last resort and good treatment should mean you won't need it.

  • Steve Marathon Coach wrote (see)

     Normally, I do feel it is an advantage to have a fast half marathon in the build up, and if not 100%, at least 95%.

    Totally agree
  • First hard interval session for a couple of weeks today due to the couple of days missed last week.

    Really enjoyed the session - 6 x 1 mile with 2 minute recoveries - It was a bit windy which made it a bit challenging in parts! As I've said before on here, mile reps are one of my favorite sessions, so usually look forward to this type of session.

    Felt really controlled with the pace, comfortable, and if anything the reps felt easier as I got closer to the end! 

    My foot felt good today, no problems at all during the hard running.

    I got through 10 miles in total - where I use for mile reps is about 1.75 miles away so it makes a good warm up and cool down, but makes the total run a bit longer than the 9 miles scheduled. I generally feel I need a good 1.5 miles to warm up properly before intervals so works well.

    Splits for today - 5.53, 5.53, 5.55, 5.53, 5.50, 5.57

  • Excellent session AW  really consistent reps  in windy conditions and great that foot felt good.

    I did 10 x 800 off approx a minute recovery and wasn't pleased with it - average 2:57 and only got it down to that with a 2:46 last rep - having trained reasonably well for a few months now would have hoped to have been quite a bit quicker on my fourth to 9th reps instead of being a lot, lot slower than my average marathon PB pace!

  • Tasty splits on your mile reps AW espeically after your 10k race on Saturday. What's the race plan for Wokingham on Sunday?

    10 x 800 reps is a tough session Steve off 1 minute recovery. What's your weekly mileage up to at the moment? Still a good last rep time.

    Went to the track tonight for the first time this year to do 15 x 400 reps. Felt good and av lap times were 1.22  - 1.23. Ran my 10th rep with a group training there and pushed it a bit more in 1.17 which made the last 5 reps a bit tougher!

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