RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00

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  • Carter...that looks a very tough course!! Congrats on your time!



    Like you, I'm still experimenting with fuelling strategies. I've suffered with stomach issues in the past so I'm still trying to get the exact strategy. Currently, I'm eating shredded wheat with a small amount of milk and a few sultanas for breakfast plus a coffee, and maybe a tea cake as well. During the race I take a 750ml bottle of Torq Energy, which is a drink you mix yourself. I also take some homemade flapjack although I didn't eat that today. I don't feel this is quite right for me, and I was hungry on the start line which I'm not sure is ideal.



    Any thoughts on the above?
  • I always have porridge oats made with semi skimmed milk and a handful of chopped apricots to sweeten it. I then eat a banana in the car on the way. I only ever drink water in races and have 1 gel at mile 7 in a half and 3 gels (7, 14, 21) in a marathon.

    I usually feel sick in races. That's nothing to do with fuel though. Just working hard. 

  • Carter - I do a hill session every Wednesday. Its a 4 odd mile run with a shortish but quite steep hill halfway in. I do 10 reps with jog down recovery. Will prob start to push the reps up to 12 or 14 as the training progresses. Even though it's short mileage wise I find it quite a tough session.

    BigG - feeling hungry on the startline certainly is far from ideal. Fuelling is a very person specific thing and I guess is, as you say, all about trial & error to find what works best. What I have found recently is that the difference between getting it right & getting it wrong is night & day. I did my LSR this morning - had porridge, Bagel with honey & cup of black coffee an hour before the run. Took 2 High-5 gels on the run (45mins in and 90 mins in) with a couple of mouthfuls of water with each gel. Drank approx 400 mls of water throughout the run - taking a mouthful on each mile split. Worked very well for me with no fatigue and feeling very strong at the end of the run. Compare that to 2 weeks ago (16 miler) where I went out on an empty stomach and drank only 100mls of water. At 13 miles I felt hungry, at 14 miles i was lightheaded at 15 miles I was spent and walk/ran the last mile home. A valuable lesson learned! 

  • Congratulations on your new PB. I know it wasnt as good as what you wanted but its still a PB, on what sounds like a horrendous course. Where was the half?

     

    Do you have another one planned before your marathon?

    Retford have a half on the 10th of March (but im not sure how flat/hilly it is)

  • carterusm wrote (see)
    Carl - cracking run sir. I think I need to rethink what time you are going to finish in. You seem to be getting stronger each week.

    Carter - no idea where the run today came for. After doing 20 miles yesterday I thought I would plod around today. But I surprised myself.

    I am not sure my HM will really help me work out what my MP should be. Having looked into it a bit more today it seems to be as hilly as the one you ran today and even has some off road stuff thrown in for good measure.

    There is no getting away from the fact that I was comfortable today.

    But can I repeat this on race day and can I keep up the pace for a HM that is not flat. No idea ?

    What does it mean for the marathon itself.

    Probably that I am getting close to being able to maintain a pace consistently over a long distance.

    Does it mean that I should adjust my marathon target. Don't know.

    I am running much further and am much stronger than this time last year. So that is good.

    But it probably means that a 3:45 target is a realistic possibility. Wheras back in December with a HM PB of 1:48 and a Marathon PB of 4:24 it probably did not look achievable.

    We have very similar paces during our speed sessions. You seem to be able to run the longer runs a little slower than me. So the question is what time do you now think you can do in Manchester ?

  • So the curtain closes on quite an eventful week of running for most of us - topped of with PB's from Carter & BigG!

    Highlight for me this week has to be putting the LSR bogeyman behind me & signing off @ 47 miles for the week.

    Looking forward to this week image

  • Nice mileage Ricky

  • Hi sarah - it was Liversedge.

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/271718564

    http://app.strava.com/activities/40421391

    I dont have another half lined up yet before April but I might try and find a flat one ! The only race I have got planned so far is the Grindleford Gallop but I think I will just take it easy on that.

    Carl - going full beans at your half may not help you with your marathon target time (due to the nature of the course) but it will certainly show you that you can give it your all for 13 miles. I find it is a great confidence booster (despite me being a bit disappointed with my time yesterday I have taken some positives from it). Are all your training runs pan flat then or do you do some hills as well ? Your marathon PB is 4:24 and you are going to absolutely smash that in Paris, will you be happy with 3:45 or are you after something better ?

    Big G - I havent done much with fuelling yet so cant really comment. After speaking to the chap at the local running shop he recommended a High 5 powder that I mix myself which is a 4 in 1 so is mean to sustain me through a long run. I have difficulty eating when running so that is why I have chosen a liquid. I will also be trying a High 5 IsoGel to give me a boost on my run. May have to chose a secluded route should the gingerbread man pay a visit image

    Ricky - excellent week with 47 miles and a positive LSR. Onwards and upwards !

  • Spoons - I'm feeling tired today, to be expected of course, so I think I will have a few days recovery. The legs are aching a fair bit and I have tight calfs. Last time it took me 3 weeks to fully recover so I was thinking an easier week so I can then focus on my LSR on Saturday. My thoughts are that I will just do easy runs and not bother with any speed sessions. Do you think this is ok or should I try and do some speedwork ?

    An interesting point you made yesterday about me not tapering for the race. Was this is a deliberate ploy by you and if so what was the reasoning for this ?

    For my LSR do I need to introduce some miles at MP yet or leave it a little longer ?

  • Snowier overnight here and it is coming down hard now. Another chlenging week ahead.



    Might have to phone Paris and ask them to ensure cold windy snowy conditions as I will die in the heat !!!
  • Congrats to Carter and Big G - sounds like some very impressive efforts, despite the grim conditions. Hope you're both feeling good today. I had hoped to go and do a recovery run yesterday after my 14+ miler on Saturday, but went away over night and forgot a crucial part of my kit. Oops. Running the Portsmouth half this week, so will aim for a week that's not too tough, but have absolutely no idea what time to expect on Sunday.

  • Morning Carter - not surprised your legs are tired today. It's probably all the Magners last night.

    re: last week - the half was only ever a training race, not the main goal. So there's no point losing training just to do better at the half. Also, running a half on tired legs gives a better training benefit for the marathon.

    re: this week - see how it goes. If you need to stick to short easy running then do so. The main thing is to get recovered ASAP. Maybe try some swimming, stretching, foam rollering, walking, cycling etc etc. Whatever helps you get mobile again. If you feel up to doing a session then do so. listen to your body. Sometimes a really short/light session can help more than just easy running. Like 3 x 200m @ 5km pace.

    re: MP in long runs. I've had a quick look at your plan going forward. We still have 10 weeks to go. I would suggest putting MP in something like this:

    10 - slow

    20 - slow

    20 - with 5 MP

    22 - slow

    10 - slow

    20 - with 8 MP

    23 - slow

    20 - with 12 MP

    14 - with 7 MP

    10 - with 5 MP

    Probably best to split up the MP miles so the 20 with 8 could be 8 slow, 4 MP, 4 slow, 4 MP.

  • Cheers Spoons, I've updated my plan.

    What about the speed sessions, any need to change them ? My thoughts are:

    Tempo - aim to run at 7:45 (rather than the 7:03 last week) but just increase the length of the tempo run ? Is there a longest length of tempo run I should be building up to ?

    Intervals - run all of these as fast as I can but mixing up the length and quantity of the intervals ? I say run them as fast as I can because last week you were on about increasing the pace anyway.

     

  • Re Intervals - Would I benefit more by running intervals in a certain order e.g. week 1 - 8x400, week 2 - 4x800, week 3 - 3x1200 etc or doesnt it really matter ? 

  • urgh 5 miles in 8.42 pace. Started way too fast with a 8.09 mile - then it started snowing, and it went pear-shaped. Tired still after Saturday's run - is that normal? Now am panicking about even breaking 2 hours in my half on Sunday

  • Hi Hannah - as this run was meant to be a recovery run following your 14+ on Saturday I would say you ran this too fast. My recovery runs are 10:00 - 10:30.

  • Thanks Carter - well oops again then! I always thought recovery runs were supposed to be the day after, does two days after still count? How are you feeling after yesterday? I really need some focus for my training? By the way, which marathon are you running? And what time are you aiming for?

  • Hi Hannah. I'm not sure about a recovery run being 1 or 2 days after to be honest. Regardless, I think it was still too fast unless it was a planned speed session image

    I'm aching today and my calfs are sore. I am sat at work trying to do some discreet stretches and will go for a gentle walk tonight and hopefully be good to go again tomorrow.

    I'm running Manchester on 28/04. My initial target was to break 4:00 hours but potentially I could be looking at nearer 3:45 but will decide nearer the time depnding on how training goes.

    What about you ?

  • Sorry to hear you're aching today, but it means you put in a good effort at least!! I have a place in London, as I had to defer last year with an injury. This will be marathon number 4 and it's always been a bit of a nemesis distance for me, as all my shorter distances suggest I should be running closer to 3.40, but my fastest is 3.53. I'm going to give it a few more weeks of training (curtailed by busy workload and small child) and make a decision in about 6 weeks, if I can run close to 1.45 for a half (have two more in the diary)

  • Do you have tempo and interval sessions in your training plan ? What HM have you got planned ?

  • To be honest, I'm only following a vague plan. So usually running four times a week, with one LSR, a couple of tempos, or build up (occasional intervals, but usually on treadmill!) and a recovery run.

    Half marathon this weekend is Portsmouth, then one in the New Forest at start of March

  • Hi all,

    It sounds that we have all been busy bees apart from yours truly. Congrats all around for a few sterling performances over the last week, I have been in hiding recovering from a sprained ankle following an unannounced rugby match with my dog image but after two incredibly frustrating weeks of moping, mumbling and as my other half so eloquently put it "arsing around the house stumbling over ya bottom lip" (Quite the poet Mrs Eyes) tomorrow morning I am back at it and CAN'T WAIT!!!!!

    I have never been so disciplined when recovering from an injury and I hope to reap the benefits.  So first thing tomorrow I am off out on an "exploratory" run to gauge where I am at and back on here bothering you all with question after question no doubt. My theory is to aim for about 5 or 6 miles at a steady pace, clear out the lungs and wake everything up again, all being well I can just resume my training programme, amended with the help of you fine people naturally.

    41 years old and I feel like sleeping in my running gear.... pathethic isn't it?image

    Still the dog will be pleased, I can stop glaring at him

  • Hi all

    Sorry for the late entry to the forum, I need some help with my training plan!  I am following the RW ultimate marathon schedule sub 3.45.  Is anyone else following this that could poss help me?

    Thanks in advance!! image

  • Hi Dobster - I started off following Hal Higdon but have tweaked it based on my lifestyle and taken into account advice and guidance from Spoons. It seems that most plans are just a guide and will be altered slightly for each individual.



    So how can we help you ?
  • Hi Hannah - if you want to message me your email address I will send you my training plan and you can have a look at it and maybe get some ideas. Obviously we are all here to help wherever we can and Spoons has much experience in running and training plans as you know. My training plan covers 5 days of training so I'm not sure which session you would be best leaving out to take into account you will be training for 4 days. Spoons ?
  • Oirish - good luck with your run tomorrow. How does mrs eyes find getting into bed with you wearing lycra ???
  • Carterusm - Thanks for the reply!  Sometimes my mileage doesn;t sseem to add up.  For example tomorrow morning my training plan has me running the following:

    6M of 1M jog then 8 x 2 mins up hill, jog back.  Then 1M jog at end of session.  Does that mean I need to find a hill that is the exact distance to allow those jogs up and down to equal 4M? What if takes me less time or more to get up the hill?  I'm not sure what my main aim is here.  Should my priority be to reach 6M or just to get those sprints in?

    Also I run 5 times a week and play netball once a week leaving me one rest day.  Is this ok or should I be doubling up on run days by adding a bit of a cycle or a swim?

    And my final question - I seem to go too quick on my slow runs but not quick enough on the fast ones.  Should I be trying to slow myself down so my body can recover on my slow runs?

    Sorry for all the questions!!!image

  • Good to see you back at it Oirish ! Very wise giving the ankle plenty of rest.

    Hannah my understanding is a recovery run is the day after the LSR - usually replacing a rest day. I did a slow 3ml recovery run on the treadmill this evening ... never done one of these before having always preferred to take a rest day after LSR so kind of an experiment for me. Will see how I feel in comparison tomorrow when back into the first speed session of the week.

    Welcome Dobster! You are doing plenty of running but would hazard a guess that doing it all without a great variation of pace will cause you to "plateau" and be frustrated by lack of progress/improvement in pace. I think you need to mix it up more - dedicate 1 or 2 speed sessions each week (maybe a hard tempo run & a hill session or intervals) and then do the Long Run slower than feels natural - coversational pace. However it is the slow running that we all struggle with but is the key run of the week. I keep reading "to run fast - first you must run slow!" From my limited experience it does seem to work!  Yes you are right - if LSRs are too fast you will be too fatigued to have effective speed sessions... and you will also increase the risk of injury.
    If anything you could drop one of the run sessions focusing on 4 higher quality runs (tempo, hills, intervals & LSR) and replacing the 5th with some cross training such as cycling or a swim. Definitely wouldn't add cross traing ON TOP of your already busy schedule. You'll be too tired to have quality sessions & won't enjoy them.

    However I am no expert - Spoons will be along shortly!

  • Dobster - welcome to this busy and informative discussion. Most of us on here came had a plan that was loosely based on some other plan and we have since adjusted it with input from Spoons and hearing about others training plans.

    Like Carter I started with a plan loosely based on Hal Higdon but geared towards my busy work and family life. That said I have got up to 5 days a week from the 3 days a week I was doing in December.

    Some questions for you and some thoughts on your questions.

    You are obviously targeting a sub 3:45. But what marathon and how far are you into your training ?

    5 sessions a week (running) seems about right but what mix of speed / interval / MLR's and LSR's are you doing ?

    Your slow runs should be slow until you get within striking distance of your race and then you probably need to incorporate some MP miles into them. Slow on this thread is meant to be 10:00 min/mile. Not that we all do that !!!

    The pace of your speed sessions will deepend on what they are and how long you run. So tempo runs should be 7:00 to 7:45 min / mile and intervals faster than that.

    I do not do specific hill sessions but incorporate a steep hill into my MLR and LSR (same hill about 1 mile long).

    I have always shied away from plans that are complicated. I like simple instructions. So I cannot help you on how to interpret your hill session. Spoons would be better at that than me.

    The key is mixing the sessions up and not running as afst as you can every time.

    Other activities are not necessarily a bad thing (I don't do anything else as I would not have a life if I tried) but doing too much can lead to fatigue and this will mean poor quality running and crap miles don't help with endurance which can lead to bonking in the marathon.

    Do stick around as everyone on here must have learnt something as generally we have all improved from where we were when we started. image

  • Oirish - Good to see you back on here and best of luck with the run tomorrow. Happy to help whatever way we can. image

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