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RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00
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Carl – quite right not to be too bothered about that mentoring thing. After all if you want some amateurish advice from people vastly under qualified to give it, mixed with an unhealthy dose of self- appointed importance and you feel the need to be bossed out by people you’ve never met, then you can just stick around on this thread
That was a very good 12m session – good mix of distance, pacing and elevation. 768ft is not too shabby.
Carter – the RW appearance was sponsored by Proctor & Gamble: all head and shoulders only!
I’m not sure I could manage 5 over 20 – logistics and domestic harmony being as much of a challenge as anything else.
That planned step up in mileage is bang on in terms of recommended increment from week to week.
Nell – my athletic shuffle is about as far away as is possible to be from that diagram. I’m a bit more like the leaning tower of Pisa in trainers
PS – yes, on the day I was struck by that aspect of the profiling, but I’m pretty sure it would have been representative of the overall applications they received. The other interesting spread was the age groups represented – I thought there’d be a few more of the middle age plus vintage, but again it’s all about who applies.
Washwood – based on those times you should definitely be aiming for sub 3.45. But as others have said you might struggle to achieve that with your LSRs at the current pace. How many of those have you got in the plan (over 20m), and what does it say about pacing?
Today's session:
2m jog, 5x 800m @ 5k speed, with 2 min recoveries, then 2m jog.
Spilts were 3.06; 3.05; 3.05; 3.00; 3.00;
after which there was no problem keep to 9 min/m warm down pace.
BK I also noticed that it looked like a very young bunch too (yourself included too of course). I've never really thought about it before. Probably as I'm in denial about my age and still consider myself to be in my early twenties. That would really be quite something given I've got a child who'll be 13 in a few months.
I think last time I did 2 x 20 miles, 1 x 21 miles and 1 x 22 miles. That felt like a lot and was certainly more than I 'd done in my previous efforts.
Carter that BPC sounds so grim. I'm not sure that a little chocolate is going to help you much. Well done in staying off the booze. My week is not going to go well on that front. I'm going for a drink after pilates tonight, out for dinner tomorrow night and then drinks with running friends on Thursday night. It's just over a month until we go to the States and I've suddenly become popular. Everyone wanting to be nice to me so they can have a free holiday!
Carl I have no idea at all what the diagram means so when you've worked it out please can you tell me. Ta.
Washwood which new Garmin do you have? I have an ancient 405 and want a new one for my birthday.
Hill sprints this morning for me. Supposed to be 30 secs each. The first one was 32 secs. Got a fastest one of 28 secs. Others (I had to do 8 in total) varying between that. 5 miles done in total.
Tomorrow it's my worst day - run (at least it's an easy one this week) then plyometric. Bleurgh.
Canter - speedy 800s there. I get what you mean about balancing the home life, it can be very challenging indeed sometimes. Bless them eh.
PS - are you currently trying to keep off the booze ? I'm sure you must be popular anyway and your friends just want to see you before you go ! I had a 405 and moved on to a 610, pretty similar spec but the battery lasts longer on the 610.
5 miles at lunchtime for me. Down by the river it was a lovely day and I managed to chug along at 9:30 average, not too bad but felt it a bit...
On my way home to bring my eldest daughter for a try out with the local running club. They had told me they were full for the kids session on the track on a Tuesday evening. But my OH met someone through a friend who is involved and she told us to bring her along.
What an evening for a first running session. It is freezing cold and whilst ok for us hardened battle weary veterans am not so sure about the initiated just turned 9 year old ( going on 16 at times !! )
Report back later on a success or an unmitigated disaster.
Of course I have another motive. My training plan calls on 6 runs a week with 2 at the weekend. If I could encourage the running bug them my short run on a Saturday can be all about taking the little one out and them I can add a few miles at the end after dropping her home. Let's see if I can make this happen.
Yes Carl we must fight to keep our page in the mix. We are very important people don't you know.
Washwood- I reckon you're well capable of a 3:40 marathon but then the first marathon is always a bit of unknown territory. Nothing wrong with aiming for 3:45 at all, it's not too ambitious given your other times. Aim high, get as high as possible.
Nell- talking of running form, something I read somewhere (probably some running blog as I read a lot) was the idea of during long runs using different sections to focus on different elements of form, in the hopes that after doing this a few times they all come together. So for example you could use two miles to focus on pushing forward from the hips, use another two miles to focus on cadence, use another two miles to focus on arm movement... I try it sometimes and it sure passes the time and also focusses you on your body which is never a bad thing for us.
Carl- good pace on the 12 miler, well done. Your mileage has been excellent recently.
Carter- good luck for your 45 mile week, what will that look like for you? I wouldn't worry just now about speedwork too much.... I have always found it the least important part of marathon training but that might just be me. I did my first marathon with no speed work at all and ran a 4:04 time which was much better than I expected to do!
Canter- great 800s, they are my least favourite intervals being rather long but they are very good for you! The longer the interval, the better for marathon training, but the less I want to do them!
PS- don't worry about the booze. Honestly, you only move to the US once in your life. Enjoy these few days of ever so slight indulgence, that's all it is.
Today I got in 6.2 miles at an easy pace. I had wanted to do it faster but truth be told there is nowhere in the city just now that you could dare to run fast... everywhere is frozen solid and dangerous! I ran along the canal but even that was very slippy today so I was being very careful. 10 min mile pace but even that felt tough on the legs as I think my calves were having to do quite a lot of 'holding me up'!
Then my Ab and Squat challenge and some upper body work at home.
Wanted to say something also..... I had a period where I didn't post on here too much, was so busy with my course/job and couldn't seem to find the time.
I've been posting much more recently and it really keeps me motivated. I've 'known' lots of you same faces for quite some time now and I really do enjoy hearing about all your training and getting motivated/inspired to keep doing my own. Thank you all very much for continuing to post here and keep each other up to date, even though some of you are way ahead of the 'sub 4 marathon' goalpost... you really keep me going!
Hi Carl, Well done on the 12 miles. yes, those diagrams look very different. I'll take the bottom one!
Hi Carter, It is hard running a schedule through the Christmas period (pardon the pun) you have plenty of time to get some good training sessions in before Manchester. Still not convinced on the coffee!
Hi Canter, Nice interval session. impressive splits!
Hi Washwood, You will be fine
Hi PS, Can't beat a good Hill session... at least we have always been nice to you Feeling quite inferior, I just have a 110, does me, I'm a simple creature....
Hi Ali, Yes I have read that on focussing on different elements of the running form throughout a long run. That is what we were also told on the Chi running course. Also on shorter runs to just focus on one or two aspects throughout that run. I find it helps on the marathons too. Yes we are all here to support one another Ali
Treadmill session this morning as it was a bit icy early on where I live so thought best not to attempt an interval session on the roads. Went to the gym and ran 4 x 800M @ 16KPH with 400M recoveries @ 12KPH and then 3 x 300M @ 18KPH just recovering in-between!
Well, I think tonight was a success. Brought both girls with me (just 9 and 7.5). It was cold. Very cold. Wrapped them up as warm as I could and after much grumbling from the older of the two we made our way across to the running track.
There must have been easily 100 ranging from the 7/8 years of age upto 16/17 years. The older ones were doing serious track sessions. I was impressed with their speed. The younger one were tonight doing a few 'laps' outside the track on the paths of Hampstead Heath. Then they had a water break. Then off over the railings to do some sort of 'game' up on the slops of the Heath all in the yellow hi-vis vests. But this got them running up and down the hills. And of course gave me 2 sets of very mucky trainers to clean (which they need for PE at school in the morning !!).
They told me that they had to walk some of the initial laps and I told them not to worry as we all have to walk every now and then and they are not used to running for 45 / 50 minutes.
And they met one or two new friends so they seemed happy enough and so far are talking about going back next week.
So the next thing is to get them out for a short trot on Saturdays giving me an excuse to get a few miles in and then I can do my longer run early Sunday morning (footie permitting).
All good.
So after bringing them back home I set off for my track session. Even though I had an overcoat on and hat I was cold after being out in the elements for over an hour. Never really warmed up.
Combination of doing intervals and the track being the coldest place on earth. That might be a slight exaggeration.
It was very cold and had a chilling wind. It was icy in places and it rained on me for a while. Quite unpleasant.
After a 2 miles warm up at 8:28m/m pace and as this is a 'cut-back' week before I start marathon training proper I decided that i would not put my body under the strain of 800m sets and would do 400m sets instead.
The track was busy and as well as having to go round the bunch at the start / finish line as I was alternating from the start and 200m line for my sets, I also had to contend with the rugby crowd who initially were using the back straight and then when the running groups departed decided that a rolling 100m around the track using the inside 4 lanes was a good idea !!
I set myself a target of 12 sets and figured that 90 - 95 secs would be about the right pace.
I found this session quite tough. And it was as if my body was telling me that it has been pushed too much over the last few weeks and needed a rest. It would have been so easy to stop after 8 or 10 and call it a night as it was brutal. But i stuck to the task in hand.
Splits were as follows :
87 ; 90 ; 86 ; 89 ; 88 ; 91 ;
92 ; 90 ; 91 ; 92 ; 88 ; 88
No wonder it was tough. I was running faster than I set out to do.
So as I am meant to be doing less this week only did 1mile cool down at 9:57 min miling instead of the usual 2 miles.
Overall a great night. Got a decent session in and also got the two girls out for their first run.
Happy days.
Carl - very sneaky indeed, well done ! I guess the obvious progression for the girls is a parkrun on Saturday mornings ? (subject to football, girlie sleepovers, cleaning trainers etc). Super set of 400s there and well done for completing the full set; as you say, it would have been easy not to. Have you had much snow down there yet ?
Ali - I agree. This fine group of runners can certainly keep me going when things get a bit tough. I find it reassuring to hear other people struggling with certain aspects of their running at different times, it makes me realise it's all part of running. My 45 mile week will consist of lots of very slow running; 2 lunchtime runs at work of about 5/6 miles each, a Wednesday run of 9 miles, a long run on Saturday of 20 (forever the optimist) and a short run on Sunday of about 6 miles. I've never worried too much about speedwork to be honest; last years marathon for example I did a maximum of one speed session per week, normally a tempo run, and some weeks I didn't do any. During the taper period I did 2/3 speed sessions a week.
Nell - I'm still not convinced by the coffee either ! My missus washed out my flask yesterday and commented on all the fatty remnants at the bottom. It can still be difficult to believe that a diet consisting of high fat can be good for you. Seems to be working at the moment though so will stick with it. Not sure what those kmh times convert into mph but as it’s you I suspect they were very quick ! Do they do treadmills in mph ?
PS – they are big in the US (obviously) wither their BPC so you will get every opportunity to try one !
Lots of snow overnight here in Sheffield, about 4/5 inches and it was still coming down when I took the mutts for a walk at 5:30 this morning. It’s forecast for the rest of the day too so should make tonight’s run interesting. I think I will have to don the trail shoes for a bit of extra grip. Have a good day everyone.
Morning all!
I'm at my desk feeling knackered after 5 miles easy this morning (meant to be 6 but stupid me didn't check my plan properly) and then plyometric workout. It's a lot to get done before having to sort the children out and get myself to work. Next week on the schedule it's 7 miles steady and then the plyo. I wish I hadn't read that as I'm already feeling scared!
Carl it's fantastic that your girls enjoyed running club. I take the 9 year old out with me sometimes and he loves it. Can't get the 12 year old to do it though. He'd much rather be playing truck simulator or bus simulator or goat simulator (that is a real game). Well done on those intervals too. I find speedwork such a challenge but you and Nell seem to have really nailed it.
Ali good run yesterday even in the conditions!
Carter how's the weather with you? I think it's pretty bad with my sister in Crow Edge. Luckily she has an AWD so can usually make it out.
I'm trying not to snigger at Carter's fatty bottom......
PS - I'm a bit further south than Crow Edge, on the south western edge of Sheffield. We've had about 4/5 inches so far with a bit more forecast for today (snigger away
). People have been laughing at my fatty bottom for years ! How was the pace on your easy miles this morning ?
8:51 per mile. Is that too fast? It felt nice and easy. Deilberately wasn't pushing it knowing I had the plyometric stuff to do when I got back.
PS - 10:00-10:30 min miles is the magic figure for your easy runs ! It's great that the 8:51 pace feels easy for you now but just think how easy 10:00 will feel. It really does work you know, long runs at what feels like a ridiculously slow pace means a lot of time on your feet but without overdoing things. I think I've mentioned this before but last year I did 3 long off road runs where I was on my feet for about 4 hours. I had to do some walking due to the terrain and hills but it turned out these runs lasted longer than my marathon race. And I didn't feel like I had overdone things either, bonus. Come race day you will be on the start line raring to go and then 9:00 min miles should feel easy for you too.
I've been on the RW7 thread that Carl and Ali applied for. The mentor there is TR and I remember from last year that he is a very knowledgeable chap. I've posted a question about my training/diet and TR is going to give some advice. He says he is also happy to help out anyone from this thread as well. If you're interested he can be found here http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/spring-marathon/rw-f7--sub-330/286416.html
This sounds stupid but I didn't realise that my easy runs should be the same pace as my LSRs - I just thought they were at a slower pace than my steady runs.
I know I really need to build on my endurance as we concluded that is where I am coming unstuck each time. Plus avoid burning out and injuries. By this point in my Chester training I was having (old) knee and (new) hip problems. At least here I'm not suffering and even my complaining foot seems happier.
That chap TR does seem to know what he's talking about. Thanks for the pointer.
I've always understood that each session should have a purpose e.g. tempo, intervals, hills etc. For those sessions you might have a certain pace you want to achieve. All other runs are run at an 'easy' pace and that includes the LSR; I guess it depends what 'easy pace' means to us, one day 10:00 min miles might feel easy and the next day your 8:51 might feel easy to you. That is my understanding but I think it's time for others to offer their opinion as I may be talking out of my fatty bottom !
So, everyone, the question is - when you are going for a short run that does not have any particular purpose at what pace should we be running ?
Or should we be doing any runs that don't have a particular purpose? Doesn't an easy run on my programme still have a purpose or could I have just stayed in bed?
I reckon that the purpose of an easy run is to run easy ! Aren't they just runs that make up the weekly mileage ? The more I talk about this the more I reckon my fatty bottom is taking over my mind !
Hi all.
Not had time to read back through last week, so will do so tonight. Quick update from me
Edinburgh was class. loads of whiskies and even sampled a Port Ellen which is a whisky drinkers version of driving a ferrari. £35 for the 25ml of liquid though. It was my birthday so why not.
So I did go to the Edinburgh parkrun in the end. Jumped on the 41 bus from Princess street (cheers Nell) and made it to the start line with seconds to spare in a very very hungover state. Great course and a super fast out and back. I ran a 19:41 which is the first sub 20 i've done in a few months. So running is going strong and the marathon training seems to be paying dividends.
5 x 6 minute intervals in the snow and ice last night and the most bitterly cold temperatures I can remember in a long time. Feet were frozen, hands were frozen and the air was so cols that my eyeballs were gurting due to the air rushing over them. But you know what?? It was bloody good fun. And you know why? Its because we all love running. he he.
Carter - I have a question on slower pacing: is it possible that those slower runs use more energy? Or does it just feel like slowing down is more of an effort sometimes?
Erm erm....I'm not an expert !!!!
But, surely, you won't use more energy if you run slower ? That doesn't make sense to me, unless of course you've been out on the lash the night before and have a serious hangover. The only time I hear people complaining about running slow is that it doesn't feel natural and that it's easy to run faster. Well it might be but the cumulative effect of running faster during training means you get to the start line feeling ok but your legs may well struggle towards the end, hence bonking, the wall, at around 20 miles. Does it feel like slowing down is more of an effort ? Not in my experience. To me, this is psychological, and once you get used to running at the required LSR pace it becomes second nature.
# these are just my views and opinions. If you follow any pf these you do so at your own risk and carterusm will not be held responsible for any PB's achieved as a result of the comments made here
Hi folks, as Carter said, I noted a few comments on here about folks not getting selected for the new thread, but I'm happy to help anyone who would like it over on the new thread. Sense has good leg speed and good potential so should progress well, but its more about giving him the understanding to keep on progressing past April.
Hi Carl, Nice interval session there, obviously the cold got you moving
Hi Carter, Yes the high fat diet seems a strange one to me. I feel it may be of use for short term weight loass but cannot see how it can be a sustainable diet. I saw the snow on the news down your way. You certainly have it worse than us. We have been quite lucky over on the East coast so far.
Hi Sean, Glad you had a good time in Edinburgh and got the Parkrun in, good time as well. Where did you end up eating?
Hi PS, Sounds as though the cross training is helping you with the schedule...
In my plan, the easy run is ran at easy to moderate pace. It is ran after my Sunday LR and in-between the interval and MP/Tempo run. The pace of that run does fit in with my LR somewhat, although some of my LR's are ran at easy to moderate and some are run at the majority moderate. But then that is from a Hansons plan, others are no doubt different....
5 miles this morning at 7:31mm average and boy it was cold! First outing for the running tights this winter
Nell - I shared your skepticism before I started the diet, it goes against everything I have understood all my life. How can it be right to eat bacon, eggs and mushrooms drowned in butter every day and it not be bad for you ?? However, there are many FB groups with people who have been eating like this for a long time and they have had their doctors confirm they are in better health than they have ever been, there must be something in it but it's certainly not for everyone. It must be cold if the tights are out ! Have you done any off road stuff yet ?
We must have had 4/5 inches of snow where we are but I still went out last night in it. My headtorch is broken so I couldn't go off road. Running in the snow and slush was hard going but I felt ok and that I was running quite strongly, compared to how things have been recently. I also thought I was turning out a decent pace but when I got home and checked the stats it was still @ 10:45 pace for the 8 miles. The good thing was that my breathing seemed a lot better, I was still blowing occasionally but not as much. The legs still felt heavy but that could be down to running in the snow.
Hope everyone is keeping warm and safe
Hi Nell. I went to a restaurant called blackfriars in the end, just off the royal mile. Very simple produce led menu, but excellent food. I can honestly say I had the best steak in my life there, it was a treat.
5 miles around the park yesterday in the snow. struggled to get above 9:30 miles, but legs and quads got a great workout as you use different muscles in snow. Thats how a runner looks at it anyway, whereas everyone else just said 'Are you nuts going out running in this, just give it a rest today you're obsessed'? lolSean - my missus even mentioned mountain rescue as I walked out the door !
Hi TR welcome to the thread where the Kool Kidz hang out
Thanks very much for the offer of advice - I will pop over and bore you with questions about my inability to translate decent training into a decent marathon time!
Sean sounds like you had a great time in Edinburgh. Hope you had your steak with lots of blood. Running in the snow isn't a sign of being obsessed, it's a sign of dedication in my book!
Nell I'm hoping that all of this additional training is going to help but I'm also concerned that I'm going to burn out. I need to talk to my PT about it. I did intervals this morning and they were distinctly average as my legs are tired after hill sprints on Tuesday followed by 5 miles and the plyometric training yesterday. It feels like a lot. I'm not running tomorrow but have to do my strength work out then Saturday run and core workout. LSR Sunday. So a heavy programme in between working and looking after 4 children and moving to the States. I feel exhausted now just thinking about it!
Good effort in the snow Carter. Do you have any idea how many calories you're consuming each day on the new regime?
PS - in the last few days I have consumed 2300, 1989, 1935, 1459, 1204, 1922 and 1827 calories.
What days do you rest ? And by rest I mean take part in no form of physical activity including plyometrics, core workouts etc.
Rest day is Monday where I just do a bit of yoga but it's yoga for stress release/relaxation rather than any sort of cardio workout. Friday is my only other non-running day. That has the strength workout though which is lots of squats, lunges etc. After burning out at Chester, I'm really conscious I don't want this to happen again and I'm doing a lot more with these extra workouts than I did for that. Will see what my PT says - maybe as the plan goes on these might drop off a bit.
Do you feel like you're having enough calories so you're not feeling hungry or are you obsessing about food?
Nell- when I read about your treadmill sessions I tense up. I'd fly off the treadmill going that fast for so long
Carl- glad your girls had fun at the running. My mum tried to get me into running when I was little but I wasn't really into it. My little sister was though and she was a great runner. Now she is a chain smoker and doesn't do a whole lot of exercise but she's still one of these people who looks super fit and I reckon she could just show up at a parkrun and beat me!!!
Carter- your week of 45 miles planned sounds good. And sensible. I'd take the same approach. These MLRs starting to creep in really help in marathon training
PS- a few things regarding pacing... I agree with Carter, most runs which tell you to run 'easy' or 'slow' should be at LSR pace even if they're not a LSR... I've read a few sources which say when marathon training MOST of your training should be done at a pace slower than your marathon pace. As you will not have the potential to take your speed work seriously if your legs are already tired from the easy stuff. Also, boring as it is, the majority of marathon training is about time on the feet, and pace is secondary. (Obviously I am excluding any speed work) Plus, a good deal of easy, slow miles keeps you very fit without the risk of injury or fatigue. In my plan I have at least one 5 or 6 mile run a week which is done at about 10 min mile pace and actually I quite look forward to those ones where I don't have to be puffing my guts out trying to go fast!
Sean- glad you had a great time at Edinburgh. Sounds brilliant. I love Edinburgh parkrun and think it's genuinely one of the best organised and has a great atmosphere too. It's a really great bunch of people so I hope you were welcomed. What date did you run? Just asking as my mum and dad volunteer there when they're not running, you may have seen them
I am having a busy week. As well as my course I was working on Sunday and yesterday and they both ended up being out-the-house-12-hour days. So needless to say I was knackered after both of them. But I planned this week around work and stuff so Monday I had my cross training day, Tuesday 6.2 miles, work yesterday so no running, and today I'm going to do intervals at the gym. Not fancying doing it outside... I have uni today but have a gap between 1 and 4 where I manage to get a really good gym workout in and then turn up to the last lecture of the day a bit red and out of puff
Ali - sounds like it can be tough sometimes fitting it all in. How long is the uni course for ? Have you got your hotel booked for Manchester yet ?
PS - Do you feel you would benefit from 2 complete rest days ? I feel like I'm getting enough calories in me most days. I try and do the cooking at home so can cook what I want and as much as I want. This will include cooking some things in butter or cream or adding spices to certain foods and I have actually been enjoying the food. When my missus cooks it can be rather bland or she will cook something for ease and it can be something I don't really want. But rather than make an issue out of it I will just eat it. She doesn't understand the way I'm eating at the moment bless her so I just get on with it. I'm sure it's no bad thing anyway. Up until the last couple of days I haven't been obsessing about food, I have felt quite satiated and haven't once gone to the crisp/biscuit cupboard. However, I feel I'm getting to the stage where I need something 'naughty', not sure what it is yet but it's getting closer !
Loads to catch up on here at the moment. We must all be taking our running seriously this year !! Have only time for a quick post so if I do not come back to everyone will do so later.
Sean - running in the snow is great. I remember doing it a few years back here in London and really enjoyed it. Sounds like you had a blast in Edinburgh and that your unconventional approach to running continues to pay dividends. Sub 20mins for 5k after a night on tegh drink. Amazing. But that is how the first London marathon happened so maybe there is something in it.
TR - welcome to our thread. I always tend to follow the sub 3:30 threads but have not had the chance to drop in yet this week. Will do when I get 10 mins.
Washwood - The challenge of converting a decent HM time into a marathon PB is the holy grail of marathon running. The first marathon is always a tough one. Never done it before. Do not know what to expect. But how hard can it be. The answer is that it is bleedin' hard. The key is getting the training right and not thinking that 3:45 for a first attempt is a disaster. Your shorter distances suggest that you have a sub 3:45 in you. And you may be able to go closer to 3:30. But it is too early to be obsessing about race day pacing. The experienced marathoners on other threads and on RW Forum threads will advise that we should only really settle on race pacing in the week or two before the day itself. This allows us take accoiunt of how the training has actually gone, whether we have picked up any injuries etc And of course how well you sleep in the few nights before the race. A lot of people do not sleep much the night before and if you are not expecting this it can spell disaster before you have even started.
And the thing they tell all of us inexperienced marathoners is that slow and easy means slow and easy. Of course the brain tells us that we can run faster now. And of course we can. But running too fast in training can mean leaving the best running on the training routes and that come race day when you need that extra push on those last 6 - 8 challenging miles the body has nothing left to give.
I am still learning and have never run anything close to how I would like to so am not really equipped to advise what is the best thing to do. A sub 3:30 race time means that training paces are a bit quicker than a sub 3:45 race time.
Maybe you should look at some of the other threads to see what people's approach to this issue of speed is. I suspect that this will not be the last time taha we debate it.
Now having had a quick glance at the sub 3:30 RW7 thread, TR seems to be challenging some of the conventional thinking on speedwork / short runs etc. Must read this properly
More later .....