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Carter - another interesting marathon topic. What and how to fuel. I am about to start experimenting on my long runs. Up to now, I have not been taking liquid with me but 15+ miles I sortof need it.
I am not convinced that gels work for me. I have taken different types and different flavours over the last few marathons but I think I feel unwell after talking them.
So I need an alternative but not sure what is best ......
Anyway got to the track during ligts on tonight. It was massively busy. Fortunately no rugby players tonight. They were outside the perimeter fence.
So the plan was 1 mile w/u, followed by 12 x 400m reps at 6:20 (5k) pace and then 1 mile c/d
How hard can that be ?
Hard is the answer. I did not have the best of sleep last night so was tired from this which was probably why it was hard.
It was also cold and windy, in fact very windy at times.
w/u and c/d at 8:41 and 9:32 m/m.
I knocked the intervals out as follows :
94s; 93s; 92s; 92s; 92s; 92s;
88s; 91s; 94s; 91s; 91s; 88s
Slowest at 6:16m/m and fastest at 5:54m/m
Really great to go fast for the 12th one. Always pleasing eventhough you are knackered.
I thought I was doing these fast.
The club guys showed me tonight that I am not really good enough to be on the same track as them. They are all very tall and athletic unlike me. On lap 9 I thought I was pushing hard and one of them overtook me and pulled away. He was doing a multiple lap run. I did not let it crush me but when you are giving it everything and you are made to feel slow it is a concern .... convinced me that joining this club would not be a good idea, would always be out the back of the group ... I am assuming that this is the speedy bunch ... makes me feel a little better ...
Carter- on the topic of fuel: I can do my LSRs during training absolutely fine with either just water, or a sports drink. No problems. However having now done 3 marathons I cannot imagine doing race day without fuel. It's different on the day, you're running a lot faster, and by the time you get to 20 miles if you haven't had fuel you will feel like you're dying. Horrid.
My tactic is to go easy come easy go with training. Train with what I feel like. I always take a debit card with me so I can stop and get a sports drink somewhere if I need to.
But then I always have at least a practice run of 'solid' fueling (ie gels) for race day. I really really like 'High 5' gels- they are fruity and quite liquidy as opposed to some that are more gooey and hard to swallow. So now these are my go to and I know they work.
Part of what made Loch Ness such a success for me, I am CERTAIN, was that I got my fueling spot on on race day. I started taking gels from quite early on...maybe about 6 miles if I remember right...and I took them at least every half hour after, or maybe slightly more frequently. They were something to 'look forward' to, and I never ever hit 'the wall' or felt that my legs or muscles in general were depleted.
Carl- those dudes must have been fast indeed.... to make you feel slow... I wonder how slow I would have felt!!!
Tonight I was meeting a friend at the gym after work but it was so busy we couldn't even get two machines together and we wanted to have a bit of a catch up (hadn't seen her in ages). So we went for a run outside instead for 30 minutes, which was nice. Then I came back to the gym and it had quietened down so I did another 45 minutes on the treadmill there.
So 1 hr 15 running tonight. Not sure exact distance combined but when we ran outside it was v slow, so perhaps 7 miles total between outside and treadmill. I brought my iPad to the gym and watched an episode of Luther whilst doing my tready run.
Thanks for words of advice re: the HM in 6 weeks, I'm going to go with Nell's advice and leave it for a couple of weeks then see how I feel after I've had some good training.
Hi Ali, Love the idea of taking the debit card on the run, if it is all going wrong just stop at a café and get a Latte !
On race day I use the SIS gels, as I am a male I keep it simple: miles 5,10,15,20,25 by the time I get to mile 25 I have had enough of them but just get it down my neck for that last surge. I have one or two caffeine gels one of which is saved for mile 25.
Carl. Don't worry about them other guys. You are doing brilliant, great times. Just stick out a leg stretch when they pass next time, that will slow them down
Early down the gym for some S&C this morning. Ended up working tonight and got in at 21:30. Long day, my wife has gone to bed early as she is out running tomorrow morning.
I haven't got to go out sharp in the morning and will base myself from home I think, so might try and fit a few miles in before work somehow. Then footie tomorrow eve, that will be my intervals!!
Haha Nell stopping for a Latte sounds ideal! I only started to bring my debit card after one particular long run where I went out, suddenly felt like death and super dehydrated, but had to make my whole way home before I could get a drink. Felt terrible and ever since don't like to think of being 10 miles away from home without any sustenance.
I've stopped for an ice-cream before. It went down a treat
I've also stopped for doughnuts and chips (separate occasions) which didn't quite give me the required kick, but were nice all the same 
Carl, one more point regarding your paces and then I'll drop it, I promise
Have you considered doing your LSRs based on aerobic HR zone rather than pace - you may get a shock if you try it. I first did this a couple of years ago, which is where I originally got my paces from. I am going to do it again this week or next though, to see if there is any movement (I suspect that if there is, it won't be much). I had actually forgotten that I had done this, but I looked back through my notes yesterday and remembered it.
And to answer your point about why so many threads touch on this subject, it is because so many people train at the wrong LSR pace and then blow up on race day and then come on here and ask why.
I know I'm in the minority about it on this particular thread, so I won't say any more now unless there are questions about working out HR paces etc. I guess people migrate to what they want to read - other threads on here are very much in the "going slow on LSR" camp and that chimes much more with me. This is fine - we're all different
BIg_G, I could understand an ice cream, but chips??
superb!
I hear what you say on the LSR theory Big_G, I do think you have to work hard to find what works for yourself. The amount of people I have spoken to and have different theories is amazing. I do know two people who have ran their LSR's at MP, one it works for the other blew up on marathon day.
I suppose that is what makes things so hard sometimes...
Been lurking around this thread for a couple of weeks now and decided it’s time to ‘come in’
One marathon under my belt in 2011 ( Dublin) and lucky enough to have a place in this year’s VLM, I’m hoping to do a time in 3.30 to 3.45 bracket, so this seems the place to be!
Really struggling with this whole spring marathon training thing due to shortage of daylight hours (I live in the sticks) and the weather, as well as the usual family and work commitments.
But I’ve been getting encouragement from reading the posts on here and knowing I’m not on my own in facing those.
I’m 3 weeks into a 14 week programme cobbled together from a few different sources and tailored to being a workable schedule.
Strangely enough the thing I’m having most trouble with at the moment is pacing my LSR. Last Sunday’s one I did at avg 5.04/km (8.09m/m) for 21km, but I’m feeling I need to slow that a bit as the LSR mileage increases to aid recovery and keep something in reserve for the weeks to come.
Chips, ice cream, latte...what a combination.
Canter - welcome. If you're looking for similar marathon times to us then you need to slow your long runs down by quite a lot. Did you run all your long runs so fast in training for Dublin ? What time did you run ? What does a week look like for you in your current training plan ?
So, after last weeks 43 miles I am aiming to do another 40+ this week as well. This would be the first time I've achieved this in 10 months if I manage it. Tuesday lunch time was a short 5 miles and today I did 10 miles all at marathon pace. I ran around Holme Pierrepont water sports centre and miles 5 - 8 were very exposed to a really strong wind which really took it out of me. Saturday I'm running the Kinder Trial in the Peak District which is an 11 mile fell/navigation race. That means Sunday I need to run about 13 miles, depending if I get lost up Kinder Scout or not ! The knees are still creaking when I run with the original ITB knee now coping better than the other one.
Hope everyone's training is going well
Cheers Carter – to be honest I was less than meticulous in documenting my training first time around. I loosely followed a Hal Higson beginner’s programme (I’d used the HM equivalent to get me round the Royal Parks previously), and from memory the two longest runs were 18m and 20m which I did at around 5.30-5.50 m/km (8.50-9.25 m/m)
My marathon time was 3:54:03. That’s 5.32/km (8.54m/m) pace.
So I’m a bit unclear how those correlate.
First few weeks this time the mileage has definitely increased from before - 42m, 45m, 43m. That’s been a mixture of end of week LSR (max 13m so far), and some steady/progression/speed work midweek. 4-5 days running on average.
Today I’ll do 6m with 1m slow beginning and end, and 4m in the middle at HM pace 4.39/km (7.30/m)
Tired just typing that up!
Canter - your marathon pace of 8:54 and training runs of 8:50-9:25 are to near each other, I think your training runs should be 9:45-10:15 pace (my target marathon pace is 8:30 and my long runs are at 9:30-9:45.
For 5 sessions a week you should be including a long run, a medium run, intervals and/or tempo run and a couple of shorter, easy runs. Some hill sessions would also be good to fit in somewhere as would including some marathon paced miles in your longer runs. My training for last year looked something like this.
Tuesday - Medium run, start at about 8 miles and build up to 14 miles
Wednesday - 5 mile easy run
Thursday - tempo run, 1 mile w/u, 3-7 miles @ tempo pace, 1 mile c/d
Saturday - long run, start at about 12 miles and build up to 20 (try and do a 22 miler if you can)
Sunday - recovery run.
I think your paces need to be about the following:
Long run 9:45-10:15
Medium run - 9:30-10:00
Tempo run - 7:30
Intervals - 400m @ 6:50, 800m @ 7:00, 1200m @ 7:10, 1600m @ 7:20
Easy runs - 10:00-10:30
My view is that the long run is the most important run of the week so you should try and nail the pace of that run more than the others. Of course, running a lot of your training runs at marathon pace could likely lead to burn out and/or injury.
If you want to keep a record of your training plan and runs so far send me a message with your email address and I could send you a spreadsheet with my plan on which you could use to keep track of your runs
Thanks for the offer Carter - the day job means that I'm all spreadsheeted up with plan versus actual and variance calculations.
That tempo run went well at lunchtime today
1m - 9.07
2 - 7.06
3 - 7.12
4 - 7.11
5 - 7.09
6 - 8.54
Those middle miles are just inside my HM pace, so pacing is not an issue for me on those type of runs.
I'll be doing half of my LSR miles at MP this weekend.
Although the weather might have something to say about that.
Canter - another spreadsheet geek eh !
According to the McMillan calculator:
Target 3:45 - this is 8:35 pace
Target 3:30 - this is 7:52 pace
In my opinion, you need to settle on one target time and train to that, as there is 43 seconds per mile difference between 3:30 and 3:45 and that's a lot of time over the marathon distance.
When you have decided your target you can work on your long runs being Marathon pace + 60-90 seconds.
Good tempo run today
Hi Canter and welcome
I would agree with Carter on choosing a target time. In a marathon it feels hugely different to run at one pace vs the pace for 15 minutes quicker! I am desperately trying to shave just 5 minutes off my PB for my next one. So pick what time you go for and train accordingly.
Big G- I am a bit torn over the idea of chips whilst running! I think they wouldn't last long before coming up again for me...though ice cream sounds a very nice idea indeed.
Last night I did 9 miles at 9:56 pace, I don't know why but it felt soooo hard. I was wanting to do around 9:30 pace like I did the other week with relative ease but my legs were tired (probably just from starting to ramp up the mileage even every so slightly for me) and it felt a slog. But I got there. Today a rest day then will get in 6 miles or so after work tomorrow.
Hope everyone has a good weekend!
Kinder Trial for me tomorrow. An 11 mile fell race up Kinder Scout and my first race that requires navigation/ map reading so should be rather interesting. It's been raining all afternoon and night so it's going to be very wet and muddy up there
Good luck carter!
The Kinder Trial is an 11 mile fell race where navigation is required. You get the route map 2 minutes before your start time where people are set of in pairs every 30 seconds. I got my map and my mind went blank with regards my recently acquired navigation skills. Off I trotted into the village of Hayfield and went in search of the first path I wanted to take. I found the signpost which pointed straight into someone's garden so I looked for another route. A couple were foolishly following me thinking I knew were I was going ! I found the route I wanted to take and headed off. After a mile or so I realised I couldn't see any other runners but after another check of my map I was happy with the route I was taking. I was going down a footpath which was a longer route then going directly to the first checkpoint and shortly I could see other runners who obviously went in a direct line across fields and open moorland. This stage of the trail was really muddy, rocky and very steep so there was plenty of walking. I got to checkpoint 1 and looked at my map to see where checkpoint 2 was. It was at this stage, and after chatting to another runner, that I realised I had made my first schoolboy error. I had passed checkpoints 2 & 4 on my way to 1 and I didn't realise that you could visit checkpoints in any order you want to. Retracing my steps would have added on at least another 30 minutes so I made the decision not to go back to the other checkpoints even though I knew this would mean a DQ. It was my first race so I was just happy to have the experience and learn from the day. Onwards I went and at Kinder Reservoir there was no sign of any footpaths at all. This is where the nap reading skills come in handy so I took my bearing and headed across some exposed, open moorland. It was extremely muddy underfoot and with loads of tussocsk and long grass the ground was really uneven and not runnable in places. I spent the next hour making very slow progress while the more experienced fell runners where flying by me as though they were running on a flat, smooth surface. The heavy, boggy ground was playing havoc with my legs, they just were struggling to put one in front of the other. At about the halfway point I decided to go to the next checkpoint in a straight line from where I was. This proved to be the wrong decision as the ground got even heavier and after wading through several streams I had had enough. In hindsight I then made my next bad decision by deciding to call it a day. My progress had been that slow that I had covered about 6 miles in 2 hours and I had in my mind a finishing time of 2 hours. So I headed back to race hq where I enjoyed some cake and tea.
Looking back, I did not give this race the respect it deserved. Me thinking I could do it in 2 hours was ridiculous, especially considering one of the top blokes in the field came in at 2:07 shortly after me. Despite everything I really enjoyed
Despite everything I really enjoyed it and learnt a lot. Just because I can knock out 20 miles on a road does not mean I can easily complete an 11 mile fell race. The jump from a 6 mile fell race to an 11 miler is a big jump so I need to train accordingly. 'Proper' fell racing is really hard and a lot more difficult that what I have been used to running. I need to be more realistic about how long these events are going to take me. I only entered the race for enjoyment and not to try and run a really quick time so I do regret not finishing. I am pleased I didn't get lost and that my navigation skills worked well so will definitely be entering more of these types of events in the future
Well done for giving it a go Carter! That sounds incredibly tough!!
I've got a hilly 10-miler tomorrow and I've just received an email from the organisers that includes the following:
"As I am sure you are all aware, tomorrow is going to be "violently stormy" with winds gusting up to 70mph and torrential rain throughout the day."
Best take your brolly Big_G !
Carter I can't believe how tough that sounds. Well done. I think that kind of race I would find really hard because I would feel demoralised at going 'slowly' on the hard terrain. I think I'm just suited to road racing really.
Good luck tomorrow G is it part of your club championship?
I did 5.4 miles of very hilly running tonight in 49:55, 9:19 pace. I have stuck fairly closely to my first week of my RW marathon plan. I am going to do an easy 4m tomorrow night and then that will finish the week on approx 29 miles, which is a couple over the plan (27).
Was speaking to my mum today about how even after just one week back on a 'schedule' it feels really good to have more structure to my running and be working towards something rather than just doing stuff as and when I feel like it.
I did 1:19:42 according to my watch. I'm pleased with that. The 2 hills weren't too bad, but 6.5mile to 8.75mile was a brutal headwind and it was knee height in flood water at one point. Anyway, it's done. I'm back in the car park and just having tea and jam sarnies etc
Hi Canter, Welcome aboard! If undecided about a time why not aim halfway between 3:30 and 3:45, that would equate for about 8:17 min miles? That way if you are under or over it would not be too much of a gap. I think from looking at your times from your run the other day you could be good for nearer 3:30 than 3:45 providing your training goes well.
Good running guys on what has been a miserable weekend. I think I will leave the fell racing to you carter, I prefer somebody directing me which way to go ;0) Well done on your run today Big_G enjoy the shandies!
Hi Ali, Good to see someone is getting into shape for their training schedule. You are putting me in shame ;0
Well I dropped off my daughter at swimming yesterday (my son was off camping with the scouts would you believe!) and off I went for a 4 mile run. It was pouring, I got absolutely drenched, but oddly enough enjoyed the run. Averaged 7:43. I ran without looking at the watch and ran 7:57, 8:07, 7:29, 7:20. Run was mixed with road and trail and I had got up late and so ate too soon before going out so was not best prepared for my run. On the trail is were I suffered getting soaked underfoot most. Aimed not to push too hard and was pleased again with guessing the pace.
I went out again this morning, it wasn't as wet but windy. Every direction that I ran I felt the wind was seeking me out! Again ran without looking at the watch and tried to ease off a bit a run a bit more relaxed aiming for around 8:00 min/miles. Ran average 7:49 min/ miles 7:37,26,44,38,59,8:00,8:09,7:53,3:22 ended up running 8.5 miles. Not the most enjoyable run I must say. Will bump up a couple of miles next weekend and then it will be into my schedule for Edinburgh!
Been busy the last few days so not had a chance to come on here. So catching up.
Ali - they did make me feel slow. But they were the tall athletic type not like me !!
Big G - no worries about pace of LSR's. I did say that I would be reviewing the training plan around now in any case which is why I brought it up. A punishing week and then a punishing LSR at the weekend gives little time for the body to recover. I am probably going to slow them down a little in any case.
I have never done any HR type stuff. Always considered it a little too fiddly needing to have another strap and more data to look at. I might at some point in the future but not thgis time round.
But agree with you too Nell. It is about finding what works and going with it.
Welcome BK Canter - Grab a pew and join the debate. We are a friendly lot.
Balancing training with work and family life is always a challenge. Add the short drak cold and wet days that we have been having does not make it any easier.
We have just been having a debate about pacing for LSR;'s. You can see that there is not strict alignment between us as what is slow for one is fast for another.
Hi all - have read a lot of this thread over the last 2 weeks and would really appreciate a few comments. Not sure I can add much to the debate but all the themes discussed are those that I've been thinking about recently.
I've got my first marathon on the horizon (London - fluked a ballot place!). I've never followed a formal training plan but read up over Xmas and am following a semi-formal one since. I am 45 and took up running between age 35-37 (when I stopped other sports), But I then got injured (achilles) and ran a few more races but then stopped.
I started again 18 months ago and ran 4 halfs and a couple of 10ks in 2013. Two halfs were 1.38 and one 1.37 (1.43 at the GNR but the crowds probably explain that). If I enter the 1.37 in the McMillan calculator I get 3.25 but having never run more than 13.1 miles that seems a riduculous target for a first marathon. I feel that I should see how it goes with the training before setting a target pace somewhere between 8 and 9m/mile.
Since Xmas have been extending the Sunday long runs and have done 14,15,13,16 miles over the last 4 weeks. Did start off at 8-8.30 pace but having read this thread and some other stuff I am slowing down to 9-9.30.
Apart from Sat/Sun I usually only run twice during the week but in Feb/Mar I intend to introduce a faster session - either a Parkrun on Sat morning or I could try to get to a mid-week track session run buy the club I've joined.
I have a couple of long races booked (a 30k and 20m) in Feb/Mar and having seen the advice on here will introduce some MP miles into my LR.
Any other advice really appreciated.Tarq.
Ali - nice running in the hills and at a very decent pace, a good start to your training plan. Like you, I find comfort in following a training plan.
Big_G - good running today, I can only imagine what the weather conditions are like down your neck of the woods at the moment. Does it have much of an affect when your run along roads rather than trails ?
Nell - will you stop playing football when you start your training for Edinburgh ? Or would you use it as an interval type session ?
Carl - there's nowt wrong with not being one of those tall athletic types. When I was doing my fell race yesterday and was about crawling on my hands and knees quite a few of those types went flying by me. I don't know how they manage it on such terrain but they appeared to be just gliding along, most definitely not like me ! Are you only going to be changing the pace of your long runs or will there be any other changes to your plan as well ?
Hi Tarq and welcome. This time last year I was the same age as you and in the more or less the same situation regarding it being my first marathon. The advice I would give you is as follows: get yourself a training plan (whether it's off the internet, this website or one you cobble together yourself). Try and run 4 or 5 times a week if you possibly can, everyone on here has stories of sessions or races missed due to other commitments so if you have to miss a session it's not going to affect your training to much. I know there are training plans that have only 3 sessions a week but I think 5 is a good number to do. If possible, try and get 3-5 long runs of 20 miles into your training plan. You only have 11 weeks until London so this might prove to be slightly difficult to achieve as I wouldn't suggest doing 2 long runs in 2 weeks if this is your first marathon. Definitely slow your long runs down as you have already stated you are going to. The main advice I would give a man of your age (no offence, I am a year older) is do not do too much too soon. I was training for Manchester last year and I got injured by doing too much and not resting enough. I have been struggling with the injury for the last 10 months and it is making training for Manchester this year quite tricky as I'm not able to do the miles I think I need to do. Just remember, that there are loads more marathons out there but you cant run in any of them if you are injured. Good luck and keep in touch