The Road to Paris - On a Plateau - Asics Target 26.2 Training

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  • Seren, hi

    We all agreed that there was no way the tool was suitable for an elite standard runner such as Ricky, aiming for 2.20 and the plan would not have been generated by MyAsics.

    As to your other point - sorry if it's misleading but as I'm sure all would agree, the important thing is that the coachees have a programme that both they and the coaches feel confident is going to give them best chance of achieving their goals and that is what we have now done. Let's now move forwards!

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Yes, Rosie's mileage was very high before you stepped in so I can see how it works in a case like that.   For me I couldn't get under 3:30 either but finally did it in 2011 running about 40 mpw but I don't think I could have made my big improvements staying on that mileage and have gradually increased it ever since.  I would question that whether those who pb on a low mileage could continue to do so without the increase, and if they are reaching their true potential by staying on a low mileage?

     

  • Hi Sam, yes, I remember discussing that midweek MLR run with you from P&D. I'm not sure about it at all. Last week I did (for the first time this winter) a 6mile run with 4 at tempo pace on Tuesday and 4 x 1 mile on Thursday within a 6 miler on Thursday. I couldn;t have contemplated a longish run between. I did a 10 miler this week but only because I'm trying to build the base 10% higher and don't like to mix too much intensity into it at the same time. So this week a bit more mileage but nothing very quick.

    For me the jury's out on the long midweek run. I don't think I will follow P&D although lots of the guys on Sub 3 and Sub 3:15 threads use them religiously. I am looking at using the RW Sub 3:15 Advanced plan. That looks a bit closer to what I'm used to!

  • DSanta- 6 mile run with 4 @ tempo on Tuesday and 4 x 1 mile on Thursday?  Is that P&D?  Sounds a bit harsh. Which week is it of which schedule?

  • it's neither Brolish. I have been base building for a good few weeks and just wanted to mix it up a little. This is the first time in years I've trained properly so wanted to get an idea of what I am capable of!

    Back to plodding this week!

  • Oh, ok. P&D would never have you do two sessions like this with MLR in the middle.

  • All the best to you ADY for the training I am sure with Sam behind you watching and guiding you will do fine.......depends on age, weight, injury, physique, experience and time available for a recreational runner and so many other factors when it comes to training for a marathon. These schedules be it on here RW or Asics are all a little interesting and with experience you need to tweak them. Liz Yelling in 2010 and Sam last year both gave me great advice on the schedules I was following at the time, and though I have only run two full marathons (4.35 2010 then 4.08 at a very hot Edinburgh 2012 aaagggghhh annoying me very much) the half marathon times have all improved due to following schedules and tweaking according to variables. (PB GNR 2012 1.42) I am looking to go sub four this next year all being well and I am using an Ultimate RW schedule at the moment aiming for March 9th 21 mile Fell Race a marathon equivalent due to hills.
    ALL THE BEST ADY you are privileged to have this opportunity all the best.image 

  • I'm sure Ady will do well with the personalised schedules.going to be a great journey

  • I saw Minni kissing Santa Claus wrote (see)
    I would question that whether those who pb on a low mileage could continue to do so without the increase, and if they are reaching their true potential by staying on a low mileage?

    But Minni, you also said that your increase in mileage was accompanied by more specific training.  Some people will improve without increasing the time they spend training by improving how they train - finding the key sessions that work for them.  Mileage will increase with speed anyway - Ady's 40 mile week (or was it 39?) for a 3:30 marathon will be broadly equivalent to 50 miles for a 2:30 runner in terms of time spent training (and that's the limiting factor for most of us).  

    I'd disagree with Sam that one 20 mile run is enough.  For me that would be a recipe for dying on my feet at 20 miles, but then I don't know Ady as well as Sam does and I'm no expert on such things.

  • MalcsMalcs ✭✭✭

    Hi Sam, really appreciate you taking time to shed more light on the thinking behind project Shady. I think you should be commended for incorporating a hangover day on Jan 1st - clearly you have a good understanding of who you're working withimage There is no burger day in the plan however, an omission that nobody seems to have picked up on yet. (sorry Ady, couldn't resist)

    I also really enjoyed bootcamp. Unfortunately it was all over so quickly I didn't manage to ask you whether you thought my ambition to get from 4hr to sub 3:30 was achievable or completely insane image  When you came to ask whether you had my HM time correct I didn't see you scurry away sniggering - so were you just being kind or would you agree that with a HM of 1:34 a sub 3:30 should be possible?

    I have spoken to alot of people on the forums who have been extremely helpful and encouraging. Most suggest that I have the speed but need to work alot on endurance. The consensus seems to be to get more time on my feet and also to slow down. 

    Originally I thought I might follow Ady's or Sarah's plans but maybe theirs is focusing on improving where they are weakest which may not necessarily work for me.

    What would you suggest?

    One things is for sure, if I run 4hrs on the dot one more time I may need psychiatric help. Perhaps it's Victor not you I should be speaking to?image

  • What a day to be stuck in meetings. I'm sure I only had 40 messages on here the last time I looked! Maybe I get more responses on here when I'm not posting! image

    I'm now off to another (teetotal-ish) Xmas party, so might not have the chance to post properly today. Tomorrow night though Mrs. Shady Ady is out, and I have the evening to myself. So what better way to spend it than catch up on this sordid marathon love affair!

    Malcs - I'm not sure you realised how lucky you were on that train back from Birmingham with Anabelle, Mrs. Shady Ady and I. You got to witness the last Fast-Food burger passing through my lips until I hit my target weight and target time. Saying that though, I am only 5 days into the challenge and still in that honeymoon stage of devotedly eating healthy food! I have lost 2 lbs already, and that's just from cutting out the process cr*p I use to eat.........only another 14 to go image

    I swapped tomorrows run to today, due to having commitments tomorrow. i will post more about this later, plus a link to my Garmin Connect. My target was 5 miles on a hilly course at 8mins per mile. I did 5 miles on a slightly hilly course (running up and down the only hill near where I work) at 7:54mins per mile.

    One good thing about this competition is I didn't even question going out for a run at lunch, even though it was raining. Normally I would swap the run to the evening to increase my chances of doing it in the dry! Very comfortable actually, although found myself pushing myself harder going up the hill and then struggling to slow my pace when coming down the hill.

    Thanks for your comments and debating so far. Thanks also Sam for the training schedule and your input on this forum page. As always, it's very much appreciated!

  • malcs - although I haven't known you very long it is clear to everyone who comes on these forums thinks you are already certifiable!image

    I reckon you've hit the nail on the head though. We are all different and we have to find what suits us best. That is the benefit of having a good coach!

    Doesn't hurt us questioning though!image

    I reckon if you put 1:34 HM into any of the calculators it would point to a Sub 3:30 Malcs, as long as you get the necessary endurance in.

  • Malcs- I've just run 3:26:49 off a 1:34 half so it must be possible!image

  • MalcsMalcs ✭✭✭

    Thanks DS2...I think image image

    Brolish - wow, that's fantastic! image Did you go for the 'less is more' or 'more is more' approach?

    Ady - it has gone a bit mental on here. It's that Sam Murphy hijacking your thread. I'd have words if I were youimage 

    Ooh 4 smilies in one post - count 'em!

  • Malcs- very much more is more... but that's just me!image

  • I busy thread with lots of discusions  is a healthy thread.............be worried when the only posts are yours and samsimage

     

  • Seren - I think this will be one of the more interesting threads. Ady has always got something funny or interesting to sayimage

    Brolish - I'm not sure what plan to follow at the moment. When I was young I ran hard on Tuesday and Thursday and usually 10 miles on a Wednesday but over two runs. I'm not sure my old body would cope now! Great time - just what Malcs needs to hear!

  • really enjoyed reading through this thread and picking up tips and ideas, thank you
  • Glad to see Ady has NY day off aswell!
  • NY day off and hangover acceptable.....it would be rude not to make the most of it and give this part of my training the full commitment it deserves........it's the only one allowed in the next 16 weeks! image

    Christmas Day on the otherhand.looks like it will be spent plodding the pavements...........at least this will stop me from getting in the way and ruining Christmas dinner. 

    Rest day tomorrow. I really struggle with rest days. I know they're needed and an essential part of recovery, but it's hard to break the mentality that it's a day of training missed. 

    Time to catch some zzzzzzzzzzzz...........I look forward to more debating tomorrow.....amd I'll definitely be catching up tomorrow evening.......that's a bonified promise! 

  • I've always enjoyed my Christmas Day runs, the streets are always so quiet and the people who are out are always really smiley and cheerful. The weathers always been nice aswell (for the last few christmas's since I started running), you will enjoy it!



    I can't believe how much you guys have to write on here...I really do think I would have struggled to keep up on some days!



    Think its going to be a rest day for me too (and last day at work for 10 days-can't wait) - long run tomorrow though! Hope you have an enjoyable rest day.
  • Malcs - Definitely would say that a 1.34 half shows that a 3.30 is achievable. I'm just surprised that you haven't run closer to it before. It's tricky to give individual advice given that I don't know your training history, how much you were doing, what sort of sessions but would agree that increasing frequency/distance would be the way to go (assuming you weren't doing much mileage before). I'd also mix in some high quality long runs with the long steady runs to improve ability to sustain pace over prolonged period. I coached a guy earlier this year who had run 3.50 as PB but his half was 1.31! He finished Loch Ness in 3.12...

    Minni - I do agree that you have to keep pushing the boundaries to achieve your potential and that will SOMETIMES mean raising mileage. But often breakthroughs can be achieved through quality not quantity. It's difficult to find that 'sweet spot' of mileage where you are getting the most out yourself, but not overdoing it. And unfortunately finding out where it is often involves going beyond it and having to deal with the consequences ... injury, burnout, exhaustion etc.

  • Oh yes, and Dave - the revised plan has an additional 20-mile run you'll be relieved to hear.  And the mileage is a bit higher. But that'll all be relieved as we go along. Please disregard what was iniitally posted.

    Ady, I believe your plan says Rest OR non impact cross training so feel free to hit the pool, bike, Pilates class. image

  • Very interesting debate on here about mileage. I think we all have to find out for ourselves what works, and some people will thrive on lots of miles whereas for others they will just burn out. I maxed at around 55 when I did sub 3.30 first time around (malcs, off a 1.34 half BTW image), but a lot of those miles were very easy. Personally I think it's more about how you structure the quality sessions (intervals, tempos, threashold etc) and the recovery from those, rather than the total number of miles.

    I prefer more long runs too - 5 or 6 over 20 miles really...I think it's good for the mind as much as anything - when you know you can run for over 3 hours and it still feels OK at the end, the actual marathon won't be a problem. I just think the first time you do 20 in your training schedule it is very unlikely to feel nice after about 16 or 17 miles, whereas the 5th or 6th time you do it is no problem. 

    Sam - the half to full conversion is a funny thing...on the sub 3.30 thread we have had a lot of banter about the difference between men and women...so most of the men on the thread have faster HMs than the women (several sub 1.30), but a lot of them have much poorer full marathon times. So the men seem to have more speed than endurance, whereas the women may be slower over shoter distances but have much better conversion (of courseimage).  What's your experience of that overall?

  • MalcsMalcs ✭✭✭

    Thanks Sam. I was running 3-4 days a week last year. One speed session of 3-5 and one easy of a similar distance with  long runs building to 20miles and alternating weekends of 20mile/13mile LSRs x 3 before taper. I think there was way too little outside the long run. Picked up quite a few niggles as a result.

    I also seem to have trouble when it gets hot. Every race I have struggled with either cramps or nausea. All the signs of dehydration I know but I chug down plenty of water and take gels and salt tabs. I should mention that when it's cold I've run 20 milers with little water and no salt tabs. 

    Wow, that's quite a result for your 3:50 guy - is this a sales pitch?image

  • MalcsMalcs ✭✭✭

    Freemers - that's a very interesting comparison. My wife says that she can do 3 or 4 runs at exactly the same time whereas I can only manage oneimage  

    Seriously though - I tend to agree about more longer runs making you feel progressivelty more comfortable. I definitely found that. However, I think I've done them off a weak base and so I've ended up with overuse issues.

  • Ha ha, no sales pitching at the moment - got my hands quite full image! It just shows that the right sort of training was all that was needed for him to get the result he was capable of.

    I do often find that men struggle with keeping their long runs/easy runs at the right pace. Women tend to be better at this. Perhspa this has an effect on their half maras being good but it not translating so well to full maras?

  • Here here agree with that point..........interval session for me today......in the rain lovely....image

  • So far, I feel my runs at a designated speed haven't gone too badly.....maybe this just shows I have more of a feminine side than I previously thought. It will be interesting to see if I can maintain a set pace for my longer runs.

    Personally (which means it could be wrong!), I think whether you do one 20 miler or more before the marathon, it's how strong you are mentally that will be a huge factor in how you cope doing the full marathon distance.

    As I know I've done it before, and done it comfortably, then it has put me in a much more positive mindset. This year from August to November, I used 3 marathons and an ultra as slower paced training runs to prepare myself mentally to do the distance this Spring before starting proper, varied marathon training. Doing these fairly comfortably, and especially doing the ultra, means the marathon distance isn't something that daunts me now, or niggles away at my mind.

    It was also good practice to test out different gels and energy replenishment tactics. I tink the most important thing I learnt here, was that just because they have it free at the aid stations, it doesn't mean you should try and eat the full variety on offer!

    Sam: You are quite correct, I had mixed up my proper 'rest' day with a rest day where I can cross train.........I'll get on the bike now tonight! image

  • Good stuff Ady, don't get blown away!

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