RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00

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  • Thre was all this talk of it being warmer this week and people running in sunshine. None of that here in London this afternoon when I got out. It was quite chilly actualy which was initially nice as I was back outdoors but as the run got harder was less nice.

    All week I was wondering if I really would be able to do 20 miles on the back of the overnight flight across the pond. So it was always going to be a case of turning up and seeing what happened.

    The plan was 3 blocks of 4 miles at or above MP broken by a block of 4 miles at an easy pace.

    The first 1.5 miles are up hill, then I decend for a few miles and then at mile 8 I climb again before falling and it being relatively falt with some smaller inclines at various stages.

    I took a gel at mile 7 and again at mile 14 and I sipped my lucozade sports drink throughout every few miles.

    So the splits were as follows :

    1 - 8:08; 2 - 8:39 (hill is steepest through 1.5 miles); 3- 8:10 and 4 - 8:05

    5 - 9:00; 6 - 9:05; 7 - 9:04; 8 - 9:02

    9 - 7:58; 10 - 7:57; 11 - 7:57; 12 - 7:54

    13 - 8:58; 14 - 8:56; 15 - 8:51; 16 - 8:54

    17 - 8:02; 18 - 7:52; 19 - 7:51; 20 - 7:45

    Overall 2:48:11 which equates to an average of 8:24 min/mile.

    This was mcuh tougher than it might seem. I knew that I pushed it a little in the second block of MP 4 miles and wondered what this would do to me in the last 4 miles. I had to dig deep here to grind these last 4 miles out and I enjoyed the last mile because I knew it was the last mile and I was really pleasec with completing the 20 miles.

    My body was generally stiffer than it normally would be after 20 miles but this was no ordinary 20 mile LSR. Also having being cooped up in a plane last night I was expecting my body to be rebelling a little.

    I have limited time tomorrow. On a train heading for Liverpool at midday and need to look after the OH and make sure homework etc is all complete. I am going to try and get a few mile recovery run in even if it is only 3 miles.

    Weekly mileage so far is down at 38 miles having run less than I normally would with time being limited on the treddie. Hopefully that will not have any bearing come race day.

  • Wow Carl - impressive LSR session... Those 3 blocks of MP were quick - substantially faster than ur intended MP of 8.15? Impressive you ran last 4 at such a good pace on tired legs! Looking v good for Paris!



    Off out on mine in about 30mins - just letting the porridge & bagels settle! Solo this morning so have the latest two 'marathon talk' podcasts downloaded at the ready.

    Unsure whether to run any MP this morn - might just run slooow & take advantage of being on my own & going at my own pace rather than be pushed along by my faster running bud. Will see how it pans out. Did my Friday MLR at MP in any case. Mmmm decisions decisions!
  • Fantastic splits there Carl, that has got to have you beaming? That would of been a top run at anytime but considering your week you've had and the build up to it that makes it all the more impressive.

    Agree with you on the rugby, we just don't convert posssesssion to points, when we were well on top at half time I did say we haven't scored enough. The odd thing is I don't think we've played that badly if anything the thing that cost us against England is a refusal to play the conditions and play some 10 man rugby and as for Scotland I'll never be able to explain that until the day I die!

    Still I picked a good year not to attend all the games.

    I am out for my LSR in about 20 minutes, what a saga this has been, my plans have changed halfa dozen times in the last 48 hours. A different day, a different route and  a different running partner.

    Silky planning as always.

    Carter - Play offs eh? Back to the big time fingers crossed. You have to say it shows what a total legend Cloughie was when you look at what the club was before and after him.

    I have to agree with Carl's summary, we may not all be where we want to be running wise at the moment but all those poor injured souls are back on the up so you have to take the positives I think and good times are ahead all around. (Please note pre LSR enthusiasm. Positivity subject to change)

    Anyhoo good luck all and Happy mother's day,  I have to tell you the very real story of Mother Oirish serving up 9 beautifully presented and lovingly prepared Sunday roasts for all the family. There they were laid out for collection on the kitchentop, beautiful circles of steam and gravied loveliness, "Don't be shy" she said "Help yourselves to whatever one you want".

    After we all hesitated and exchanged confused looks it fell on me to point out she hadn't actually used any plates. Somehow she had served it all up straight onto the counter!!!

    You know when you spill crumbs and with your hand level with the work surface you swipe the crumbs into it? Well that was pretty much how we got around it. A proud day.

  • Oirish - Brilliant! image

    Carl - fantastic well done. You may want to think about tweaking your 8:15 marathon pace a bit. 8:05 sound about right?

  • Well back in from the snow and rain with 20 miles under my belt and I didn't get lost once!

    It was good fun dealing with the snow in my eyes, traffic doing 60 at me down country lanes (It's alright though because it was a sports car so obviously he was a reaaaaaallly good driver) and clinging to bushes as I navigated along a hedged embankment where the road had flooded, eat you heart out Indiana Jones.

    Here are the splits:

    1 @ 9:03

    2-7 8:29, 8:43, 8:43, 8:39: 8:49 8:47

    8-11 9:21(my Indie moment) 8:59 8:56 8:40

    12-16 8:13 9:25 8:49 8:49 8:52

    17-19 8:34 8:25 8:30

    20 9:25

     I didn't realise how wet I was until I tried to get my running gear off, still I am really glad I did it, the weather was shocking when I started and it would of been easy to have made an excuse not to go out. Those few steps to the door are the hardest of the lot somedays.

  • Oirish - you missed your calling: you should be on the stage image



    Nice LSR from you!



    I left the house at 7.30am and although very cold & windy was dry. Nothing spectacular from me - just decided to run a nice comfortable pace the whole way through . Ended up 21 mls @ 9.17 pace but I felt the you are supposed to feel after a long run for the first time - tired but felt like i could run on easily to marathon distance.

    Quite pleased how comfortable it felt.
  • So 4 weeks today to Paris. Getting close now. What is my plan.



    One week to go before I taper. So I plan to continue the drill of tempo, MLR and interval midweek with an LSR on the weekend.



    Next weekend will do 22 miles SLOW with the objective of being on my feet for 3:30. The following weeks will be 12 and 8 miles.



    I was thinking of leaving the tempo and internal sessions more of less as they are now but reduce the length of the MLR during the taper.



    And I am going to carry on having some MP during the MLR"s and at the end of tempo and interval sessions.



    I need to home in on a MP and settle on this. I had 8:15 in my head as a sensible pace that I could probably sustain after the first few miles when the crowds thin out. and I am guessing that yesterdays run supports this.



    I ran the pace blocks faster than that yesterday so does this mean that I could aim for faster. Spoons you clearly think so and you are much more experienced at this than me. So why do you think 8:05 is about right. I am empted but do not want to get this wrong and blow up on the day.
  • Oirish - great run from you today in rubbish conditions. You do have a way with words. You are of course correct. Going through other front door when it is rough outside takes great mental strength.



    Ricky - another good solid run from you today. Good that you felt you could carry on for a few more miles.
  • Splits:

    9.47; 9.28; 9.16; 9.20; 9.17; 9.15; 9.18; 9.28; 9.07; 9.22; 9.22; 9.18; 9.18; 9.14; 9.17; 9.07; 9.14; 9.28 (Hil); 9.08; 8.59; 8.53
  • Boys - excellent running all round especially given the weather and things going on at home, work etc.

    Carl - what is your plan for race day regarding where to start in the pack ? Are you going to try and sneak in the 3 hour area so you won't have too much trouble with slower runners getting in your way or go in the 3:30 area and try and dodge through the crowds ? I think I would favour the 3 hour area if I were you ?

    Just about to take the mutt into the peaks for a walk in the snow. Then I'm going to settle down on the sofa for a couple of hours. I've recovered quite nicely after my two long runs this week so I'm off out later to get a few miles in with some at MP
  • Well done Ricky / Oirish - nice long runs there.

    Carl - your plan sounds spot on. Re: MP - it's always a tough one. Looking at the splits on yesterday's run 8:05 looks very doable. Most of your 12 miles MP were sub 8:00 pace. I was tempted got say 7:55 and go for 3:29 but as you know the difference in 10 seconds a mile is huge when you've been running for 3 hours.... The truth is, an awful lot of how well we do in marathons is nothing to do with training. It's how strong we are to resist the urge to slow down and/or walk when our minds start telling us to stop. 

  • I took Harvey for a walk in the peaks this afternoon. It was incredible how different the weather conditions can be 5 miles away. At home it was cold, about 2 degrees, with a gentle breeze. 5 miles away there was a force 9 gale blowing, it was snowing and it must have been at least 10 degrees colder. Anyway, Harvey enjoyed himself and I got some nice photos of him.



    8 miles with 6 @ MP for me tonight.

    1 - 9:16

    2 - 8:34

    3 - 8:28

    4 - 8:39

    5 - 8:30

    6 - 8:26

    7 - 8:35

    8 - 9:45

    I felt ok after yesterday's run and could have gone another few miles which bodes well for future runs with some MP.

    A cut back week for me this week with the South Yorkshire half next Sunday
  • Carl - why don't you stick to ur plan of 8.15 pace but aim to run a negative split. If your feeling good at 16ish miles you could start to push the pace progressively until mile 20 try & hold it all the way to the line. Might be a more enjoyable experience than realising at 16miles 8.05 was too fast and the last 10 being hell on earth.....probably result in a similar time but a much nicer run.



    Snow in them thar hills here too today Carter... Forecast is more snow on the way and -10 tomoro nite! My core temp was low after my run today - stood in pipin hot shower for 30mins when I got in. Nice MP run - are still aimin for 8.35 MP then?



    53 miles for the week & this incoming week is the biggest week to come so far. Then cutback the following week with Larne HM at the end of it (sat 23rd).
  • Ricky - 53 miles for me this week too, my best week ever.



    Spoons - for my one speed session this week would you suggest a tempo or interval session ? And how many miles should it be ?
  • Ricky W wrote (see)
    Carl - why don't you stick to ur plan of 8.15 pace but aim to run a negative split. If your feeling good at 16ish miles you could start to push the pace progressively until mile 20 try & hold it all the way to the line. Might be a more enjoyable experience than realising at 16miles 8.05 was too fast and the last 10 being hell on earth.....probably result in a similar time but a much nicer run. 


    Ricky - I am definitely moving into territory unknown. My previous 2 attempts at the marathon were all about getting to the finish line and here I am grappling with the thought of trying to go faster than 8:15 pace. I never thought I would be here but goes to show what some very focussed training can do.

     
    Spoons. wrote (see)

    Carl - your plan sounds spot on. Re: MP - it's always a tough one. Looking at the splits on yesterday's run 8:05 looks very doable. Most of your 12 miles MP were sub 8:00 pace. I was tempted got say 7:55 and go for 3:29 but as you know the difference in 10 seconds a mile is huge when you've been running for 3 hours.... The truth is, an awful lot of how well we do in marathons is nothing to do with training. It's how strong we are to resist the urge to slow down and/or walk when our minds start telling us to stop. 

    Spoons - I guess that setting out with 7:55 in mind could make for a very difficult race. I set out to run the HM at 8:00 min milng and ended up smashing that with 7:43 min/mile with a very strong finish. I have run 2 strong LSR's with 8 and 12 miles of Pace running. Average pace of the 5 blocks of 4 pace miles have been 8:10 ; 8:09; 8:15; 7:57; 7:54. And looking a little closer of the 20 pace miles, 17 of them were less than 8:10.
    So this is telling me that I can probably go closer to 8:00 min miling than I had been thinking. But it is bringing me into another place where the mental side of things will be so important as closer to 8:00 min miling is going to be physically very demanding particularly if it is a warm day. 

    I think I am going to adopt the 8:05 during training so that I get used to how it feels. If I am not sure coming upto race day I can always reevaluate and drop it a little. I might need to do this anyway if it is warm on the day.

    And as you say on race day it is not the training that will get me round (it will help of course) but it will all be about how strong I am mentally.

    I must be mad !!!!!

     

     

  • Good running by everyone.  

    Over the weekend, I caught a glimpse of the weather forecast for today which was basically "-5, with gale force winds" which wasn't too appealing!  Therefore, I got an extra run in yesterday and I'm treating today as a rest day.

    As a matter of interest, when people are talking about quite precise pacing targets how do you accurately run at such a pace over a long period?  I have a Garmin, but even with that my actual paces are very heavily dependent on the route profile etc.  I.E., I may run up a hill at 09:00 and find it hard, but then run down the other side at 07:30 and find it easy.

  • Big_G - if I'm trying to run a certain pace it will be the average of the whole run. As you say, going up a hill at the same pace could be difficult to acheive. When I run up hills I will try and put the same amount of effort in to when I'm running on the flat. This will obviously mean running slower up the hill. Putting in the same amount of effort on the downhill will also mean running faster than on the flat when putting the same effort in. I dont try and maintain the speed going up or down hills and at the end of the run the pace will generally average itself out to the pace I was targetting in that run so it's not something I think I need to worry about really. 

  • Carl - obviously we're all mad! Your plan sounds perfect. Get some miles in at 8:05 and see how it goes. You can always drop a bit nearer the time.

    Carter - I would really focus on the half this week and also on not knackering out the legs too much. Therefore - On Tuesday I would do a tempo run - 4 miles at half marathon pace with a 1.5 mile w/u + c/d (7 miles in total). On Thursday I would do 3 x 1000m at half marathon pace (90 seconds recovery) with a 1.5 mile w/u + c/d (5 miles in total).

  • Cheers Spoons

  • Carl - let me tell you what I think. Running at 8:15 you are going to smash your PB. You've put some great training in so I think it would be a shame to put it at risk. I think you can comfortably achieve 3:35 now and then look to crack 3:30 next time out. It really is a tough decision to make
  • Anyone else experiencing problems with text size. It seems to post okay but when typing it is tiny.

  • Carl - lots of people!

  • Spoons - good to know that it is not just me. I suppose RW will sort this out sometime then.

    Carter - Do not fear. I am defo not setting out to try and crack the 3:30 barrier. I am not even thinking about this. Maybe 8:05 pace is too fast but to get under 3:30 I would have to run sub 8:00 min miles and that is not going to happen.

    Like you I have put so much effort into this now that I do not want to blow it but so far Spoons has been right about most things so I am going to take on board his suggestion based on my recent results.

    If I train at 8:05 during the next few weeks I can always drop it a little come race day if I am not feeling confident. That way if I am feeling really good I can go for it as I know what it feels like.

    I am sure we will return to this before race day again.

    Freezing tonight. Thank goodness it is a rest day as not sure I could go out in that. Hopefully it will be a little less windy tomorrow night. image

     

     

  • Well folks - I have today committed & signed up for my Marathon.



    Limerick on Sunday 5th May.



    Have booked 2 nights in what is reportedly the tallest hotel in Ireland on the banks of the River Shannon only 5 mins walk from Start/Finish in the city centre. Mrs Ricky W & kids in tow and making a bank hol weekend away out of it image



    Really looking forward to it now.



    4 mile recovery run tonight on the treadmill while watchin Top Gear African Special pt 1 image
  • Carl - a good idea there. And yes Spoons has been right about everything so far image

    As you say it's really cold tonight. We've got a cold wind blowing as well making it even colder. Sounds like its the same everywhere for the next couple of nights. Might even have to put my tights on tomorrow night !!

    I'm constantly having this argument with myself about my race pace. So far I have convinced myself to go for 8:15, then 8:45, then 8:30, 8:20, 8:40 etc.

    Spoons - if you cast your mind back to your first marathon at what stage did you settle on your pace ? Did you keep to that pace or change it on the start line ?

    Also, what do you do if you start feeling a bit ropey after say 15 miles; do you push on and hope for the best or slow down and hope you get your second wind ? So many questions but I expect we are only going to find these things out for ourselves on race day !
  • Get in there Ricky !
  • Carter - for what it's worth... my plan in my first & only mara was 9 m/ml pace for sub 4 hrs. On the start line that was also the plan.

    The first few miles were 8.30 but "felt" like 9 m/mls if that makes sense so I just stuck with it and ending up running 8.34avg pace and a 3:44

    I did feel ropey from around 16/18 miles but just stuck with it pretty much maintaining my pace to the finish... but it hurt... boy did it hurt. It was really a case of mind over matter in those last 8 miles.

    Can't explain why the early pace was faster than it felt - probably a combination of the rest from the taper & adrenaline on the day!?

  • Ricky - well done for finally making the commitment. image

    Fascinating about the last 8 miles. I reckon racing the marathon is all about mind over matter. And training does not really help with this which is why we all enter HM's to see what happens in a race situation. 6-8 miles is not that far to push through the pain when the mind is saying slow down, STOP just take a quick breather. But after running 600 odd miles in training, 6-8 miles is not that far.

    I would have never thought that before but my run on Saturday was a bit like running a marathon. Having got off an overnight flight, most would not have attempted 20 miles, let alone 12 of them at a fast MP. The after effects of Saturdays run have felt very much like I ran a marathon but suspect that the jetlag has a lot to do with this.

    At 16 miles as I embarked on the last 4 miles, I had to keep telling myself that it was only 4 miles. They were tough, it would have been so easy to stop but I kept telling myself that I was nearly there and that it would be worth it. It was.

  • Carl - that's good mental training

    Ricky - great to hear you've signed up. 

    Carter - somewhere between 15 and 21 miles it will always start to feel really tough. Just knuckle down and push on.

  • First marathon - my pace was solely based on my half time thrown into one of those online calculators that predicts your marathon time. It was hopelessly optimistic and I blew up big time and shuffled the last 8 miles. Started at 8 min miling and finished in 4:17.

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