RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00



  • Cheers image
  • Carter - that's fantastic we'll done. And yes they do hurtimage

    re: your half, as I've said before, train as normal up until and including Tuesday. Wednesday do your easy pace run but shorten it a bit. Thursday do an easy run but chuck in a bit at HMP. Maybe a few 800s of a couple of 1000m. Friday and Saturday do nothing or if you prefer do 2-3 miles easy. On race day, I would do a warmup jog with a few strides to loosen you up. Aim to finish this 10-15 mins before the start. Last toilet stop and hit the start line. Aim for 7:50 - 7:55 pace for the first 10 miles. If you feel up to it, you can then speed up a bit. If not, just hang on at that pace. Easy really! Everything points to it being well within your grasp image

  • Ricky - the most important thing is that you get well and quickly. The best way to do this is to go to bed, wrap up warm, drink Lemsip and eat loads of fruit. The best way to ruin your healing process is to drag yourself outside and go for a long run. You could end up with a chest infection or worse. Forget about the training until you feel better and you're not coughing up phlegm.

  • carterusm wrote (see)

    . I dont quite understand how, this week, that all of a sudden running at between 8:00 and 8:30 seems, dare I say, relatively comfortable. Obviously it's a good thing but I still dont understand it !! image

    It's magicimage

  • Cheers for the advice on the race pace. Is there any benefit in adding any MP miles in this Saturdays LSR or wait a couple of more weeks ?
  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Carter - great running today. Really impressive splits for your intervals and then  a mile at just over 8 mins. Sounds like you could have carried on for ages.

    Bodes well for the HM.

    I did my intervals on the track after lights out tonight. Had planned to do 6 x 800 intervals but last nights late night run and another very long day at work with less sleep than normal this week meant that I knew I did not have enough in the tank to really push it.

    I did 4 x 800 intervals followed by 1 mile at MP.

    1.75 mile warm up at 9:28min/mile.

    1st 800m - 6:50 min/mile

    2nd 800m - 6:44min/mile

    3rd 800m - 6:41min/mile

    4th 800m - 6:51min/mile

    Followed by 1 mile at 8:24min/mile.

    I am pleased with this but a little tired but as I say this is more from burning the cande at both ends this week.

    It was also very windy tonight and I had to work really hard around the top bend and down the finishing straight.

    Overall 6.75miles tonight.

  • Carter - wait a couple more weeks. Nice and sloooooow......

  • Carl - marathon training is tough. You need your sleep. Otherwise it will catch up on you. I know it can be difficult. Have a think about ways round it.

  • Cracking session there also Carl - you and carter would be ideal running buds - very similar in pace & distance by the looks of things!

    (Put the kids on eBay and you'll get all the sleep u need image )
  • Okie dokie. I have a nice long, flat route planned for tomorrow. As I'm running into Rotherham for a change I expect the weather will be dull and grey, pretty much like Rotherham. Rest day today and feeling pretty good after my 3 consecutive sessions. Maybe the 3.5 days rest over last weekend has done the trick.

    Carl - on Febulous, you can enter a different length of long run for each week. Good running last night considering how tired you were. Are you planning to get some rest in over the next couple of days so you dont overdo things ?

    Ricky - hope the man flu is better. I'm sure you will be out again in a couple of days fit and raring to go. 

    Carl/Ricky - after my rest last weekend I have come back stronger. I'm beginning to come around to taking a sensible approach when tired/ill.

    Spoons - bad news on the Spring marathon front. Is it still your shins giving you grief ?


  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭
    carterusm wrote (see)

    Carl - temperature is between 8 - 18 in Paris in April according to the website I've just looked at.Is it going to be a family trip ?

    Carter - going to go solo on this trip. it would be too much for my OH to manage my 3 energetic kids in a fireigh city whilst I am strolling around enjoying myself !!!

    By all accounts temperature is nornmally an issue in Paris. Quite cold at the beginning due to the early start but then it gets very warm and suncream / sunglasses etc are recommended.

  • I've never been to Rotherham. Is it that bad?

    I've not done Paris marathon. I went there a few times when I lived in London and the temperature was pretty much the same. Expect a nice warm spring day. 

    Carter - I've pulled out due to a load of issues that start in my back and end up in other places. I know I need to build up slowly and work on my strength to get back and the pressure of a looming marathon wasn't helping my decisions. Hence I ran 14 miles last week when quite frankly I shouldn't have. 

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭
    Spoons - really sorry to hear about your troubles but as you say best to recover properly first.

    Just back in from a night out at the cinema with the OH. Much more relaxed.

    Going to get a good nights sleep and out for 20 mile LSR in the morning. Will get some MP into it.

    Covered 190 miles last month and feel really good about that.. Do not think I have ever got up to that before.

    Have ordered a garmin. Just waiting for it to be delivered. Was hoping it would have arrived today so I could have tried it out tomorrow.
  • Carter and Carl- you guys are really ramping up the miles! Well done!! I am happy with my 100 miles for January,as (as mentioned on my thread) I have some "stuff" going on at the moment. 

    Carl- Paris will be amazing!! Do you speak French? That's what I teach (along with German) so if you need some help with phrases such as "where can I buy jelly babies?" let me know!! image


  • I can ask for a beer in French....

  • And vin rouge image

  • Spoons. wrote (see)

    I can ask for a beer in French....

    Generally I find that's all you need Spoons.... along with "voulez vous couchez avec moi ce soir" of course....

  • Only une beer Spoons ? 

  • Ok. So, as good as this weeks sessions have been todays long run was as bad. 

    Apart from the first mile or so being down hill this route was pan flat. The object was to run between 9:30 and 10:00. The first four miles felt nice and comfortable speedwise but I really struggled to keep around 9:00 as it felt quite an easy pace. However, my legs felt quite heavy from the start and it didnt get any better throughout the run. At about mile 9 I started to really struggle but plodeed on. At mile 12 I came off the road and ran along the canal path hoping the surface might help me. Alas, it was muddy and plenty of puddles so this slowed me down as well so I got back on the road as soon as possible. The last 3 or 4 miles had to include a bit of walking (about 3 or 4 times for no more than 30 seconds). I stopped my watch about 1.5 miles from home as it is a steepish climb up the hill and I knew there was no way I would be able to run up it. I ended up mainly walking up it but also tried runnning slowly but could only manage about 200 yards each time as my legs were so heavy.

    So, the 16.6 miles were at an average of 9:37 which was the main objective of this run. The problem was that I had to put so much effort in to achieve it -

    Things I have learnt from todays run:

    - previously, I have never eaten before before a morning run. I think I need to change this and ensure I do eat first. I arrived home after this run and could have eaten a scabby dog. I did take some flapjack with me but I just couldnt force it down me, I just didnt feel like eating even though I was hungry.

    - I didnt take any water with me. Again, this is something else that I dont normally do but halfway around I was gagging for a drink. I will ensure that I do take some in future. I also should take some money to stop off at a shop if I get hungry/thirsty.

    - Gels. I think I am going to have to experiment with these ?

    Bearing in mind I had a few days off last weekend and this weeks sessions hsve been really good and I have recovered from them quickly, I'm hoping that todays struggle was because I didnt fuel properly.

    Spoons, thoughts ?

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭
    Carter - what a bummer after a great week. Sounds like a classic case of running out of gas from not having enough fuel on board.

    I am out at the moment so will load my stats later.

    If I am doing an easy run up to about 15 miles then as long as I have has some toast I can run without taking on any more food or water.

    Over 15 miles and I need to have stuff with me.

    If it is an easy run then I can eat and go as it is only one slice of toast but anything different or I have eaten more then I need to let it settle.

    This morning I had two slices of brown toast with marmalade and a cup of tea. Out running within the hour.

    I carried a bottle of lucozade lite and jelly tots as somebody had eaten the jelly babies.

    Started sipping the lucozade after an hour and then about every 30 minutes thereafter. Took some jelly tots after mile 14 as I was stepping up to mp from mile 15.

    I definitely could not have done this on an empty stomach.

    I would just write it off as a bad day at the office and get back in the saddle. You have got some great sessions behind you and a PB next weekend is entirely possible.

    Interested in what Spoons has to offer on gels and eating / drinking during race conditions as this is very different from a LSR.
  • Carter I'd agree with Carl - fuel & hydration issues for sure.

    In fact sounds like a carbon copy of my LSR woes last Sunday!
  • There is no way I could run that far without fuel!! I always have an energy gel at the mid way point for anything over 8 miles. I would definitely have one every 5 miles..but maybe my meagre female frame doesn't carry as much stores as all of you! image

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭
    Runningrachel wrote (see)

    Carl- Paris will be amazing!! Do you speak French? That's what I teach (along with German) so if you need some help with phrases such as "where can I buy jelly babies?" let me know!! image

    Rachel - might have to take you up on this. Languages was not my thing at school. I am travelling over by eurostar and planning to stay in a hotel between the railway station and the start / finish area. This will minimise the travel on the metro and mean that I do not have to get up too early on race day. I will probably bring all my supplies with me including my sports drink. They give out water during the marathon in bottles but the sports drink comes in cups (and I think it is gatorade - not lucozade).

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    So the details of my LSR.

    Plan was 15 miles 9:15 to 9:30 pace and the last 5 at MP (8:30).

    I took a different route today to try and eliminate some of the hills and to stay away from busy high streets.

    I covered the first 15 miles with an average pace of 9:18 min/mile. 7 of the 15 miles were slower than this and 8 faster. Some of the slower miles was due to the hills / inclines, some due to road junctions / traffic lights and 1/2 because my mind wandered.

    Took on some jelly tots after mile 14 getting ready for 5 miles of MP.

    Cannot say that these were easy. The last 2 miles of the 5 were uphill -  not steep but you felt it in the legs and I also had to negotiate a busy road junction.

    It took a little while as I kicked into the MP session to get the legs moving. Initially it felt that they were stuck in the slow motion that goes with LSR running. But I did get them going.

    The last 5 miles were as follows :

    8:12 min

    7:57 min (where did this come from ?)

    8:11 min

    8:37 min (incline and road junction)

    8:21 min

    Overall time for 20 miles was 3:00:48.

    I was wondering the whole way round how I was going to do 5 miles at MP to finish off but somehow I did and I am really pleased but tired. image

    It will be interesting to see how I feel in the morning. Have got to take my little fella to his footie match so will probably go for a recovery run in the afternoon.

    How long should a recovery run be ? 4 or 6 miles ?

  • Ok - Carl - great confidence boosting run there. Recovery run should be 4 miles tops and slow and easy. Next LSR - no MP miles - all nice and slow.

    Carter - not so confidence building but don't panic. The tough long runs build mental strength and you didn't slow at the end. What can you learn from this? Well the first 4 miles were a bit quick. Eat a decent breakfast beforehand. I have porridge. Take water with you. Try gels en route. 

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭
    The master has spoken.

    4 miles recovery later today and next weeks 20 mile LSR real slow with no MP miles. Nice.
  • A few thoughts on bonking, hitting the wall, running out of energy etc:

    Everybody, even the skinniest little elite Kenyan, has enough fat reserves to get them round 50 or so marathons no problem. In a marathon we need approx 2500-3000 calories of fuel. The problem is that if we are working above a certain effort level (this level is different for everybody and is a crucial fitness gauge for endurance athletes) the body cannot and will not use it's fat reserves as fuel. To make the problem worse, you can't just eat 3000 calories in gels and jelly babies all the way round because your body is concentrating on keeping the leg muscles moving and get's very slow at digesting.

    the answer is to do lots of training below but near to the point where your body can no longer use it's fat reserves. That way we train the body to fuel itself, and as it gets better at it, the level also rises so we can work harder whilst fuelling itself.

    It does work but it's not a quick process. This is why elites stepping up to the marathon are generally fine because they have years of running in the bank but first time marathon runners nearly always bonk at mile 18-20. 

    Hence all my comments about running at conversation pace. Also - if you go over that level and are no longer burning fat reserves, it's takes hours to dip below the line again. So if you run the first few miles of LSR quickly because it feels easy (it always does at the start) and you switch off the fat burning, you will hit the wall 1-2 hours later. 

  • Carter - have you got one of those belts with a few bottles in? You can carry half a litre of water plus a few gels or jelly babies or whatever. Have a sip every mile from the start onwards. Take a £1 coin and you can buy a drink to fill up with when you run out. Try taking a gel every hour or so, but don't go too mad. You can come to rely on the things, they cost a fortune, and they are disgusting!

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭
    Recovery run done. 3.5 miles at 9:45 mm.

    Have had sick kids in the house for the last week. Thought we were getting over it but the youngest decided that it was back with a vengeance. Have been dosing myself with extra vitamins trying to keep it away.
  • Great LSR Carl ! Things are looking really good for you.

    All u need to do is stay clear of lurgy & injuries. Easy!??

    All this spare time not running has proved expensive - just bought a treadmill today for when the weathers c**p .... and for Mrs Ricky W to play with.
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