RW Forum Six – Sub 3.30

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  • Evening Malcs



    I agree with your thoughts on no. 1 but have a feeling that 15 miles at MP at this stage might be a little too much and might interfere with your training due to the recovery that you will need afterwards.



    I guess if it was earlier in your schedule it might not be as bad as it would be like doing a half marathon but slightly slower (and slightly longer), after a steady warm up.



    That type of exercise with a tennis/bouncy ball is supposed to be good for plantar fasciitis.



    I think you will be able to do 8m/m as you manage spit fire ok with 10 miles at 8 m/ms
  • Hi Angela. I was a little stiff and sore after Barcelona half marathon which I raced. This was then followed by a walk around Barcelona for about 4-5 hours. My legs ached a little the next day and I didnt feel comfortable doing any faster paced runs for a few days afterwards.



    Ive been fine today however and dont even feel like I ran 20 miles yesterday. I didnt stretch yesterday after the race but had a 5-10 minute walk back to my car. After I showered I put my compression tights and socks on and left my socks on over night and my legs have felt great all day.



    I didnt have my compression tights/socks in Barcelona and think I missed them
  • Hi carter..thankyou for popping on and for your kind words. Hows everything going with you? I was hoping to pop on to your thread on saturday but then the time disappeared.



    Im going for 7:45 min/mls. How about you?
  • Plan for week 12



    Monday; easy 4 miles



    Tuesday; rest



    Wednesday; steady/easy 10 miles + resistance training



    Thursday; steady/easy 8 miles



    Friday; Rest (well spend most of the day in the car driving)



    Saturday; Rest from running, but probably exploring france on foot.



    Sunday; 15 k race



    Total miles 31
  • Sarah - I ran the South Yorkshire HM yesterday (near Barnsley) and I achieved a shiny new PB by just under 8 minutes with a time of 1:38:04.

    For Manchester I'm thinking 8:30 if I have a good day which will bring me in around 3:45

  • Training Diary for Forum 6 sub 3:30 (VLM)



    Week 12 ( day 77) - Aim 4 miles easy.



    My legs felt surprisingly ok last night and today which has filled me with confidence. My run tonight felt very easy and I was tempted to run for longer and possibly quicker but I stuck to my plans (due to fear of over training and getting injured)



    Miles splits;

    1 12 - 9:13 min/ml

    2 9:03 min/mls

    3 8:57 min/mls

    4 8:57 min/mls



    I have a rest day tomorrow night (due to having a post work meeting to attend but hopefully I will be raring to go again by Wednesday)
  • Malcs - I think 15 @ MP is too much.  The most I do is 12 and a lot of people think that's too much.

    I usually do some chunks in long runs ie: 4 easy/ 4 MP / 4 easy/ 4 MP/ 2 easy but haven't done any of these this year.  On Sunday I did:  7 easy (8:52 avg), 7 steady (7:58 avg) 6 MP (7:17 avg).  And on Friday coming I have 3m warm up then 12@ MP.

    The chunks are good becuase they get you used to MP without taking too much out of you and also the run I did on Sunday was good for practicing MP on tired legs.  

    I don't think my MP will be 7:17 on the day but it felt comfortable on Saturday and I'm happy to go with it with the view of slowing it down a bit for the big day.

    What MP work (if any) have you done so far?  And how long till your marathon?

     

  • Congratulations Carter on getting a PB on quite a tough course...I ran it last year and really enjoyed it, but some of those hills are pretty steep. What did you think to the course?



    I think you should comfortably get 3:45 for manchester.....not to far away now at all. When do you start your taper - 3 or 4 weeks out?



    Are you doing sheffield half or is it too close to Manchester?
  • Evening Minni, at the moment a pace of 7:17 would, and does scare me to death, but fingers crossed it wont do in years to come with a bit more training.
  • Sarah I'd be surprised if you're not at that level in the Autumn!  I'd love to think I could run the whole marathon at that but I know I can't.

    I'm starting to get nervous, like everyone else.  You know:  have I done enough?  have I done anything? etc etc. lol!

  • The pre-race talk was of a change of route that took in some steep hills. I have to say that I didnt find the hills too bad at all really considering I was giving it everything I had. Dont forget I live in Sheffield so am used to running on 'real hills' image

    I have 2 more LSRs to run and get some in at MP and then the taper begins. I'm starting to feel tired now so looking forward to the taper ! 

    Sheffield HM is too close really. This is my first marathon so not sure how my body will react after the race so I think it's safest not to race for a while after Manchester. Today, however, I've just put my name down as a volunteer at Sheffield. Will you be running there ?

  • Thanks Sarah and Minni - that's me told then! image

    I'm just wondering how to determine what MP to go for. I'm not as quick as you Sarah. I know from Spitfire I can handle 10 @ 8mm just fine after doing 8:30-8:50 pace for the first 10. However, not sure what I'd feel like if I did the first 10 at 8mm too. 

    I just really want to avoid dying off in the latter stages and of course going off too fast is a sure fire way to make that happen.

    How do you decide what pace MP should be?

  • Malcs - I use a recent race to assess where I'm at, along with the training I've done.   This is the correct way to do it image but I have also in the past plucked a target out of thin air and sometimes been close, sometimes not.

    I've not run any PMs leading up to this marathon but I ran a HM just 5 seconds off my pb on a lot tougher course so this tells me I'm doing ok.  I know I've run plenty of long slow runs so put the two together and I feel I should be faster than last year.

    What races have you done?  If none, how are your faster paces in training?  How many long runs have you done?  How have you felt in the last few miles of these?

    If you held 8mm after a 10m warm up then I'd say that's not far off your marathon pace.  Remember on marathon day you will be tapered and you will be in marathon mode.  This makes a huge difference.

  • Thanks again Minni. I've only done one race - a 20 miler a few week's back (Spitfire). That's the one I mentioned earlier and yes I held 8mm fine after a 10m warm up (I didn't go all out - treated it like a training run). I just checked and the five mile average pacings went 8:54, 8:30, 8 and 7:45 for the last 5 miles - hmm, didn't realise it was that quick.

    Long runs - I've done 2x18 2x20 and 1x23. All progresive with at least the last 5 at 8-8:10mm.

    Good point about being tapered etc. I've never had a proper taper before. Only on my first ever marathon and I hit the wall on that one having not taken on any fuel (schoolboy error). All the others I've got injured 2-3 weeks out from overdoing it. So I have no idea what it's like to have properly prepared in those last few weeks image

  • Hi Sarah,

    Yes, I would aim for 5k pace for the shorter reps and 10k pace for the longer ones.

     

    Hi Malcs,

    Thanks for the advice, I will certainly give that a try. I guess you're probably right - it's most likely the stress of all those extra miles I've been putting in, I was a probably a bit premature to blame my shoes.  

     

  • Morning minni, thankyou for your kind words of encouragement, I would love to think I would be at that stage in the autumn but I doubt it.



    The mind is certainly playing tricks with us! All those long runs you have been putting in leaves me with no doubts that your ready, just over 4 weeks to go!!!!
  • Morning carter, I was feeling the same last week, I almost felt exhausted which is so unlike me, but after a Saturday of almost doing nothing, I was back to my normal self by Sunday. Think it must have been the two netball matches and not having a rest day for over 6 days. I was looking forward to my easy week this week but yesterday I was getting itchy feet to do more.



    Glad that you found the half on Sunday ok. Was it still two laps? Are you doing the South Yorkshire championships at all? I'm hoping to race the first one (once I've asked permission of Minni) but plod round the 2nd and 3rd. I have entered sheffield, mainly because I haven't run it before and it will probably be the last time we can finish in don valley. Its only 3 weeks after London though but hopefully it will be ok. I did a 25k race two weeks after London last year and I didnt feel too bad-it was a few weeks later when it hit me!
  • Hi Malcs, I agree with Minni, the taper will make a huge difference on marathon day. I think if you could do 8-7:45 min/mls after the 10 mile warm up I would aim for that pace at your marathon, which is similar to what I will be doing. You could always start more nearer the 8 m/m pace and speed up along the way if you feel up to it. Just remembering what we all said on the aciscs thread about sometimes feeling better on speeding up when our legs are tired rather than slowing down....I think taking it as a slight progressive run is the way forward (I.e start at 8m/m and finish at 7:45 min/mls or something similar)
  • Thanks Andy.
  • Morning Sarah - what a difference a day makes. Today, I'm feeling really good and keen to get out for a gentle trot at lunchtime. Like I keep getting told, rest days are also good training days. I am finding that the more running and races I am doing the quicker I seem to recover. Sunday was still 2 laps but I believe the course has changed slightly from previous years; we started and finished at the leisure centre. It's a shame that Don Valley is closing as I have been doing my speedwork sessions there.

    After Manchester I am moving into the world of ultras image I'm running Lake Coniston trail marathon in July, the Long Tour of Bradwell in Auguest (this looks a beast - 33 miles and 7000ft of ascent !) and Ladybower 50 in September

  • Sarah - many thanks. Are you racing this week or doing another LSR on Friday. I know you want to do a 22 the week after. That'll be about 3 weeks out then so last big one before taper, correct?

    Andy - oh, I don't know if I'm right, it could well be a combination of things. I just wanted to pass on what happened to me because it really helped. I also wanted to say that I had forgotten that I changed shoes this year from a neutral to one with a little more arch support. This was mainly to try and reduce pain in my calf and achilles that I'd been having for over a year. It did the trick but maybe it also helped with the sore feet too as the arch was better supported when fatigue set in. Hard to say for sure.

    Minni - meant to ask, what marathon are you training for? 

    Carter - I have enough trouble doing 26 miles but 33 up a cliff face sounds completely mental!

  • Malcs - I agree but I keep getting told that people of a certain age are more built for endurance than speed. Time will tell !

  • Malcs - London.  This will be my 8th London and my 12th marathon.  It took me 8 attempts to get under 3:30 with 3:28 and since I have run 3:25 and 3:20. 

    Id agree with Sarah on the speeding up making you feel better.  I've seen me struggle on feeling tired and heavy then as soon as I speed up I feel a lot better. I don't know it its adrenaline or if it just generally feels a lot more comfortable.  I also get a trapped nerve type pain in my groin from time to time and it hurts when I run slowly but again if I speed up it relieves it!

  • Minni - Aha! That's great that the two of you are doing the same race. Are you both at the same start area too?

    I had a ballot place the last two years. Absolutely loved it despite all the issues I had. I will probably never get another ballot place again - used all my luck up in one go image

    I think I experienced that strange 'speeding up to make it easier' phenomenon in a training run back in Feb. At the time I think I was going very slowly and my legs were like lead. Good to have these sort of things up the sleeve on race day.

    Another thing I've found helpful this year is engaging the glutes. I do find I need to focus a bit to get them going but once I quite literally get my arse in gear it's amazing the extra help this provides. 

    Carter - very best of luck. Look forward to hearing how you get on.

  • Yes Malcs, both on the Celeb start, of course! image

    What date is your marathon?

    Its going to be grim out there tonight.  I'm even contemplating the TM image

  • Hi Malcs,

    Thanks, that's interesting. I think it might be worth my paying a visit to a running shop just in case I might benefit from a different kind of shoes - I've used neutral/cushioned ones for the 6 years or so I've been running regularly without much problem up to now but it can't hurt to take a fresh look.

  • Andy - I guess you can only try. The problem is I had two lots of gait analysis that both said I need neutrals. One was at the end of last year just before I bought these ones with a bit more support. The only way I could find out if shoes were an issue was to try them and even then it took a week or so to be sure. 

    I bought a pair of Saucony Mirage 2's which were half price because the new version was coming out. Only cost 50 quid. I justified it by saying to myself that if they didn't correct the issue I had then I'd just use them for casual use. They have been great so I bought some more. I think you can still get them at a good price online.

    The reason I went for these is that they are more minimal shoes and have only a touch of support. They're designed for neutrals who mildly over pronate and need just a little bit of help. (no, I don't work for Sauconyimage)

    Minni - mine is the same day as VLM. I'm really glad too because it'll stop me from moping around in a sulk because I'm not running it image I used to watch the marathon on TV every year. Now I can't bear it as I just feel too jealous image

    I think you've got it rough up in the North today. The sun is out here and I have the heating off image

  • Evening Carter. I completley agree...a rest day is as good as a training day. Sam Murphy has written an article on rest days in the latest edition of RW.



    I use to work at Don Valley when I was a student (and pondsforge) and I agree its a huge shame that its going to get closed down. They could have marketed it so much more better



    I dont think im ready for ultra distance just yet...I was thinking about doing the round rotherham, but after finishing London last year it put me off!
  • Hi Malcs. Im setting of to France at 6am on friday morning so I will be spending most of the day travelling with no opportunity to do a long run. I will be racing the 9 miles though on sunday and then aiming for the 22 miles a week on friday, just over three weeks before London.



    Looking back, I did barcelona half, followed a week later by belvoir challenge (15 miles mainly off road), then I did a 20 and then an 18 with 8 miles @ MP and then last sunday (20 miles, half at MP) so even though its 4 weeks out this weekend I think dropping back to 9 miles for my long run isnt the end of the world and may do be a favour...I hope!
  • Hi Minni, I think when you run faster you do work your muscles differently as your stride changes and you are more lighter on your feet...Im sure this must wake some of the muscles up that have gone to sleep, so makes you feel better....well thats my theory on it!
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