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In a kind of reluctant way, I find myself looking again at P&D.... I know I haven't got this marathon out of the way yet, but I'm looking ahead to next Spring. I'm again looking at the 18-week 55-mile plan and think I should be able to start it in reasonable shape mileage-wise.
P&D is quite technical (I'm quite a simple soul at heart....) but I have come up with the below based on my current Half marathon time (1hr42) with a view of getting into the sub-4 category next Spring. How does this look regarding paces?
Long/Medium Long runs- 10:21 to 10:48min/mile. This is based on 15-20% slower than MP).
Marathon Pace runs. 9min/mile.
General Aerobic runs- 10:21 to 11:15min/mile (15-25% slower than MP). 11:15 is slow, even for me.
Lactate Threshold - 8min/mile. P&D says between 15K and Half pace. I've never ran a 15K but 8min/mile is 1hr45 for a Half. My PB is 1hr42 on a fair course. P&D say that people on this training plan should be at the slower end of the range for these LT sessions so I came up with 8min/miles.
VO2 max - 7min/mile. This is very slightly slower than my 5K average PB on a flat course and looking at the schedules, the VO2 max sessions are interval sessions where I think I could do this pace (or slightly quicker for the shorter intervals).
Recovery - P&D doesn't really specify the recovery pace, although it says it should be the slowest session of the week. Slower than the 11:15 GA pace seems very slow though....
I do these paces anyway in various sessions, with the exception of the GA run which is slower than what I would do currently. However, it's the mileage increase that is a concern for me in terms of tiredness. The most I've done for this marathon is 45 miles in a week but I've done several high 30s and a couple of low 40s.
The other big difference compared to what I do now is the amount of miles at Marathon Pace that are in the Medium/Long runs, but I can definitely see how this would improve my chances of getting the sub-4. I think if I can do these it will be a confidence booster, if nothing else.
Sub-4 should be within my grasp based on my Half PB (probably not in October though). Some predicors even say 3:45 but I'm well off that currently with my PB currently at 4hr08.
Any thoughts on the above? Too conservative? Too fast?
Well G I'm not an expert so I'm not going to comment on your different paces really as I don't know anything about P&D or much else tbh.
the only thing I will venture to say is I cant imagine ever running at slower than 11:15 (your recovery) pace... And I'm a slower runner than you by far! I follow with interest for what wiser people come along and say in comment
Great treadmill dedication Carl! Haven't done anything longer than 30 mins on the treaty for a few months now.
Big_g - I'm certainly not wise but happy to offer my opinion.
I think your long runs are too slow, I would say 10:00-10:30 would be more suitable. This time last year I ran my first half at 1:45 so we are in a similar ballpark. I know it's different for people but I guess at our standard a lot of this stuff is guesswork anyway. If I were you I would start building up the mileage after your autumn marathon and until the end of the year. Run these all at the LSR pace I suggested above, if it was me I wouldn't do any speedwork during this period, this is all about building your mileage. By the end of the year you could be running 40-45 miles per week, don't forget your easy weeks. Bear in mind that with P&D you peak at 55 so doing 45 per week you won't be that far off. In my view, P&D is for experienced runners and I found it tough going when I started. There are lactate threshold runs, VO2 runs and marathon paced runs. I found it too intense and think it contributed to my injury. I would say for the first half of your spring plan to only run one speed session per week (I include marathon paced runs in that) and slowly increase it for the second half of the plan. I am also one for going for it, rather than being conservative, and based on some of the details of your runs you have given us, I would aim for 3:45 (if you're prepared to take the chance of blowing up completely that is). To summarise, I reckon more slow miles and build up the speed sessions slowly and do your marathon paced runs in the second half of the plan. And do 5 x 20 milers rather than the 2/3 /forum/smilies/tongue_out_smiley.gif@d]p@d suggest. That's something like what I will be doing for mine anyway
Carter - thanks for the feedback. You've mentioned something that does concern me about P&D; I keep half an eye on a P&D thread on here and there seems a relatively large injury list which does worry me.
I think you're right about the LSR pace being too slow. I just looked back over the last few weeks and most of mine currently are between 10 and 10:30 so I'd probably go with that. When I do an LSR with the club, it tends to be quicker than this and ends up being more like a MP session anyway but I don't do those as often as I'd like due to time constraints.
I also hear what you're saying about dropping the speed/interval sessions up to Xmas. The thing is, the speed/intervals are probably my favourite sessions and the one session I try and attend every week with the club. I would be reluctant to let those go as I do enjoy them and the banter with the club mates, but would consider it if needed.
I also noticed there doesn't seem to be many 20 milers in P&D which was a surprise.
There's so much to consider, but I think if I'm serious the key for me is to up the mileage gradually/safely for my next marathon which is why I looked again at the 55-mile plan. I'm wondering whether to edit the plan and base it around the weekly mileage for the 18-weeks, but move things around a bit as you've described to a) help avoid injury b) get more longer runs in and c) introduce some MP sessions if possible.
Talking about speed sessions, last night I did a 6x600m session with the club, with 200m recovery.
Interval Time Dist Av Pace
1 2:29.4 0.37 6:39
2 2:35.0 0.38 6:53
3 2:34.6 0.38 6:48
4 2:33.3 0.37 6:51
5 2:33.5 0.37 6:50
6 2:28.0 0.37 6:35
It's not a measured course so it relied on me clicking the lap button on the Garmin at the start/end of the efforts but 0.37 of a mile is 595m (according to Google). I'm pretty pleased with that; it's relatively consistent and I finished strong, although I was gasping at the end which I suppose is the point!
Hi Big_G, Regarding the speed sessions. If you enjoy them I would carry on with them. Otherwise you may find yourself getting fed up.
If you are going to start a high mileage training plan it may be an idea to perform some conditioning a few weeks before the plan starts, whether that be in the form of hill running and/or gym sessions working on the core,glutes etc...
as i have posted before, I follow these exercises through my plan 3 or 4 times a week and I find they help with the smaller muscle groups, plus I can do them at home.
http://strengthrunning.com/2011/02/the-itb-rehab-routine-video-demonstration/
I know everyone to their own, but I find that because I suffer from ITB I have to make sure I work on the biomechanics all through my training plan.
I also have a chin up bar at home which is great for the core and upper body.
Hope that helps?
Nell - thanks for the link. I'll have a look through that.
Ran v hard last night for 35 mins at gym on treadmill. First mile slow then progressively faster. Tonight one knee a bit sore so just went out an easy jog for half an hour instead of my planned 5 miles.
Has oirish disappeared off the face of the earth?
I did a parkrun this morning (not a PB but enjoyable anyway) and then went to a pool with my wife. I haven't been swimming properly for years and found it hard this morning. I was a reasonable swimmer as a teenager (I swam for Devon on occasion) but I couldn't string more than 2 or 3 lengths of front crawl together without feeling it in my shoulders which is a bit embarrassing! My wife is still in the pool whilst I'm in the cafe sipping coffee
Big_G - Nell makea a good point about enjoying your speed sessions and carrying on with them so you dont get fed up.
I went for a 9 mile trot this morning in the howling wind and heavy rain, it was very enjoyable. I did the first 5 @ 30 seconds quicker than marathon pace and then a nice steady 4 miles. It's the first speed session I have done in ages to went quit well really. The knee hurt a little bit but not too bad. Overall, a decent run
Hi Big_G/Carter. Nice running today, I have looked at the forecast for the morning here in Edinburgh and looks like it will be a wet run! Having a rest day today, dropped the kids off at swimming this morning and that is as close as I got to the pool before taking myself off to Homebase for paint samples for the living room
Hi Ali, I kind of fell in to that trap after the marathon earlier this year and came back with a couple of hard/fast sessions and the knee started playing up a bit, so I had a little rest more. In the end had about 2 weeks before I got back to easing into the running again. Everyone is different I guess, but I did read if you came back too hard you can bring on knee problems such as ITB and the advice is for recovery runs to begin with, short ones...
Talking of knees my left knee is starting to feel a bit odd, hoping it is not the ITB coming back! Will see how I get on tomorrow morning...
Some good running going on here at the moment and some interesting P&D debates.
i have tried P&D but am not convinced that it is right for me. maybe this is because I have been trying to do the 12 week plan and have always felt that I have been playing catch up.
Ricky seems to have thrived on it so maybe it does work.
anyway since I came back from my travels this week I have got no running in. came down with a nasty virus on Thursday and went to bed. Did not get up until late afternoon yesterday and only then as my OH is away and I needed to take kids to various places.
still feeling under th weather today and must be very careful to get over this as if I do not it will longer on and that would destroy my Dublon attempt at a PB.
had to take my little fella to see the consultant last night and he decided that he needed an operation on his elbow as it was not mending itself. So since 1pm today have been at the hospital. Operation was at about 4pm and he is still sleeping it off.
not the best preparation for a marathon if I am honest.
so I am going to have to forget about the last 20 mile LSR that was planned for this weekend and rethink the next 2 weeks.
interested in suggestions as to what I should concentrate on.
Ali - I seem to remember Oirish saying that he had to pull out of Dublin because he was changing jobs or something an was going to be frantically busy.
knowing him he has probably run a fee more solo marathons and will tell us the stories when he gets back. Or maybe he went for one of his famous runs
How many weeks is it till Dublin Carl? I didn't get my last planned LSR in before Inverness... so my last 18 miler was 4 (I think) weeks before the event. I had done a HM 3 weeks before, then ended up with 15 miles 2 weeks before, and 9 with one week to go.
I did my 15 miles a good bit faster than my LSR pace, about 20 secs slower than MP, which felt quite fast in training. That I could do that in training gave me a confidence boost.
The week running up to the marathon I focussed on short sharp sessions (suggestion of Ricky) and though I don't think I ran longer than 4 miles I kept pace up especially on the even shorter runs.
Honestly I think the main thing is not to try and overcompensate for missed runs by tiring yourself. You want to feel well rested and sharp for the big day so I'd keep trying to get in the faster paced sessions and not let yourself feel worried about mileage.
Nell- yes I do think that given the marathon was just 2 weeks ago I came back to training a bit hard, I did park run last Saturday and every run since then was a bit too ambitious in terms of pace I think culminating with treadmill on Thursday which left my knee distinctly sore.
It is just tempting when you feel good and quite well recovered to fling yourself back into things. But yesterday and today's runs have been slow and easy and my knee feels a bit less noticable now which is good. So hopefully next week it won't bother me and I can be back to my best!
Ali - just be careful. A Marathon takes more out of than you realise. I fell into the same trap after my Spring Marathon and ran a few hard speed sessions within the 2 week period following & picked a groin injury which then nagged on for 6 - 8 weeks after.
Carl - Ali is dead right. Do not try and squeeze in the missed sessions & keep it short & sharp in the week preceding Dublin. Seemed to work for Ali! You picked up a bit of a virus at this stage before Paris if I remember rightly? On the positive side - better picking it up 2 weeks out rather than 2 days out I suppose!
Big G - I have enjoyed the P&D 55mile plan. I did tweak it as, like you, the lack of 20 milers concerned me so I did six of them instead. The lack of speedwork also concerned me so I replaced one of the planned weekly recovery runs with a weekly speed session at the club.
I have had a bit of nightmare week at work - had to run my 8 miler with 5 x 800 intervals on the treadie @ 10pm on Wed night. Missed my Friday evening run completely but got out on a beautiful Autumn morning today for a planned 16 miler.
Ended up as 15.5 miles in just over 2 hrs... avg pace for the run was 7.54 pace which included a 9 m/ml warm up mile so was quite a hard run. Ran with W/Kenyan for first 12 and then he left me to take a different route as he was running is first and final 20 before Dublin. He managed 7.49 for the 20mls - not bad for a non existent training plan/calf injuries etc with longest run previously his HM races in September!
What my run this morning tells me is that 8 m/ml pace in Dublin will be a big ask so still intend to stick the original plan of 8.20 pace.... maybe allow myself to drift up to 8.10 if I feel good on the day.
Hi Ali, Yes I was in the same place as you back in June and was tempted to come back too strong. Good that you have noticed and eased off
Hi Carl, I am with you regards to the 12 week plan, I will not use one again. I too feel I have been playing catch up and at the end I am feeling somewhat cheated after feeling short on 20 milers (2 in total). I have been on call this weekend and was called early hours this morning, managed to defer things until this morning which meant that I started my run at 16:30 and had to get back for 18:30. So 20 miles was not going to happen. I got in 15 miles, and was not ideal as I had already been on my feet all day. The knee felt a bit odd a couple of times. I am hoping the ITB is not on it's way back. So 15 miles today and I will run 10 next week. You are right Ali no point trying to play catch up now, I will start going into the taper now....
Popping by to say "hi" - I'm struggling to keep up with the thread, just general business of life really, but I am still running (working on speed for a fast 10K in May) Good to see you all around still.....*waves*......
Ali - Dublin is 2 weeks today.
Nell - I think the problem with a 12 week plan is you need to go into it with a good base built up and injury free. You have not got too much leeway to miss tmuch any sessions. Did not achieve either of them with this plan so that mnot be contributing to me being slightly uncertain about P&D. Lesson for the next time.
Ricky - yes I picked up a virus before my spring HM but came back and delivered a 6 min PB on a challenging course on a freezing cold day. So you never know ......
Rachel - great to hear from you and that you are still running. Try to stick around. It will help.
Morning all, hope everyone is well.
Fairly quiet on the running front for me last week, 21 miles in 3 runs. I was off work for a couple of days when you would think I would have more time for running, but it just didn't turn out like that. I picked up my new road bike and took it for a spin on Friday. It was so light that I fairly flew up the couple of hills I attempted, by my standards anyway. Not that I'm a fair weather cyclist but the weather up here has been rubbish recently so I don't want to go out on the wet hills with strong winds until i feel more comfortable on the bike. I also have to get used to getting my feet out of the pedals without falling flat on my face !
Stay fit and healthy all of you with upcoming races
Hi Carl, yes you are spot on. Hence, think I'll try and stick to a 16 week plan next time. I think in the spring I had less distractions at work also and maintained a good routine in my training. The last few weeks have been hard maintaining things, I can see you have also been all over the place. Anyway we are where we are, just have to go out and enjoy it ;0)
I certainly hope I do not experience the wind and rain I did yesterday on the run, although I have been there before on the NE coast. I remember being on holiday when the kids were really young and experiencing weather more suited to November than the month of July we were there.....
Hi Rachel! Hope that you are well and life and running treating you good. What 10k are you doing? I fancy entering a 10k myself soon, I forget how much I like them.
who has a race coming up soon? Anyone sooner than the Dublin guys?
Ali - I think it may well be me up next. I've got Dartmoor Vale on Sunday, but I fear that after the race I will still be an imposter on this thread as I really don't think I'm going to do sub-4. I drove a bit of the course the other day and I had kind of forgotten (or wiped it from my memory?) how steep one section is, which I will have to do twice. The start is only a couple of miles from my house though so it's as local as they come, and I know quite a few people who are doing it so I'm looking forward to it from that perspective. This time last year I did the Half in just over 1hr50min and I'd say I'm in similar shape to what I was then.
There is a 5K time trial on a measured course that my club are doing tomorrow. I really want to do it, but the question is can I hold myself back and use it as a steady paced run as opposed to "eyeballs out" this close to the marathon
Don't worry about your time G. Just go and do your best. A good race doesn't always have to be a fast one (though it sweetens the deal). Pace well, race well, give it your all.
If I were you I wouldn't go to the time trial only cos I know I'd not be able to resist going out hard and I'd maybe regret it later. That's just me though.
Looking forward to a race report from you on an interesting and different race to the big city marathons.
Big G - you are no imposter on this thread. You just go and do your best on Sunday. Whatever happens happens. I think you will do better than you are thinking. Always difficult in the days before a big race to feel confident. When you stand on the start line you will be fine.
You have trained well, got in some good club sessions and have had a few good races along the way.
You will be fine.
I am with Ali. I would stay away from the time trial. It will mess with your head. It is a bit too close to your big race. We are all the same. We say we will run it as a training run but then the adreniline kicks in, the braiin stops working and we go for it. Easy to do some damage.
Resist is my advice.
BigG - similar advice from me..... just go out, relax & enjoy it - you might just surprise yourself! And stay away from that 5k!
.... it was an 8 miler with 3 x 1mile intervals @ 5k pace. I ran a 9 m/ml warm up then moved up to MP of 8.20 for mile 2. Mile 3, 5 & 7 were 6.51, 6.54 & 6.53 respectively. The recovery miles in between were also @ MP of 8.20 and total time was just over 62 mins for the 8 miles.
Well I ran my last speed session of the P&D 18 week plan tonight - all a bit emotional really
P&D - I will miss you
Thanks for the vote of confidence everyone. That's appreciated. Taking your advice, I won't be doing the time trial tomorrow. There'll be others that better fit in with my schedule.
Ricky - that's a great final speed session. You're looking in great form!
I got a nice 12-miler in on Sunday and really enjoyed it, so that was encouraging. It was a bit off-road and it was a great morning to be out in perfect running conditions. I had set out to do 10 but I got a bit lost and had to double back at one point as I mistakenly thought there was a bridge to cross a river I was running beside, but the bridge never appeared.
I got a 6-miler in today with 2 separate 1 mile sections with a burst of pace and enjoyed that one as well. I'll do 6ish on Thursday and am aiming to do a flat 4 on Saturday and that's it for me!
I'm trying to do plenty of stretches, and I'll have a pint of water on the go all the time to help with hydration. I'm currently looking forward to Sunday, but I know I'll be nervous on the morning as I always am!!
Ricky - you are the man. Not sure I will miss P&D but then not sure I embraced it the way you did.
So who has planned their big marathon races for next year.
My ultimate goal is to qualify to run Boston. But I will need to wait until I am over 45. At this point the qualifying time goes up from 3:15 to 3:25.
So my goal is to achieve a 3:25 marathon next year to allow me enter Boston in 2016.
Long term planning !!!!
To enter the 2015 Boston I would need to have the qualifying time acheieved somewhere between beginning May and September. This might be a tough ask.
So next year I will either go for Berlin in September or Chicago in October.
This means that I would need to stay local in the Spring. I am considering Manchester (pancake flat) in early April but might prefer to do one in May which would make the training a little easier during the winter months. Options could include Milton Keynes, Edinburgh (7 weeks after Manchester) or Halstead.
I am tempted to run Paris again as it was a lovely course but again it is a tad early.
Once I have settled on the big ones I can start fitting in the shorter races.
I must also investigate joining a running club.
Big_G - a sensible choice to give the time trial a miss in my opinion. You've had a good year of running so go to the race feeling confident.
Carl - finishing any marathon at all is my goal for next year, in fact getting to the starting line of one will bloody do me !! At this stage I think it will be Manchester for me too.
Ricky - a perfect end to a great 18 week plan for you. A massive PB is on the cards for you I reckon
Hello all, where have you all been hiding?
Blimey you turn your back for the merest month or so and you all go plain running crazy on me.
I took advantage of England being on the box (seriously, who cares if they get to stink out another tournament?) and play catch up by speed reading through the many, many, MANY pages of posts since my last drop by. I think I have a handle on where people are at and what a good time is being had by all, there has been some stellar performances. Ricky seems to be half man, half machine these days and well done Ali on going sub 4, a superb effort and an absorbing race report an it seems to be all guns blazing across the board.
As for me in the last few weeks have been really hectic, I have been very disciplined and kept away from here to get a "project" done and hopefully I might have an announcement in the coming weeks, I have had a touch of tendonitis in my ankle so training has been a bit hit and miss but I feel ok now though. I am now on taper for the Stort30 and because of the disruption to my plans my target is now to "get around in one piece and be able to walk again afterwards"
I had my traditional terrible final long run on Sunday, 25 miles in the driving relentless rain and felt so,so rough afterwards, my last run is always a disaster so I am quietly optimistic as this has usually led on to a half decent race.
I have also got my home "hilly" Parkrun PB down below 21 minutes clocking 20:59, that counts!!
and on Saturday won Parkrunner of the month for September which entitles me to a free fitting and pair of shoes of my choice from any Sweatshop store which is handy as mine are due for replacing. I've been on their website as I know they don't carry Zoots which I am using at the mo to see what they have that is similiar.
My God there is some awful mumbo jumbo made up science spouted about trainers!!!
I've stopped reading as it just gives me headaches.
Anyhoo let the taper madness grow.
Good to have you back Oirish!
I made a load of Fat Rascals, for carb loading purposes you understand