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RW Forum Six – Sub 3.30
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Sarah, so many congratulations on the house offer acceptance. Now u can get your home gym sorted... Or is it a nursery?
Luckily we're going on holiday in just over a week, so not too long to wait.
I just set my garmin up for my 20 mile run with one of ur/Minni's fun workouts...
6mi easy 4mi marathon pace 4 mi easy 4mi marathon pace, 2 mi easy. I plan to set off at 10am as that's when the marathon starts. I have 5 gels- one is caffeine- looks sunny enough for a camelback and I'm putting chia seeds in my Sis electrolyte drink... Here's hoping I come back in one piece, energised and confident for the race
Where are you going on holiday?
Week 14 (day 97), aim; 15 miles slow (8:50+)
I think I actually found today harder than on Friday as I had to keep on holding myself back. I did the same route as on Friday and then when I got back I took Chris out on a 4 mile run as he has just started his training for the isle of Skye half which he wanted to do.
I enjoyed getting out today and found the run quite peaceful. There were a few walkers and people out but the river and town wasnt as busy as on Friday with rude people walking out infront of you and even blocking the full path even though they saw you running towards them.
It was nice to do the last 4 miles with Chris
Mile splits;
1. 8:29. 8. 8:50
2. 8:49. 9. 8:53
3. 8:38. 10. 8:55
4. 8:43. 11. 9:00
5. 8:45. 12. 8:53
6. 8:55. 13. 8:58
7. 8:55. 14.4. 8:57
The 20 went really well- I think chia seeds are the key. I've found shorter long runs a lot harder without chia...
I set easy pace as between 10:15 and 11:00 and marathon pace between 9:30 and 9:45. The second marathon pace section was harder but still manageable, and I think my pace came down a lot in the last mile as for the first 3 the garmin was constantly beeping at me to slow down. Anyway, this is how I ran:
Miles 1-6 10:29
Miles 7-10 9:32
Miles 11-14. 10:34
Miles 15-18 9:33
Miles 19-20. 10:42
The last 2 miles were really tough, but I think this was because my last mile is mainly uphill and being close to home it's easy to decide to give up and walk.
It was a beautiful day for a run, and I even saw somebody walking a ferret
I'm very interested in nutrition and am doing a course at the moment. The big problem with trying to get everything through diet is that with modern farming methods the nutritional value of food has gone down... People call me snobby, but I actually get all my fresh food from Abel and cole in the hope that it has a higher nutritional value... And the flavour is much better- u can even notice with something as simple as a potato... It tastes of potato rather than just starch... This also has the added benefit that I don't ever have to set foot in a supermarket and I'm more confident my beef comes from cows and not horses...
For our holiday we're going to see some family in the south of France- cant wait
Well done Angela
I've been looking at all the Paris people's results very inspiring. Legs feel like lead/jelly alternately.
I've been reading but not much time to post.
Clive - sorry I didn't mean you had a laid back approach to the marathon training. I meant you must have to have a more laid back approach to the schedule and not worry about changing sessions if the need be. I'm completely OCD about my schedule and hate changing days around, although sometimes its necessary.
My daughter will be 17 in August and I'm just looking into car insurance. I'm thinking about changing my car and because it has a 1.8 engine it would be expensive to insure for her but isn't actually worth anything. I've had it from practically new and its 10 years old but only has 55,000 on the clock! I've been taking her out driving on some of the private lanes around here to get her used to it. She got into second gear the other day - progress!!
Yes my 10k resulted in a pb yesterday - out the blue to be honest. I'm much better at endurance stuff than shorter distance and hate 10ks with a passion. I should have run one today, which would have been flat but family stuff got in the way so entered yesterday's last minute instead. It wasn't flat and had a big hill in mile two (Dotty - if you're lurking it was Dunbar)
So resisted the temptation to go off too fast (which I always do) and found I felt really strong towards the end. I've learnt this from you Sarah! So was very pleased with my time over a tougher course. I last ran it 2 years ago and was 4 minutes slower and went on to run a 3:28 marathon so I'm hoping this is looking good for two weeks time.
Sarah - almost there girl! Just keep your head for a big longer.
I completely agree, it was a lovely day for a run, I really enjoyed myself today. A ferret....I dont understand why people have these as pets....although someone could say the same about me and my budgies!
I did read something about food being less nutritious than it use to be, that being the reason why we have to eat more portions of fruit and veg now than we did several years ago. I worry about pesticides and things more than anything...I have about 10 portions of fruit and veg a day...I reckon i will be glowing or something in ten years time!
South of France sounds great. Im off next week aswell, but im just going to manchester, sheffield and then london so not as exotic as you. Will be nice for you to see and catch up with your family
I think its certainly looking good for two weeks time...I think the sub 3:15 is yours for the taking. A fabulous 10 k and course PB ...im glad that I helped...it does make a world of difference if you set of steady and controlled, and speed up later, rather than starting of stupidly fast. Sometimes times are probably not that much different but your experience of the race is...its far more enjoyable, encouraging and confidence boosting.....especially when you run past those that did set of like whippets (like those in a crop top)!
Monday; Rest or 3 miles easy + resistance training.
Tuesday; Rest
Wednesday; either a comfortable and controlled 5 mile race or 5 miles @ MP (both with a gentle warm up)
Thursday; Rest
Friday; 6 miles easy + resistance training
Saturday; Rest
Sunday; 8-10 miles easy with my running club
Total miles; 19 - 24. This week is going to depend on how my legs feel both tomorrow and wednesday and how far the club want to run. The running club is going from my parents on sunday so I will be leading the run with the aim of doing 8-10 miles.
Minni - top result in your 10K, well done!
Angela - sounds like you got a very good 20 in there. I always make sure my last 2 miles of a longer run are flat at the very least. You need a route change
Sarah - gosh, you have me worried now that I ran my 14 too quickly. That said, whatever happened something was going to worry me
After seeing Ady and Sarah do so well I'm feeling really nervous about mine now. Has it affected you too?
Congratulations on the house, you played the offer game extremely well there! We are still positive about our situation. Somethng will come up that's right for us I'm sure.
Your week looks very similar to what I have planned too. Best of luck. Don't be afraid to wear a face mask at work
That's a great time Minni my mate ran a similar time in Salford last week. My 10 k pb race is on Sunday near here but I think it would be madness to do it.
Re the 1800cc thing, we are in A similar position, I have an old 1800cc focus but it is a cracking car and I decided it would be simpler to pay any extra premium rather than trawl through the bottom end of the Corsa/Fiesta market for another car.
That said, the difference between the focus and mrs ps fiesta was a few pounds. The only real saving I found was if he had a 1200 cc Corsa or similar but I've had a Corsa and I never felt safe.
Hi again all
I hope you had productive weekends.
As you recommended (Minni), I took on a long slow run. I covered 21 miles in 3:07:37. This is an average of 8:56 per mile so my Virtual partner definitely beat me!
This has thrown up a lot of questions and doubts though. My pace was fairly even throughout, to be honest, it was a struggle at the end. If i was to be really honest, it was a struggle in general. It was probably the least fun i've had while running, I was going slowly and it hurt just as much.
I wanted to ask how much of an effect hills should have on a: average pace and b: the energy in your legs following them.
My journey had one very steep 200+ ft incline at about 10 miles and a couple of smaller ones in the remaining 10 miles. After this horrible hill, i was basically stuck at this slow pace whether i liked it or not and just had to carry on and on and on for a further hour and a half not feeling like I was ever going to get to 20 miles.
In the end 20 miles worked out to be pretty far from home, so after stopping for a few seconds, I quickly decided i may as well jog a mile of the distance home.
Even before the hill at half way though, I wasn't feeling like i could accelerate through the gears up to my marathon pace. So now i am completely unsure as to what my race stratagy should be.
Sad Face
Hi Sean,
As you may have noticed, I'm a lot slower than the other people on this thread, but in this particular case I think I might be able to help. I read somewhere that if you do a marathon in more than 4 hours (me) then its the equivalent of faster athletes doing an ultra race.... Basically you WILL use up your glycogen stores, so you have to be really sharp on carbo loading, and fuelling on the run. I used to find 20 milers complete hell, without knowing how I was going to get through the race afterwards, but looking at Ruth McKean's advise I think fuelling is the answer.
Remember the point of training is to promote adaptations in your body that will make you better for the race. Now you've been on your feet running for almost as long as your marathon will take you, the next time you run for that length of time, albeit faster, your body will be better at it.
I did my first 20 miler yesterday, and although not particularly following an eating plan, I made sure on Friday and Saturday I upped my carb intake, eating a lot of snacks - normally I'm not much of a snacker. I also went on the run prepareed, with energy gels, electrolyte drink with chia seeds in it and water (though only drinking to thirst). If you look back through Sarah's posts, you'll see she had a similar successful 20 miler having made sure she was fuelling properly the whole way around. I hadn't previously thought this could make a difference to how my legs felt,.. if they're tired, they're tired, what's food got to do with it? But at 17 miles I was still running strong, in my second section of marathon pace, and REALLY enjoying it.
If its not fuel or hydration, I think you could just be overtired, and a couple days off/easy days could help, but I rather suspect its the time on feet thats new to you and you weren't prepared for, so keep smiling
It was obviously a warm day on Saturday and i managed to catch the sun a bit, so hydration could have been a factor, but i had carb gel packs every 5 miles or so. I took them out onto my route at like 6:30 am so i could pick them up along the way. Along with a couple of lucozade sports for some hydration and extra energy. I think it must just be the time on my feet.
I think potentially I just dont have the 3:30 in me with such a slow start. The time on my feet heavily effects my pace due to deteriation of technique i.e. Stride length.
Thats right now anyway. I know i could do it. If i can run faster for a half i can scale it back to a marathon etc. But maybe this time I just havent got it in me to sustain that technique for that length of time.
I feel I can probably be happy with anything under 4hrs for a first marathon. So if i cant find the pace after the first few miles, 3:45 would be acceptable. Heck finishing is a grand achievement at the first time of asking.
As Angela rightly said, fuelling will make a difference too. If you consider that you have about 2000 cal of glycogen stores, and expend about 100 cal a mile then you will run out at 20 miles. Did you try any gels on this run? I usually take a couple on longer runs and certainly would on a run this far. For the marathon I carried a 250ml handheld bottle full of about 7 gels and sipped them from about 4 or 5 miles and threw it away around 20,21 miles . This seemed to keep me topped up for the end.
You should try these before the race too.
Remind me, what are your recent times for other races? Using a calculator can then predict a likely or realistic goal time. I like the one a mcmillanrunning.com but there are plenty out there on the Internet.
Hi Clive,
I think i had 4 in total carb gels. every 5 miles or so. I didnt feel like the 'hurt' was in my muscles, more my joints (which was pretty uncool) but my legs were never the same after the big hill.
My times recently are;
5k - 19:29
10k - 41:15
Half - 1:30:49
This all means that mcmillan reckons i'm some kind of 'athlete' and capable of;
3:10, 3:13, 3:11 respectively. (with the correct training etc)
It is eerily accurate up to that point tho. Each time is closely aligned up to the half distance as to what it projects and what i have achieved.
Hi Sean,
I would beware of McMillan, and marathons.... I hope that I've found the answer with fuelling and listening to these threads and doing the majority of my mileage really slow, however, I have done 2 marathons, and both ended up being more than 20 minutes slower than my shorter race times would predict, so don't rely on it completely. You'll feel much better on the day if you go for a goal that is achievable, than trying to break what the calculator says on your first marathon.
My recent half marathon time says I could do my marathon in 4:02... but I'm planning to pace a 4:15 to be safe. I'm hoping afterwards, with a lot more of these longer runs, that In october, I can finally go under 4 hours, which was my goal in my first!!!
we all learn the more we do...
I quite like this race calculator as it gives you a number of different predictions, almost proving the point that its much more down to the individual and how much tranining you do, and the right kind of training: http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/racepaces/rp
With those times sub3:30 is well within your talents/ability (my 5k time is the same but others slower and I ran 3:23 last year) but it may be you need some more general endurance. Certainly Minni is a big advocate of having lots of time on your feet banked before hand
Enjoy the marathon. Have some gold, silver, and bronze targets and see what happens!
Sarah,
Hmm I actually thought the ferret was pretty cute. I like rodents though. Always had Guinea Pigs growing up, and bought my mum a couple last year so she's not completely alone in the house. They're very easy to look after, and so cute! Wish I had a garden so I could get some of my own. And a couple of huskies to go running with
I'm about to go to the healthshop in search of more chia seeds (ran out yesterday) and vitamin D
have you got taper madness yet?
Malcs, unfortunately my estate is at the top of a hill either side, so I always have a short uphill section shortly before home....
perhaps I should move?
Sean - I'll throw my two penneth in too. First off do not panic! As the others have said with your pace you are easily capable of sub 3:30.
I think the reason you found it hard might be down to the fact you ran it slow. Sounds odd but you would have been running differently from how you run at threshold or MP and so using different muscles. At least that's what I've been told and it seems to make sense for me. From what you've said these are the first slow miles you've done and your body wasn't in any way prepared.
I've experienced the very same myself and when I've speeded up I've found it easier. Sarah has said she found the same thing too.
I wouldn't worry too much. Don't let one run throw you off. I would still aim for 8mm pace if I were in your position and see how you feel as you go. If you're not exerting yourself too much (so breathing lightly, able to hold a conversation) then I would have thought you would have a low risk of hitting the wall. I'd be interested to hear what Minni would recommend.
Btw. I haven't taken any fluids on in any of my long runs this year and I've felt fine. However, I have made sure that I've had plenty to drink the day before. This is only because it's been cold though. Once the temperature rises things will be different.
Angela - I think for the sake of your running you are just going to have to move house
Interesting, Thanks Clive and Malcs and Angela
All very encouraging, and appreciated
Dont worry Malcs. I did 10 on friday with 7 of the miles @ MP so I didnt want to push the 14.4 too hard. Im starting to feel nervous too. It felt like our marathon would never arrive, but now that paris has come on gone, reality has hit. I was reading the VLM booklet yesterday and started to get all emotional and scared when I read the description of the marathon....made me remember those last miles more.
I was so paranoid about my legs yesterday. I kept wondering why they felt so tired all day, i was convinced that I may have over trained and that I will blow all my chances of a sub 3:25. Today however im looking back thinking what a complete idiot I am...I ran 14.4 miles - of course my legs are going to feel tired...what was I thinking...just because I didnt run 20-22, 14 is still a bloody long way! Legs feel ok today so im happy. Cant decide whether to go to the gym on the way home or to have a 2 day rest...both are equally tempting!
I completley agree about the 10k this sunday...although im sure ive seen a scheule somewhere that recommends a 10k race the week before, but I wouldnt risk it....im worried enough about 5miles on wednesday!
We have a corsa and its not actually too bad, although it is quite new. I learnt to drive in an old corsa 15 years ago and that didnt feel the safest though!
Hi Sean,
Like every above, I echo, dont be diheartended. Ive found alot of my slower runs more difficult that the quicker runs and speed training sessions that I have done. I believe that because you are changing your natural stride it can sometimes be more difficult and muscles that you didnt know existed can hurt....however doing the runs slow, ive found I bounce back so much more quicker and can do another good quality run sooner. In addition to this I was on my feet for 3;11 mins for my 22 miles.....this is almost the time I will be on them on marathon day...the crowds, adrenaline, will power and finish line will carry me over the last 15-20 mins!
When I did my slow 22 I struggled from 15 miles, I didnt take on as much fuel and I ran very slow. Two weeks prior to this I ran 20 miles, with plenty of fuel, at a quicker pace and I felt great...I got to 20 miles and could have happily carried on.
Ady on the asics 26.2 thread had a gold, silver and bronze target.
Last year I initially wanted 3:30 then I missed a month of training so I changed it to sub 4 hours. I ended up with 3:47 and was over the moon that I managed to knock 13 mins of my target. Setting a lower target doesnt mean that is what you will achieve.
Forgot to say Sean, as Angela said time predictors become less acurate the further the distance (especially when using a short distance race time to predict with). I think I was predicted a 3:14 with my half marathon time but I dont think I could achieve that yet. I dont have much endurance and long runs in the legs I dont think...but its getting better
The madness striked yesterday and that was after a 14 mile run. I was worried that I had over trained as my legs felt tired yesterday and I couldnt understand why..."must be over training". Today ive looked back and thought what an idiot, of course your legs were tired, youve run 14 bloody mile, yes its not 20-22 but its still over a half marathon....the panic has now settled (probably helped by the fact that my legs feel great again). Now I cant decide what to do tonight ....run or not to run. Yesterday I thought I would give myself 2 days of to recover/rest (as the extra rest days didnt harm RRR) although today im wondering about running as my legs feel great and I want to do my resistance training. If I dont do resistance today then I probably wont be able to do it again until friday...lifes so hard!
Thinking rest during taper then it's probably the right thing to do- I just went for a 25 min bike ride, now my legs feel fresh after yesterday's 20 miler- it's nice to get home from work with it light enough to cycle, even if only for 25 minutes