RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00



  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Andrew - great to hear that you are still out there and managing to surpass most of us with that 20 miler on a treddie !! (I would put a smiley in but they are not working for me). Only person who beats you is Stuart but them when he is away on the rig he has no choice. If I hogged a treddie for 3 hours at my gym I think I would get barred !!

    Anyway good running from you. You seem to be doing just fine.

    I  chose the race knowing it was 3 or 4 laps so was not that bothered about boredom beforehand. With the wind playing havoc with me I could have used some company even if was just people to focus on to keep me going. This worked well during lap 2 as I moved through the field but on lap 3 it was just me and the guy ahead of me was too far to even think about catching.

    Carter - gels on a half. Well they say that if you are marathon training you should practice the routines in the warm up races. So taking gels under race conditions is key to understanding how your gut will react in a race. Also I think once you get over 10 miles at a fast race pace (unless you are a semi pro athlete) you probably need it to give you that kick over the last few miles. With the wind sapping my energy I definitely needed themin any event. Will make sure I have them the next time.

    And what is this about you not having entered a spring marathon. Thought you were all sorted for Manchester ... Good mileage. I have not got above 40 yet !!

    Canter - running any kind of race sole is slightly mad. 13 miles at HM pace is definitely up there. People must have been looking at you a bit funny ...

    Was well chuffed with the result yesterday but better be quiet as we have a few people from north of the border on here. They might not notice....

    Funny I have considered the Connemara marathon but it looks a bit tough and is not really a PB type race. So maybe next year if I have secured my slightly crazy dream of getting a Boston qualifier time.

    Ali - good steady running from you at the moment. I think you have got to a great place to start your marathon training. Keep it up.

    Nell - sounds like you had done enough in any case that a recovery run was not necessary. I do not do them every week. Enjoyed it this week but it is not an essential.

  • Just realised I missed your post before Big G and just saw it now.

    smashing time for a 5 miler. Don't think I've done one of those before. And almost spot on in prediction of time after your 5k. I always seem to find for some reason that my times as predicted on race calculators like McMillan are slower the higher up in distance I go.

    good running everybody!

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ali, I get the too with McMillan. However, the way McMillan works is that the higher mileage times are what is possible if people have trained properly for that higher distance. So if a person has trained specifically for a half marathon but not done any longer runs (for example) then they won't get the McMillan time for the marathon. I read it is a guide as to what is possible if trained for the higher distance.

    In practice, many people (myself included) get PBs at the shorter distances on the way to a marathon because the training for the marathon helps the shorter distances, but not necessarily the other way around.

    McMillan also assumes the route profile and other conditions between the two events are comparable. So if a person runs a fast half on a flat course it does not mean they will run the predicted time on a hilly marathon.
  • Hi Carter, That's good if you feel no pain when rolling the ITB you are in a good place. I use a Grid Roller which is pretty good. I think Big_G uses one of those Beast rollers (is that right Big_G? I may have you mixed up with someone else) I haven't brought myself to using one of those yet...hard core! I use the spikey ball on my glutes that does the trick too ;0)

    Not sure with the pain in the other knee, that could be down to a number of factors. Biomechanic Imbalance, I take it you still have kept up a high cadence to keep your feet underneath you and are not heel striking? Maybe you are compensating for the one knee and giving the other a heavy time...hard to say I am afraid Carter, usually the physio can pick these things up after giving you a good going over!

    Hi Big_G, are you still running at the moment or have you now taken up swimming? Looks pretty awful down your way at present...

    Hi Carl, I hear you on the gels. I use them in training when I get into the long runs. I might take one to the next HM and take it about mile 9-10. And I could well imagine they were needed in your case last weekend fighting the wind!


  • Wimped out of the hill reps this morning and just ran 5 miles. Got a nice pace going and felt pretty comfortable until the last mile home when it is mainly all uphill..ahhh.

    ran 4.95 miles in 37:23, 7:36,7:18,7:26,7:34,7:29. I was pretty pleased with not losing too much on the last mile as it is a not very nice hill to finish on (to put it politely!).

    That is the first run of the schedule completed, I will go back to the hill reps tomorrow morning ;0)

  • Cheers Nell.

    So I'm in a bit of a quandary at the moment.

    Training is going really well at the moment but I am suddenly unsure about what my MP should be. So far, I've been training towards a pace of 8:35 which is a 3:45 marathon. Or so I thought. I've reviewed my stats and it turns out that I have been running my MP miles at about 8:10 per mile. My 20 on Saturday included 10 @ 8:10 and while it was of course hard going it didn't feel bad.

    This may well be me being naive but I am currently unsure of what MP I should train for and then go with on race day. The options are:

    - stick to my 9:00 miles and 'definitely' achieve my original target of 4:00 hours (I don't really feel that this is an option anymore)

    - go with 8:35 miles where I am pretty confident I can achieve this on race day

    - go for 8:15 miles which will get me about a 3:35 finish. Do I have time to train for this pace for Manchester ? I was thinking that I might go on a long run (20 miles) in a couple of weeks and run it all at 8:15 and see what happens. This, of course, could be a very stupid thing for me to do but I think that if I go for it and it doesn't work out I still have time to recover from that run and get back to training for 8:35 pace.

    Any thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated from you more experienced marathoners.

  • Ali – that session went as planned. It turned out to be the equivalent of a PB for HM distance, but as it wasn’t under ‘official’ conditions I’ll just console myself that I just need to repeat the feat again next month in the Surrey HM. No pressure!

    I completely agree with your view that it is mind over matter, and if you can stay in a positive frame of mind and keep those negative gremlins at bay then you’re more than half way there.

    Carl – I dunno about any funny looks : I had the blinkers on!

    Can you clear up a question on Boston – are the qualifying age group bands as at when you run the qualifying time, or are they at the date of the Boston race itself?

    Carter – sorry to hear of those past injuries. It must have been very frustrating (and costly!) not to make the starting line. I trained for and failed to make the start on two occasions through injury, before it being third time lucky in 2011.

    Fingers crossed for you this time round.

  • Carter- my advice is only very experience based so please do listen to others too.  But if you can manage a couple more runs with a decent proportion at MP/8:15, then I'd go for that pace for your marathon.  Looking back at my training plan I used for Edinburgh (my first) and Loch Ness (my third) which I'm following this time too, I only did 5 miles at MP in my long runs (apart from HMs during the period which were obviously faster)... yet I still had the confidence to do the whole thing at MP on the day.  In fact when I trained for Edinburgh my target time based on training was just sub 4:30 and I did 4:04 on the day.  There is something different on race day, and if you really are well enough rested from your taper and have looked after yourself, you will have every chance of pacing yourself well to your ideal time. 

    Canter- I think that's amazing you got a HM PB by yourself.

    Yesterday I never got out for my hill run because my boyfriend persuaded me to stay in and eat instead.  So I did it today after work.  Just over 6 miles in total though don't have exact pace as the Garmin didn't find location until about a mile into the run.  But I think it ended up about 9:30 pace, including approx 20 minutes warm up to the hill, 8 hill reps fast up and recovering on the jog down, then a cool down as I made my way home.  Rather enjoyed it despite hail stones and rain.

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    More gales and rain tonight. I did get a run in quite late. Will look at the stats tomorrow.

    When will it all end ........


  • Last night looked really nasty outside, was due to run a steady 8 miles but used it as a reason to have a lazy evening.  The other reason is that the wife has recently rejoined a gym for the first time since before our first child was born (about 4 yrs) and so have been trying to work in a time for her to go and me stay with the kids.  Feel very guilty now for not doing it, will make sure I do my 8 miles with 800m intervals tonight (possibly at the gym if this weather keeps up!) then tomorrows run may be 8 instead of the 6 I have planned. But as this is meant to be a recovery week in my schedule anyway, Im not feeling too bad about missing a run.

    Carter, im having the same questions regarding my MP, I ran at around 8m/m pace for my 13 out of 16 at MP on sunday but that felt really quite tough going by the end.  I think I will try and set out at 8.15-8.20 pace with a review at half way attitude, if im feeling strong keep going/push on and if not, drop pace to 8.30.  It all worries me as my previous two marathons I have aimed for 10.00m/m in the first and 9,00 in the second.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    Nell, yes the weather here is bad.  The 5-mile race I did on Sunday currently at least partly underwater.  I don't know if you know it, but there is a train line between Newton Abbot and Exeter that goes along the seawall for a bit of it by Dawlish.  Well, some of that has been washed away and the line is closed.  Loads of trees down etc.

    Nell, I don't have the "beast" roller, but I do use a foam roller.  I also have something called a Marathon Stick, which helps with some massage as well.

    Carter - I'm not sure what to say about your marathon pace.  Obviously the training is going very well so good luck on whatever you decide.

    I mentioned a few posts ago that last week I had slipped a bit whilst out running and tweaked my hip.  I thought it had gone, but I had an unplanned rest day yesterday and need another one today as it has turned into more than just an irritation.  I have the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook by Clair Davies (which is a great book by the way) and I think it's my left Gluteus Minimus or Piriformis.  The recommended treatment is massage with a tennis ball against the wall, so I'll give that a go, or get my wife to stick her elbow in there to inflict the pain (errrm, I mean treatment!).  

    As I type this, I can't see me running again until the weekend at the earliest although I do need to keep moving as sitting at a desk job doesn't help at all - in fact it's one of the worst things to be doing according to this book.

  • Have swapped my 10m MSR today for tomorrow's scheduled rest day, due to adverse weather conditions. Got soaked doing the equivalent last week, but more concerned about getting blow away today! 

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Managed to sneak out at lunchtime today and despite the very strong wind and rain got 8.5miles in. image Ran out an back along the river paths. Busy here in London today will limited tube service. Will be back later ....

  • Another treadmill run tonight.  Had to do a parents evening at work so didn't leave until half seven and there was no chance of me going out to run in the wind we currently have!

    started with a 2 mile steady warm up at 9.10 pace, then did 6 x 800m at 6.22 min/mile with 2 and half mins recovery at 10 min/mile pace.  On the final split I upped the final 300m to 5.10 min/mile pace then finished with about 1.5mile cool down at 9.10 pace again.  8 miles total.

    hope no one is getting blown away out there!

    Big G, sorry to hear about your injury fingers crossed for you.

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Big G - hopefully some rest will sort out your injury. Will keep fingers crossed for you.

    Andrew - well done for getting the run in despite everything else and the wind. Did I mention the wind. It is a tad windy. When is the wind going to go away.

    Carter - the question of pace. It is a very personal decision. Your aim is to finish and come in sub 4. Anything else is a bonus. Running 8:10 - 8:15 pace in training runs is one thing. Doing it for 26.2 miles is another. Not saying you cannot do it 'cos maybe you can. But that is an awful lot more stress to carry around along with trying to keep the injury at bay. My advice is aim for a sub 3:45 which is around 8:30 pace. We all (me included) get slight delusional about how fast we can run on race day. Best get your goal and if you can negative split on the day great. If you cannot you do not need to worry as you have set a sensible finish goal. Otherwise you are playing witha potential 'blow up' and maybe not getting the sub 4. It is really tough and I know you have a great time in you. You have managed the injury really well and stayed focused and stuck with it. Just want you to get a good time.

    My 8.5 miles today was at 8:23 min/mile pace. This was a bit faster than planned but it was at lunchtime and I was probably pushing the boundaries a little. Really enjoyed it despite the weather and might start to incorporate this into my weekly schedule. Clearly not as much recovery time from last nights exertins but overall it felt good.

    Last night I did 16 x 200m sprints along with a mile w/u and c/d.

    Splits for the 200m sprints were :

    46s; 48s; 46s; 44s; 46s; 42s; 45s; 45s

    45s; 44s; 44s; 43s; 43s; 42s; 41s; 41s

    Compared to last week i knocked 35sec off the overall time for the 200m sprints. 

    I was trying for 40s on the last sprint and thought I nailed it but clearly did not quite manage it.

    Considering it was late (finished just before 10pm) and the race on Saturday that is an effort I am pleased with.

    My plan does not have me doing 200m sprints again until race week. Pity as I really enjoyed this distance.

    Getting late. Time for some zzzzzzzzz's...........

    Parents are supposed to be arriving tomorrow for a few days. They are getting anxious about the weather. Need to work out how I get the miles iin while they are here without getting into too much trouble.  

  • Carl - they are lightening 200s, great stuff. I'm not sure how important it is that you vary the distance of the intervals you run so maybe you could include this session in more frequently ? 

    Andrew – your 800s were pretty sharp too, do you find it easier to run intervals on the treadmill ?

    Big_G – take it easy, rest, roll, stretch etc

    Right, thanks for the comments everyone. Despite the fact that I'm running well in training, I have yet to experience how it feels in a race situation. I think I need to experience that first before I start messing around with my pace. So, I am going to stick with 8:30 pace and see how I go.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    Carl/Andrew - thanks.  It does seem much better today, but I'm still not going to go out today as I don't want it to flare up again.  Yesterday I did some pretty intensive session on the hip with the tennis ball and moved around as much as I could at work and it does seem to be better this morning.  Yesterday morning it was quite sore just walking around, but this morning it does seem a bit better.

    Carl, another couple of great sessions there.  What is the Boston qualifying time for you?

    I did go along to the club session last night, but only to hand a form in for our club trip. Everyone else was there limbering up raring to go for whatever session they were going to do on and I had to skulk back out the door to my car.  I'll be back to it soon though, I hope!

    It's our club's AGM soon and the "press and publicity" role has come up, so I've stuck my name down for that and have got the two required signatures to be nominated.  It's not guaranteed that I'll get the role, but I'd like to become a bit more involved in the club so this seems a good way of doing that.  We'll see what happens there.  

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    Cross post with you there Carter.  Yes, I'm doing all I can with the stretching etc.  It does seem to be helping as well.

    Good decision there on the pace I think Carter.  I think if you get to 20-miles and feel good you can press on, but if you go out too quickly there is a chance you could blow up and then be disappointed.  What's the route profile of Manchester?  Pretty flat isn't it?  With all those hills you're doing in training, it may make a flat marathon seem easier on the day, but a lot of people say that the marathon starts at the 20-mile mark so I'd keep that in mind on race day; try and get there in good shape and then press on if you're able to.  Finishing strong is always a much better feeling than finishing weak (I know this from bitter, bitter experienceimage ).

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    (That's very strange - when I checked earlier, Carter's post was after my first one of the two above.  Now, both of my posts are after Carter's.  Ho hum).

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    The gremlins are alive and well .......

  • And you all thought I was mad.... It's definitely gremlins I tell you!!! 

    Will catch up on things later on today but great speed going on all round it seems! I might have to do some intervals later to catch up with you all!!

  • Hi Guys, Just a quick catch up. Prety busy at the moment

    Carter, I think 8:30 is more realistic. I was running around that pace for my LSR's for the last marathon. I don't think running 20 at 8:15 would be good....

    Hi Carl, Good running at the moment. You must be feeling strong just now?

    Hi Andrew, You seem to be getting back into the flow...

    Hi Big_G, Yes I do indeed remember that stretch of railway that has been taken away. I used to run down that stretch back towards Dawlish Warren. I do remember that it did get cut off by the tide on a calm day!

    Seems some good runnning all round at the moment and I think myself and Ali are the only ones escaping the really bad weather you guys are getting. Although it has been mostly wet and windy I have still managed to get out and not had to retreat to the treadmill thankfully. Ran 5 miles Tuesday and then hill reps on Wednesday, I forgot how hard they can be! Playing footie tonight and then may go out for a recovery run of 4 miles in the morning.

  • Hi all

    Andrew and Carl both doing some great intervals.  My intervals tend to be kind of vague...I don't tend to time each interval, I normally do them by time rather than distance (unless I am visiting the one park in Aberdeen which has a marked track of 500m just outside it) but can measure by distance if running on the treadmill.

    Carter- 8:30 a sensible decision and I have no doubt from your form so far you'll have a great time at your first mara image

    G- sorry you're injured image hope it doesn't keep you down for long.  Sure you'll take best care possible of yourself as you seem knowledgeable about what you should/shouldn't do!

    Nell- you're right, the weather has been horribly wet and a bit windy here but nothing compared to England, such a shame!

    Tonight I was meeting my old work friend who I quite often go to the gym with, we went for a run outside and we did the furthest run she's ever done which was 10k.  I was really proud of her.  Had to take it really slow and did it in 11 minute mile pace but that was really fine by me because I had planned today to be a nice easy day for me anyway (my legs are still a bit achy from hills on Tuesday!).  So that was a great way to catch up with a friend and encourage her on her running journey.

    Tomorrow I have on my plan to do intervals so I think I will head to Hazlehead Park which has a 500m track outside it and do them there.  It's meant to be 800m intervals so not sure how exactly I'll do it... (this track is just one straight line not a round circular track) but I'll figure something out.  

    I am really chuffed I'm in week 3 of my plan, everything pretty much done to schedule, and feeling really strong image

  • Oh and after my run I did a short gym workout including abs, some weights, and deadlifts.

  • Big_G – good luck with getting on the committee. How is the injury feeling today, good enough for a weekend run ?

    Nell – while we have had some pretty rubbish weather here it is nothing compared to the guys on the south coast. I find running in strong winds and heavy rain ok but after doing it for 6/7 weeks it does get a bit monotonous. The trails/fells have been really bad so most of my running at the moment is on roads. That said, I’m hitting the trails tomorrow.

    Ali – gremlins ? Nah, definitely user error image You are getting back in to the marathon training quite nicely with some good sessions. When is your HM (Airdrie ??)  

    So, I’ve settled on 8:30 pace for race day. I guess I need to get one under my belt to experience how it feels first. I’ve been a bit tired this week so taken it quite easy so far. After my long run with MP at the weekend I went for a 12 miler @ 30 seconds quicker than MP on Tuesday. This was too much for me so soon after such a hard session and the legs felt tired, so I’ve only done 15 miles so far this week. Tomorrow, however, sees me doing a recce of the Grindleford Gallop route, the warm up race I am running 4 weeks before Manchester. It’s a 21 mile trail race with a few climbs so treating it as a long run tomorrow.   

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    Carter - user error!  How very dare you!  You're probably right thoughimage

    Yes, I'm hoping to get out today after work, having not ran since Monday.  The hip issue does seem to have cleared up and I probably could have done a run yesterday evening, but I decided to stick to my own plan of not running and to take another day off as a precaution.  I'll keep up with stretches etc, and ease off if I get the problem again.  As I type though I think it's safe to go out so I'll give it a go at a nice steady pace, for probably just 4-6 miles.  If that holds up ok I may do a slightly longer one tomorrow but again just at a steady pace.

    Weather here in the South West is very nice today, but the forecast for the weekend looks very, very bad image

    Dawlish was on the national news yesterday - I can't see them repairing that train line any time soon, which is the main line down to Plymouth and into Cornwall.  It's a stunning section of rail on a day like today, but it's very exposed to the bad conditions we've had recently.  It's a favourite running route of mine as well as it's flat and you can pretty much do an out and back route for more or less whatever mileage you want.

  • Someone (Carter I think it may have been you) asked me a couple of weeks ago about my previous training programme for the first time I’d run a marathon in 2011.

    I couldn’t really remember, but I’ve since rediscovered my training record that I’d uploaded at the time onto Garmin connect (technology eh!)

    Made for interesting and surprising reading and was certainly not how I remembered it.

    I had been following a Hal Higdon Beginners schedule planning to get around in 4 hours and a bit. The weekly mileage was in the high 20’s on average, peaking one week at 40 miles, with one long run of 20 miles and only 3 runs in the total programme over 16 miles.

    Turns out I was running the LSRs at 8.45m/m the ones up to 16 miles, and the rest at 9.30m/m.

    My average in the marathon was 8.55m/m. I’m sure what that all means in terms of pacing discussions, except that the ‘shorter’ LSRs were maybe a bit too quick and the longest was not quite within the recommended 60sec -90sec per mile slower range.

    What surprised me looking back was that even though the mileage relative to now was quite a bit lower it all seemed just as difficult to fit in as it does now!


    Had a lovely 7m run at lunchtime today in bight sunshine. Made a nice change.

  • Evening all.

    you are all very cheeky about 'user errors'. It is well known that I don't make errors, ever.

    I have been reading about Dawlish on the news G- is that where you're from?

    I had planned my five mile session with intervals outside today but it got freezing here in the evening and it turns out I didn't really bring weather appropriate running gear for outside with me to work, so I made the most after I finished and did it on the treadmill at the gym instead. Watched some TV on my iPad and ended up doing 5.6 miles on there which actually passed really quick. Then had a really good stretch and some weights.

    I am looking set to do 35 miles this week if all goes to plan with tomorrow and Saturdays runs. Happy with the thought of that!

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭

    Ali, I live about 8 miles from Dawlish.  My club regularly meets up at Dawlish Leisure Centre to run up towards Exeter as if you want a flat run with different mileage options for different people, it's perfect for that.  In fact, people were going to be meeting up there today, but have changed the plans due to the issues.  It's a stunning bit of track as the views are fantastic in good weather, but it's obviously very exposed.  Brunel didn't think that one throughimage 

    I got a slow 4.5-miler after work yesterday.  I think everything seems okay, although I'm looking for things that may not be there (if that makes sense).  I'm going to try another run this morning to see how I get on.  Not sure of length of run, but I'll see when I get out there as it's blowing a gale at the moment image

  • Hi Big_G, I must agree I enjoyed running that stretch when we were down that way a few years ago...

    Hi Carter, Yes the rain and wind do get tiresome..

    Hi Ali, good running this week!

    I have not retreated to the treadmill as yet, Played footie Thursday, which was a hard session and forced myself out for a 3 mile recovery run yesterday morning which I think did me good, legs were like lead though ;0( Dropped the kids off at swimming this morning and went out for a 4 mile run. I had no watch as I let my wife use it, she was heading out from the house. Pretty pleased with her as she is sticking with it and her times are now getting better! So think I was at about 8 min/mile pace this morning. Out tomorrow for 12 miles...

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