RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00



  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Andrew - had wondered where you had got yourself to. Great to have you back. And what an experience. To run a race with your brother and get him round in under 2 hours.  Fantastic. Try and stick around as it would be great to hear how you are getting on with getting ready for Brighton.

    We have debated the merits of P&D on here a few times. I think we all agree that it needs tweaking as for some reason it has very few 20 milers. But on the other hand there are those you swear by it. I struggled with it a little whilst training for Dublin. I found it a bit restrictve but Ricky used it and did very well in Dublin.

  • Carl - you will have your day soon I have no doubt! That said you have had Marathon & HM PB's this year also if I am correct? But I know there is much more to come from you!

    SFB - Long run pace.... I tend to run it prob closer to MP than most schools of thought would recommend. Usually 20-30 secs slower than goal MP - however most camps would advocate somewhere between 30 - 90 secs slower than your goal MP is where your LR pace should be.

    However - P&D advocate much more LR training at MP than is the "norm" - I have to say that this may have worked for me as I ran 8 mins faster this time round. That said my club speed sessions are an addition to my running schedule since June so these have probably contributed in some way too.

  • Carl - I did tweak P&D and ran 6 x 20 milers..... however I feel I overcooked it and really feel I peaked 5 - 6weeks ago.

    Next time I think it will be 3 or 4 x 20 milers only and, if I have a good base mileage to start with, then I think a shorter 12-14 week plan will work better for me.

  • Oh and sorry Speedy Fen to answer your question about long runs....

    So far I've run most of my LRs at about 10 min mile pace for the longest of them (20 milers) and 15 milers closer to 9:30 miles.  My marathon pace at Loch Ness was 9:08 min miles so for my longest runs that's almost a minute per mile slower.  It has worked well for me.

  • may break into a sweat any minute, two posts in under a week!!  Thanks for the thoughts re. P&D, I need to sit down and write the sessions into a diary sometime to work out how and where to alter it a little.

    Didn't get out last few days but did a quick 5 miles this eve. Went out about 4.40 so was rushing to get back before the sun went down as I didn't take my torch with me. my splits were: 7.31, 7.07, 6.56, 7.37, 7.07.  Only downside is a weird small swelling I have under my left ankle.  I think that I must have inadvertently twisted it during my long run on Sunday but although I feel it if it turns in the wrong way as long as my foot movement is straight lines I don't notice it, just feels a little tight.  All I can think of is that its a slightly stretched ligament? any suggestions?

    Was really good running with my brother, it wasn't his first race.  He ran VLM about 10 yrs ago but is not able to do as much as he used to as he is missing the most important factor that the majority of us on here are blessed with... an understanding wife! don't get me wrong my sister in law is lovely and great fun but I am very aware of how much leeway my wife gives me to allow me to disappear 3-5 times a week for a run.  Fingers crossed he will do another one though as I know he really enjoyed finishing the race.

    regarding long runs, Im not a good person to speak to as I really struggle to run slow enough, something I will really try to alter in my Brighton training.  I tend to start off slow (about 9.30-10.00) then start to speed up at mile 5-6 to MP of around 8.30 which I was able to maintain. However, last marathon I tried to hit 8.30 early and then fell apart briefly at mile 22 hence why ill try to change for Brighton. 

  • Wow, busy thread - thank you for all your advice.  I'm going to persevere with the strength training and see if it comes good. I chuck in a bit of yoga too - the ladies at the class are amazing and must be 25 years older than me!  I think that i may have to re-assess my long run pace and see where that takes me. I'm really looking forward (and cacking it!) to Boston as I've only ever done VLMs in the past so a change of scenery will be most welcome.  

  • Hi Carl
    The enjoyment is definitely the main thing ;0)
    Are there any runs before the end of the year around London you could attend? Seems a shame to waste the training.

    Hi Ricky
    How are the legs? I finally got a decent night's kip last night. Went to bed with a couple of Ibruprofen last night and slept like a log. The legs had been aching whilst in bed since the run, but were fine in the day.

    Hi Andrew
    good splits for your 5 miles!

    Hi Speedy fen
    In training for the marathon recently I was running my long runs either side of 8:30, you can see my splits for the marathon a page or two back.

    I would say that I have had to understand Biomechanics due to trying to counter the ITB issues, otherwise I would probably be quite ignorant to it all. It has been interesting though and like Ali says I think the S&C does help with the running. Also as Ali says when you are in the thick of your marathon training it is quite hard to fit the running and S&C all in together! I did have a spell of the BodyBalance classes which are a mixture of yoga and pilates whilst my son was at his Rookie lifeguard class on a Sunday evening, but I have scrapped that as I found sitting reading a book more rewarding to the soul!

    I would recommend a hill rep session once a week. it is very tiring but really rewarding and I feel it did help immensely with the biomechanics. Perversely I usually come down off the hill and perform a couple of short sharp reps on the flat after...but then as also discussed earlier on the forum I am probably unhinged image

    With regards to the P&D schedules, I do see value in the Marathon paced Long runs, I did incorporate them in my schedules.

  • Evening all. Just checking in from the algarve where it is nice and sunny. Will read back when I get home. Lots of food and beer consumed so far and having a nice relaxing time. Went for a nice run about 6:00 yesterday in perfect conditions; no people around, perfect temperature. Didnt know where I was going, of course, but managed a nice 8 miles or so. Plan to do the same tomorrow subject to how I feel when I wake up image Detox required when I get home.......

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Nell - my objective this weekend if to find a suitable race not too far away in the next few weeks. I would like to have a crack at getting a PB in before the end of the year. 

    Must balance that with my OH who thinks Inspend t ok much time running !!

    Carter - sounds like a holiday. Run if you feel like it. There will be loads of time when you get back to get back in the groove.

    SFB - interesting mix of views on pace for long runs. Like others on here I have a tendency to tun them a little faster than what some suggest. 30 - 90 secs above marathon pace seems to be one opinion. I do struggle with the concept of running any slower than about 9:30 min/mile.

    You mentioned that you have run London. When did you do that and what is your goal for Boston. ? 

    Parkrun for me in the morning. I have got to try and get this time under 23 mins on my very hilly course. Not sure my body is in the right frame of mind to do this just now but we will see in the morning if tomorrow is going to be the day. 

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    There's lots of good chat on this thread as normal!  I arrived back from a few days away late on Thursday and just relaxed yesterday.  Like Carter, I am now in need of a bit of a detox but I'm feeling refreshed after my marathon 2 weeks ago so ready to get back to it with the training.

    Anyone tuning into the New York Marathon this weekend (it's on Eurosport on Sunday afternoon I believe)?  There's a $500K pay day for someone and a bit of info on the ones to look out for below:

    I have this morning trotted around a parkrun (my last run was last week's parkrun), so I feel I'm raring to go now, and hoping to get out for a 6-8 miler tomorrow to see how I feel.  Parkrun have a promotion at the moment where if you run 8 parkruns in a row over a set period (today being the second week) you're in with a shot at getting a London marathon place, so I'm going for that.  I expect the odds of getting a place are very remote, but I thought I'd give it a go.  I've still got a chance through my Club as well, but won't find out about that until December.

    Carl - how did you get on this morning?  Did you get under that 23 min target?

  • Hello all. Good to hear carter enjoying his holiday- I'm not jealous no not a bit. image

    And interesting to hear everyone else debating different aspects of our running. 

    I am just returned from my third attempt at parkrun where I got a new PB of 23:01. Well chuffed with that and now have something to a for in getting under 23. Tough day though- freezing and windy! Brrrr.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    Ali - messages crossed.  Well done on the parkrun image  I enjoy my "local" course, but it's an offroad course and very slippery when wet.  I'm thinking about getting a pair of offroad running shoes, but that's unchartered territory for me so don't really know where to start.  I'll be going along to a local running shop when I can, to try some out.

    I meant to mention in my earlier messagr, but does anyone on here listen to Marathon Talk?  In the last episode there is an interview with Ronnie O'Sullivan (the snooker player) and the second part will be on this week's 200th episode of the show.  Ronnie's 10K time is sub-35mins, so he's pretty quick!  I may get his book (called "Running") to see what it's all about.

  • Hi G, posts crossed indeed!

    My local course in Aberdeen 'should' be flat ie. it's along a beach so you'd expect a nice easy run.  But it moves 3 times from the upper promenade to the lower promenade during the course of the run, meaning you have to do a short sharp hill either up or down, and then there are a couple of little rises and falls on the way along the lower promenade too where the footpath dips at structural points where roads go off from the promenade.

    It is quite a torturous course in my mind as it is very windy and exposed along the beach which is OK in summer but it was freezing today.  And as I mentioned before- no KM markers which I find really hard!!!  As with the last time I did it, today I didn't look at my watch once on the way around.  I had literally no idea how I was doing at all and actually felt like I was quite slow as I have a bit of a cold, my breathing is very laboured, and my legs were achy.

    So to get to the finish and see my watch was a nice treat.  Official time now up is 23:02 so that's 56 seconds faster than last time I did the Aberdeen run and 16 seconds faster than my previous PB at the Edinburgh run.

    Oh I never knew Ronnie O'Sullivan was a runner!  That is so interesting and he is a good runner too!!!  Accomplished (if troubled) guy...  I have now done a bit of googling and would be interested in reading his book too!

  • PS 8th female today at parkrun- which sweetens the deal even more to have got into the top 10!  Aberdeen is not a particularly fast parkrun as that time if I did it in Edinburgh would see me a good deal further down the rankings but still feels nice.

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Ali - fantastic running from you today and a PB as well. You seem to be really enjoying your running at the moment. Now you just need to focus on finding 3 seconds amd then you are sub 23. Fab job.

    Big G - good to hear you are back and refreshed. Sounds like you had a nice trot around your parkrun. I jave dropped in and out of Marathon Talk a few times. Did not realise that Ronnie was a better runner than me !! Never thought of the snoorker types as runners before ....

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Weather was nice for parkrun this morning. Sun was out and althought a little chilly this did not matter. Loads of tress down in the Heath after the strorm on Monday. Real shame to see some very well established trees broken up on the ground.

    Today I got the sub 23 monkey off my back.

    Came home in 22:37. I was 37th overall. Normally about 140 - 150 runners take part.

    I knew during the first mile that I was on for a good time. I completed this in 7:02 and felt better than normal at that point. Had to push hard on mile 2 and finished this in 7:28. I was dying at this point but knew that if I could keep it together I might scrape in under 23 mins. Mile 3 really hurt as I pushed up the hills and finished this in 7:35. Crossed this line and there was nothing left. I think I was bent over double for quite a few minutes afterwards. Not a pretty sight. I was passed by a few runners in teh last few hundred yards as I had nothing left to give.

    Really pleased with that. Cannot see me being able to get much more off that time on this course.

    And like Big G, I am still in with a chance of going into the draw for that single VLM place. I need to take part for the next 6 weeks to be in the draw. This might be a challenge and some of them will most certainly have to be trots around the course.


  • Afternoon all. I'm just sat on the beech in the glorious sunshine staring out at a lovely blue/green sea. I'm getting to the 'beered out' stage now so didn't make it for a run, went for a full English instead image They had storms here all last week but we have fallen lucky as it's been gorgeous from the moment we arrived, no doubt it will be a shock to the system when we land home on Monday. I've been reading The Art of Running Faster and have had plenty of time to come up with a training plan til the end of the year when I will start my plan for my spring marathon. I think I will go for Manchester, has anyone else got thoughts about their spring marathon ? Right, off to the bar. Laters

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Carter - I am still undecided on my spring race. I would like to conquer Paris having not been able to finish strong there this year. But Paris is early being 6th April. I am half thinking of Edinburgh and with my OH having initially given me the all clear with it being half term - we were planning a couple of days there with the kids - but she is now talking about going abroad. 

    So still in the undecided camp.


  • Lots of good parkrunning! Well done on PB Ali - I am still a Parkrun virgin! Good job on the sub 23 Carl.

    Nell - my legs were feeling pretty much back to normal yesterday although the left hip/glute is still a bit sore however no worse than the day before Dublin I suppose! I am giving myself a full week off - planning a recovery run on Monday. How are you feeling - any running yet?

    I haven't thought of a Spring Marathon yet to be honest unless I get into London thru club ballot that is. Still gutted about missing out on Berlin next October - 4 of us from the club entered the ballot and 3 got in - I didn't! Odds are quite good compared to London - 40000 places for 70000 ballot entrants image .... however I still have a slim chance in the repechage (people who don't take up their places in the next 2/3 weeks)

    I am toying with the idea of Clonakilty back to back marathons in February .... the challenge of two marathons in two days appeals more to me than an Ultra for some reason. The plan would be an easy pace of over 4 hrs on Day 1 to hopefully make the start line on Day 2! But if not there's always the bar on Saturday night - win win really?!

  • Morning all,

    Carl, well done on the Park run.  Ive still not done one, everytime I think about it something else comes up on the Saturday morning to do with the kids or OH.(youngest ones 1st Bday yesterday) but will get there eventually.

    As you know, my Spring race is sorted with my Brighton entry.  Ive heard lots of good things about the race so really looking forward to it if the training all goes well. But I also have an eye on Abingdon next October as its right on my doorstep and flat as a pancake.


    Had to shorten my run today to 7miles so I could be back for the OH to go out.  But pace was good, although felt slow at times. splits were

    8.15, 8.11, 7.55, 8.01, 7.49, 7.43, 8.34 quite pleased as I don't push myself on my weekend runs in terms of pace, so to still average around 8 min miles was good.


  • Carl- congrats on your new parkrun time that's a big improvement.  Is it a 5k PB too or just for parkrun?  You pushed hard.

    G- loved your beer photo- that's what holidays should look like.

    Carter- totally wish I could get some sunshine this time of year.  It's blooming freezing here, you're going to get a fright when you're back!

    Ricky- the idea of 2 marathons back to back scares the bejesus out of me!!!  But it's a would be a massive sense of achievement after!

    Andrew- if you can get to parkrun sometime they are fab and a great way to do a race/push yourself for free, I mean how many events can say that?!  Amazing what they put on with the volunteers.  And the Aberdeen race is excellent for getting results done quickly- a couple of hours and you've got an official time and rankings.  I wish I could go to more.

    Today I am meant to do a long run but MAY push it back to tomorrow as I went out last night for a friend's 30th and whilst not hungover today (didn't drink a ridiculous amount) am very very tired!!!  I don't get out often and I'm not used to it!!!  Oh well, I'll see what I can do later.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    Ha ha, Ali.  I edited out the beer photo as I thought it may not have been appropriate to flaunt it on this thread image

    However, here it is again.  There were many similar to this to choose from after my break in Bruges image  


    My wife made some flemish stew (a Bruges speciality) last night with one of the many Belgian beers I brought back with me image

    I also love the parkruns and Carl, I won't push it on every one either.  Last weekend I trotted around very slowly but really enjoyed it as it gave me a chance to thoroughly take in what is a scenic route in a National Trust place (Killerton in Exeter).

    I need to think about a plan to get a good base between now and Xmas.  I haven't yet got a Spring marathon booked up as I really want to do London again.  I have about a 1 in 3 or 4 chance via my club, and a very slim chance should I complete 8 parkruns.   I know I probably won't get a place in London and have a couple of more local ones in mind.

    Other than that, I have booked in for two half marathons with one in February and one in March.  The one in March is where I got my 1hr42min PB this year, so that is an "A-race" for me.  I'm also debating doing my club's championship but can't decide that until the races are published.

    Just got back from a nice 6-miler and managed to time it to dodge the rain.  I'll be settling in to watch the NYC marathon later, and I'm desparately trying to not think about going back to work tomorrow, after my week off!

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Its windy out there today. At times it felt as if I was not really moving.

    Ali - my only ever timed 5k's races have been my recent parkruns. So yes it is an official PB.

    Big G - great photo. Looks like you really enjoyed the holiday and no doubt have benefited by the downtime.

    Agrre with you that now is the time to really get a solid base together. Last year I got going in November but with lowish mileage and then when I went to turn up the dial around Christmas with me running an early spring marathon in Paris, early April, was a bit of a challenge.

    I think the other thing about building the base is about getting some quality running in. It is not so much about the miles but more about the quality. I am going to be targetting 30 - 35 miles per week each week between now and the end of the year. Deppending on which marathon I select I might need to increase this mileage mid December.

    Ali - agree the parkrun is an amazing event. It is far better organised than some other events that charge you for the pleaseure. I now have one of the plastic cards with my barcaode. I always get a text with my result by mid morning on the Saturdau with an email later in the day. Really great service. There were 194 runners at my parkrun yesterday. I think that for the next few weeks I am going to take it a little easier and then go for it again towards the end of the month.

    Andrew - great to hear from you again. 3 times in a week. Must be a record image.

    It is not always easy to get out every week for the parkrun. It is 9am on a saturday and with kids there is usually something going on. I have been fortunate the last few weeks that I have not had to go to footie (with him still recovering from his broken elbow) so wil have to see how I cope with this when he returns. Like Big G I do not expect to win the single VLM place that is on offer. But you have to be in it to win it as they say.

    Good pace from your run today.

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Managed a good 6 miles today with about a 2 mile c/d.


    Initially my legs were a little tired after yesterdays efforts on the hils at my parkrun but once I had knocked that out of them I felt good and decided that I would push the run a little.

    My splits were : 8:14; 8:46; 7:53;  7:42; 7:40 and 7:35.

    Overall 7:58 min/mile for a 6 mile outing.

    It was so much colder out there today and very windy. Hopefully I do not need to start wearing the winter gear for a little while longer.

    Have been thinking about getting one final race in this year to see can I get my HM PB down under 1:40.

    I have found one in Bedford on Sunday 8th December. It is a bit of a drive but under an hour. This is what the event organiser says about it on the RW website.

    The Bedford Harriers Half-Marathon is usually the last half-marathon run in the UK each year. The race is run around quiet country roads. Though the course is undulating in parts, fast times and PBs are certainly possible.  The race incorporates the Beds AAA County Championship. There is a three-hour time limit on the race.

    It is only £19.50 to enter so that is not too bad. Says that 2000 people entered it last year.

    It seems to be a full road race which is what I would want. Alot of races this time of year tend to be mixed surfaces and I am not too keen on that.

    Very tempting.

    Would need a bit of focus for the next 4 weeks or so to be i good shape for this. Need to find out what the profile of the route looks like. Could be worth a shot.

    I will sleep on it. image



  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Ricky - you must be unhinged if you are seriously thinking about back to back marathons. Clonakilty is a wonderful place. Some great pubs. But a marathon along the coast image in February image.

    And then another the following day.

    Got some pictures to give you a feel for what you will be letting yourself in for.


     It is absolutely lovely scenery but the course is littered with hills. Last 5 miles are flat through the marshes though so if you could manage it it would be a fast finish !!!!!!!

    What kind of training plan would you need for this ?

  • Well if we get a day (2 of) like in that photo we'll be grand image

    I quite like the thought of running for pure experience & enjoyment and not feeling the need to push hard for a PB. Training hmmmm - normal marathon training I suppose with the focus on endurance -  Long Runs at slower than my current MP

    Good brisk 6 miler Carl - you certainly have a sub 1.40 HM in you..... 7.30 a mile x 13 is all that is required Sir! If you are going to give Bedford a go then I would suggest trying to get at least one quality LT run in, that you were doing in P&D, per week in the meantime.

    Nice Beer BigG image

    Quite looking forward to getting my first run in tomorrow since Dublin image

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Riicky - it is a lovely part of the world and as you say if you get nice weather it would be a wonderful experience. The only way to get through it would be to run for enjoyment (now this might be an oxymoron considering you are running 2 marathons in 2 days).

    With the endurance you have built up this year you could do it if you go slow and steady. I think you would need to be running day 1 at about 60 seconds slower than your current MP to have a chance of being able to get to the start line on day 2.

    Day 2 would then be a case of grin and bear it and see what the legs would do.

    If you decide to do it, we will support you and get you through it. Might need Oirish to write you a few stories to read in advance so that you can be thinking about them and nothing else.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    Ricky, I think I have mentioned a person called Shades on here a couple of times.  Her thread (Shades Marathon Training) and this thread are the two threads I check daily (usually several times a day!).

    I know Shades loves Clonakilty, which is why I thought I'd mention it here image

    A bit of background is that Shades has now ran over 300 marathons.  I joined her thread about this time last year and I didn't know anything about her when I joined; I was just looking for a simple marathon training plan and saw that her thread had been going since 2005 so I joined in.  Funnily enough, it turns out she lives about 2 miles from me so I've met her a couple of times as well.

    Anyway, a few years ago she did a 10-in-10 and RW did an editorial about her.  That's here:


  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    Carl - for info, I just rechecked and parkrun have two places for the London Marathon.  That's you and me sorted thenimage

    "Each week those that miss their 9am Saturday parkrun will drop out of the race, with the two marathon places drawn from the group of the last runners left standing."



  • G- beer is never inappropriate, those kind of photos are what holidays should be made of!!!

    Carl- could be nice to get in a HM in december- go out with a bang and finish the year with a race...sometimes it feels like ages that you don't get to race over winter.

    Ricky- I guess I can understand the appeal of the back to back marathons when you've explained it... I mean it's similar to the idea I have that I'd love to do an ultra (a shorter one nevertheless) because the sheer feeling of achievement in doing something I enjoy would be great, I wouldn't care about doing it fast but just to say I'd done it and enjoyed it.

    So I didn't get my long run in yesterday- Saturday night had been the first night out I'd had in ages so I don't regret it but I did remember how hard it is to make yourself feel like doing anything on little sleep/a good few drinks.

    So I just pushed it back to today. I had actually planned to do 10-11 today, as I did a week past , getting in some decent runs near HM length.  But I am sad to say I just couldn't do it.  I got in 8.5 in the end.

    Took off on a hilly route, did take off nice and slow, but as soon as I got a mile in I could tell it was going to be hard.  It was freezing, rainy, and extremely windy and it felt truly miserable.  I half thought about turning back after doing just a couple of miles but did keep going.  Got in a couple of miles at HM pace but the weather was just so revolting I felt a bit of a failure in the end for succumbing.

    I think that I will do a similar length run tomorrow as it will help me feel better and I won't feel the need to do a longer run if I do 2 mid length ones instead.

    Is anyone else finding it hard running in some of the horrible weather just now?

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