RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00

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  • Lunchtime running is only a pipedream for me Carter - sounds like a nice relaxing run which you probably need right now.

    Wonder how Carl is getting on with fighting off the manflu?

    Here's a question to which I'm open to suggestions:
    My thursday run is the 3rd consecutive run of the week coming on the back of speed sessions on tues & wed (tempo & hills respectively). It is in my Hal Higdon plan as a MLR but with no particular pace suggested. Friday is rest day then Sat is my 2nd MLR usually done at MP with Sun finishing the week with an LSR.
    My question is what format/pace should my Thursday MLR take? Easy run, MP, Some tempo mixed in, intervals, fartlek?

    I always go off on my 1st warm up mile with nothing really planned. For instance tonight I initially thought just a comfortable MP type steady run. Then with half the session done I decided I would run the last 4 progressively faster - a sort of very controlled tempo build up I suppose. Here were the splits etc:

    8 miles - 1:07.16 (avg pace 8.25/avg HR 149)
    Mile 1: 9.15    Mile 2: 8.39    Mile 3: 8.34  Mile 4: 8.21   Mile 5: 8.22   Mile 6:  8.13  
    Mile 7: 8.08   Mile 8: 7.45

    Don't want to be wasting a session with junk miles!

  • Hi Ricky - if you have done two speed sessions on Tuesday and Wednesday then I think that the pace you ran at tonight is too quick, to the point where this is a speed session as well possibly. I have my speed sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays with a MLR on Wednesday which I run at the same pace as my LSR i.e. 10:00mm. I think the thought is that if you do speed sessions on two consecutive days this is overdoing it and may have a knock on effect in your next run. Could you change your MLR and second speed session around ? Also, I see you are running two MLRs but no recovery run ? What pace, time and distance do you run these at.



    Germs are currently running through our house with mrs carter suffering from flu, the proper type not the bit of a cough type. I've got my snotty as the day has gone by but fortunately I have a rest day tomorrow so hope to be fighting fit for my LSR on Saturday. There seems to be a lot of it about at the moment.



    Stay warm and healthy everyone
  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    image

  • Oh dear Carl - bad to worse?



    Yes Carter I could swap wed & thurs around so the first MLR is sandwiched btween the speed sessions - good thinking. Kinda like to get the two toughies outta the way early in the week though lol.

    Recovery run - would be a mon after LSR on sun however until this week I usually had total rest on a Monday . Did 3 mls easy on treddie as my 1st recovery run on Monday past so will probably make it a regular mon thing from now on.



    Carter it's Valentines night so if you are going near the wife make sure you don ur germ warfare suit image
  • Ricky - I'm always wearing it when I go near her !! image Another thought about your plan. Might you also be better switching your Saturday and Sunday runs around and then resting on Mondays ? Would it be better goign into your LSR after a rest day rather than after a MLR ? If you have a hard MLR you might not feel, or be able to, have a good 20 miler the next day ? Spoons was being wined and dined last night so I guess he will be online later to give you some advice image

    Still full of cold today but a planned rest day.

    Looks like Carl is still a bit under the weather too

  • Hi all - feeling full of the joys of spring after an easy 3 miler, avg pace 9.13 in glorious sunshine. In fact, I had thought I was in danger of becoming a gremlin, having not seen the sun for so long. Nice to stretch the legs out after yesterday's treadmill session, but only thing that is slightly bothering me is that for last three runs, I've had a real pain on bone at top of arch when I start running, could also be the joint, which eases off after a mile or so....any thoughts?

     

  • Ricky - there's no such thing as junk miles. Do the Thursday MLR slowly. Preferably, swap the Wednesday session with the Thursday MLR.

    Hannah - you mean the arch under the foot?

    Sun is shining here image

  • sorry i mean the top of my foot, above my arch...have very high arches!

     

  • Well hello one all the sick and able alike.

    Now I know this is going to jinx me but somehow despite all the bugs this year I have had not the slightest sniffle all winter. So wishing you al  well and a speedy recovery.

    I held off posting until I'd done a couple of more runs and experimented with mixing up my runs so here are the scores from the Oirish jury.

    Weds - Hill session.

    Now this was "fun", a few things to consider here.

    I love hills going up, hate them going down.

    My timing system was paused for about a mile midway causing me to lose track of time and distance.

    This was my first attempt at pacing myself.

    I very easily get carried away.

    The plan was good, two roads a mile long running parrelel connected by a series of side roads in a kind of grid all of which are hilly, perfect so I ran a mile trying to force myself to warm up and slow down before running up the first hill, back down and then along to the next junction and repeated up and down and along. In all 7 times out and 7 times back and then a warm down.

    I mapped it out at a shade over 7.5 miles (see getting carried away) The whole shebang taking me 1:06:23. All of which I found fairly comfortable. The only problem was the continuous running up and down outside a primary school playground at lunchtime 8 times as the school is between two of these side roads.

    Which brings me to this mornings little adventure. My first attempt really to pace myself and to get a feel what different paces feel like. Here are my splits:

    Mile 1   8:37 I was trying for 10 and this felt slow so god knows what a 10 minute mile is.

    Mile 2   7:36 Quickened up a little, to a pace I felt I was pushing at and included a sodding great hill I'd forgotten about

    Mile 3  8:38 A recovery pace(?)

    Mile 4  9:00 An even bigger sodding hill and country drivers trying to ram me into bushes I was concentrating on staying alive and was up and down banks which must be great cross training

    Mile 5 06:43  Fully refreshed and safely on a bridlepath I opened up, this was tiring

    Mile 6  09:16 A warm down and gentle canter home, well the paper shop.

    To be honest I have no idea if these runs were good, bad, indifferent or pointless although the change was good and rather than switching off I found myself concentrating. It is going to take a while to get a hang of pacing different tempos but we can only try.

    All feedback will be gratefully received.

    Far more importantly I know you wanted to know how Me and Mrs.Oirish enjoted Valentine's. Well it went down a storm. Wednesday I walked to the posh jewellers on the corner and caught the bus to the out of town shopping village where I purchased Sports Direct's finest running shoes, a sports bra (looks like a stunt parachute but I was mistaken) and yards of pink lycra, yards and yards.

    Well the look on her face when she opened it up was a joy to behold. You see I built the tension, first I handed her a small velvet box and to be honest I could of easily just got her that because her eyes lit up like bonfire night when I handed it to her but no there was more....... inside the box was a key, a mystery key. You could tell it was a mystery because she looked very confused when she openend it.

    "Tis the shed key" I announced and I don't know if she'd been peeking but I swear I saw a tear welling in the corner of her eye. Together we went to the shed and retrieved her gift wrapped presents. Back indoors she opened her trainers first and boy oh boy was she overjoyed, in delight she took one in each hand and threw them in the air, so overcome with emotion was she that she couldn't bring herself to open the other presents and shot out of the room.

    Several hours later after she had compose

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Getting very frustrated.

    After putting so much effort into this training it is annoying not being able to run.

    Voice still not great and yes I do not need my voice to run but my head does not feel as it should and if I was being honest it has gone below the nexk.

    I have been dosing myself with every flu product known to man and have increased my intake of fruit.

    I am so desperate to get out there tomorrow to do my LSR but do not want to put everythig at risk.

    What does a week out of a schedule mean to overall performance ?

    What impact will it have on my HM next weekend ?

    I guess I will have to make that decision in the morning.

    imageimage

     

     

    This blasted manflu just does not want to go way. I have not yet given up hope of doing my LSR tomorrow but need to wait to the morning to give my

  • Carl D wrote (see)

    What does a week out of a schedule mean to overall performance ?

    What impact will it have on my HM next weekend ? 

    Well obviously it does have an impact. But...... If you're ill and you try and train through it your training is usually rubbish and therefore you gain little training benefit from it. Plus..... More importantly, if you train when ill your recovery from the dreaded man flu can take longer thus the overall training is less. Make sense? Generally I err on the side of caution and go back to bed.

    But..... I am lazy..... image

  • Oirish - sounds like a great valentine's day image keep working on those paces. They get much easier and it really works.

  • Oirish - sounds like you are in fine fettle - in all senses of the word! Superfast 5th mile there! I'm sure those eyes were smilin....image

    Hannah what a beautiful day for run - your post just reminded me that I haven't seen sun on a run for a while now! Watch that foot.

    Carl - scrap the LSR & prioritise getting yourself well.... it won't have a huge impact. I was reading thru my 2006 running diary & my marathon training on the run up to my Spring marathon and note I missed a 20 miler and several sessions due to colds etc. I went on to PB @ HM a few weeks later and achieved my goal of sub 3.45 in the mara.
    I feel your frustation especially as your training as been going so well but as the Unstoppable Sex Machine advised me 2 weeks ago - get better & you will come back stronger. And he was right - I have run my fastest mile and fastest 6 miles since and my avg HR is down for comparable pace. Cheers Carter!

    Carter - i think I'll keep my 2nd MLR on a sat and LSR on a sun for 2 reasons: 1. Hal Higdon seems to advise that running a LSR the day after a MP MLR with not so fresh legs is great marathon training 2. I work Sat morns and early morn Sun LSR just fits with family life etc so much better.
    I will take your advice about swapping my Weds & Thursdays around though image

  • Cheers Spoons, like I say once I get a grasp of pacing these things then I should be fine. I am going to try audiobooks rather than music and see if this puts me in the mood for a slower pace. I was a bit concerned when I was speeding up not to go to fast and then run out of steam but I certainly enjoyed both runs as an alternative to a steady plod.

    As for the running whilst ill dilemma, I always site the endurance cyclists, who I appreciate aren't exactly exemplary role models but they stop training full stop at the first sign of a cold. Total shut down, it suprised me when I read that but on reflection there is a logic in it because as you say the training will be poor and you are just putting more strain on an already failing system.

    Mind you I bet they don't go short on medication.

    Mind you I once ran a HM 4 days after a 3 week hospital stay so don't listen to me, just because I have good advice doesn't mean I have to follow it.

  • Hang in there Carl, hopefully you will soon be back out there. I'm sure you will come back even stronger after a rest.



    Ricky - are you saying Hal knows more than me ??? image If you have to change your plan to fit in with family life then that's what you must do. Sounds like you're in top of it anyway !



    Oirish - I find it difficult to get the right pace without my watch but once I've got it I can stay fairly consistent. Practise make perfect an all that.



    Spoons - lazy ? You ?? How are the injuries coming along. Do you have any idea when you might be back running ?



    My cold is no worse so I'm taking that as a good sign that I will be able to run tomorrow, but I will make that decision in the morning. I'm really looking forward to it, have found a flattish route and will be trying our some gels for the first time.



    The forecast is set fair for a few days so hopefully any man flu type symptoms will clear up quickly.
  • Hal Higdon's plans are better than most. Especially his always running 26.2 miles minimum over the weekend. 

    Carter - I'm going for a 30 minute jog tomorrow..... First in over 2 weeks image

  • Sorry to hear you've not been great Carl. I had to take a week out of my schedule a couple of weeks back and was getting really worried about it. I set me back a tiny bit, but not as much as I would have been set back had I tried to keep on running through it.

    I'm looking at the sunshine, hoping it stays like this for the HM tomorrow, and thinking that perhaps I was a bit silly going out for 'just a couple' with the other half and some friends last night. It's never just a couple is it?!

  • Hannah - oh I'm having a flashback to the glass of wine with my pasta the night before Run to the beat incident of 2010. It's never just one either.

    Good luck tomorrow and looking forward to hearing all about it. 

    Here's wishing you all a good weekend

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭

    Thanks all for the encouragement. Some amazing running going on whilst I have been feeling sorry for myself.

    Having gne to bed before the kids last night I am feeling a little brighter today. Hopefully another good day or rest will put this behind me.

    I will make a decision in the morning about doing my LSR. I might do a MLR instead just to get the legs moving again.

    It was definitely winter when I last ran but it looks positively balmy out there today. There is a massive XC event on across in Hampstead Heath and I can hear it from where I live. Just makes me want to don the running shoes but that would be silly today.

    Hannah - best of luck with your HM tomorrow.

    Carter - did you decide to run the 20 miles this weekend. I am amazed at your recovery after your HM effort last weekend. Also interested to hear how you get on experimenting with gels.

    Spoons - lazy is not a word that I would describe you with. You might be injured but you have been doing all sorts of other activities so well done you. I guess having run so many marathons it is easier not to get so worked up about potentially missing one when injured. Unlike us novices who having invested so much time and effort into training get frustrated so much more easily when we miss a few days.

    Ricky - some great training going on there. Having looked at quite a few training plans I tend to agree that Hal's are better than most. At this stage in your training I would not mess around too much with your weekend runs. If it works for you stick with it. You seem to be moving into a great place and I am expecting great things from you.

    Oirish - some good sessions from you too. Once you get into the zone with pacing your faster runs there will be no stopping you.

  • Hannah - have a great race tomorrow. Looking forward to reading your race report!



    Yes Carl - definite change in the weather ... I'm just in from 8.5 miles in the 'spring sunshine' - force of habit I went out in the standard issue hat, gloves, leggings and two layers on top.... A bit warm and def felt overdressed!



    This was a MP run - averaged 8.28 for the run with avg HR of 154bpm - this more or less bang on where I need my HR to be for the marathon so quite pleased with progress. Splits:



    8.26, 8.27, 8.07 (dwnhll), 8.30, 8.31, 8.45 (uphll), 8.26, 8.27.



    Chinese, feet up & a few carby treats tonight in prep for slaying the 20 mile beast in the morning!



    Carl when u feel ready to run again - take one more days rest just to be sure. Remember what happened to mr bolt when he jumped the gun!
  • Hi all - thanks for the good luck wishes!

    Am getting a little anxious - do I need to get my excuses in early?  I've already mentioned the over-indulging last night, and the sore foot, but I also managed to drop a perfume bottle on my other foot today (ouch, ouch) and have had slightly dodgy stomach, so all-in-all I'm a slightly hobbling, sweet-smelling specimen of loveliness. Anyway, still haven't decided what I'm aiming for, but would seem to make sense to be in the 1.45-1.49 ball park, I think.

    I know there are a few miles of beach/mud/shingles which might cause a few delays, but the weather forecast is fine, and I'm really rather looking forward to my first race in 5 months.

    Good luck with all the recoveries to the poorly people and Ricky, I am sure you will have no trouble slaying the beast!!

    Until tomorrow then...

  • Evening all. I hope everyone has been enjoying the lovely weather today, practically summer up in Sheffield at 9 degrees.



    Breakfast of 2 slices of toast and tea and I set off on my 20 miler. Took a grab drink thing, or whatever they are called, with this High 5 4in1 stuff and kept drinking this all the way round. At mile 8 I took my first gel which didn't taste too bad actually. At mile 12, of 20, my legs started to get a bit heavy so I took the second gel. I think I was expecting to feel a sudden burst of energy and speed, but obviously this didn't come. I think the efforts of last weeks run started to kick in so I decided to cut my run short. I think i could have pushed and done the 20 but ghink i made the sensible decision, for a change, and listened to sgat my legs were telling me. The last couple of miles or so are uphill but I got home without any trouble.



    In conclusion, I think having a lighter breakfast and the gels helped. I also made sure I didn't start too quickly. I'm not totally convinced by the gels yet but on reflection I think they probably helped so will carry on taking them.



    The run ended up at 16.7 miles @ 9:43. The legs are aching a bit but some rollering later (after a couple if Magners) will hopefully sort me out.



    Good luck to those racing tomorrow and a speedy recovery to those that are suffering a bit at the moment
  • Sounds sensible Carter - prob a combination of last sundays race exertions & that manflu you had working on you earlier in the week.

    Just a point on the gels though: Are you sure the gels are working the way they should if you are taking them with the sports mix drink? I was always of the understanding that you needed to take water with gels to allow proper absorption by the gut. I'm nearly sure there's something about the concentration of a sports drink that makes the gel sit in a gloop like state in your gut without being effectively absorbed. Could be wrong though - maybe do some googling?

    I have used the High 5 4-1 powder before but used it pre & post run, carrying water during the run to drink with the gels.

  • Hi Carter - sorry to hear your long run didn't go to plan. Take it easy tomorrow. Have you got a log of what long runs, distances and paces you have done this year? Only the Saturday long run, not the other stuff.

  • Carl DCarl D ✭✭✭
    Ricky - you are probably right. LSR is not on for me today. Just going to write this week off as a bad week an hope that I can recover in time for Paris. I will most likely need to rethink next week so that I do a decent HM as making a mess of that would not do much for the confidence.



    Hope your LSR went well today. Fantastic run yesterday.



    Carter - sorry to hear that your long run did not work out yesterday. Put it behind you and come back stronger next week.



    Do you think it is the effect of the HM as I might need to TFA for this into my training after Baldock next weekend.
  • Right decision Carl - a week off really won't have much impact on your Paris performance given the quality of your training to date - so try to stay positive.



    Wonder how Hannah is getting on?!



    So I ran the 20 miler in 3:04 this morning - first 14 @ 9.26 pace and then attempted last 6 at MP - was finding it quite tough and was a little down on MP averaging 8.42 for those final 6 miles (target MP is 8.35).

    Averaged 9.13 pace for the 20 miles @ 143bpm avg HR.



    So all in all quite happy with that and that tops me off at 50mls for the week.
  • Carl/Spoons - I was actually quite happy with how yesterdays run went to be honest, apart from the fact that I cut it short by 3 miles I felt it was a decent run considering that I was running on tired legs towards the end. 

    Ricky - thanks for the comments about the gels. I'm sure the chap at the running shop said mix the 4in1 water and use that during and after the run and use the Isogels for an extra boost during the run. The isogels were more liquidy than gloopy so they went down okish. I will check with the shop when I go in again this week.

    Carl - well done for being so patient this week and making the frustrating decision not to go out this weekend. You will be fit and raring to go soon and will be well rested to go for a PB at the weekend. For my half I didnt taper and went straight into my training as normal after the race. During the week I felt quite strong, it was only towards the end of yesterdays run that I tired a bit. For my next race I think I will not taper again but cut down a bit the week after and limit my weekend run to maybe 12 miles. With the training times you have been posting here recently I would say you are running really strongly at the moment so maybe a slight taper and receoveryafter the race might work for you ? This is all a learning process for us so we may not getthings right first time.

    Spoons - a good 30 minute run under your belt for your comeback. Lets hope all the injuries are behind you now

  • Spoons - I'm feeling good today so going out for a trot later. Here are the details of my long runs since starting the training plan.

    Week 1 - 15 miles @ 9:21

    Week 2 - 12.1 @ 9:44

    Week 3 - 18.1 @ 10:06

    Week 4 - 10.5 @ 10:17

    Week 5 - 12.1 @ 10:11

    Week 6 - 16.6 @ 9:37

    Week 7 - 13.1 @ 8:05 (Liversedge HM)

    Week 8 - 16.7 @ 9:43

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