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minimalist shoes for ultras
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hi folks - I really want to try a pair of minimalist shoes and like the idea of a pair for £25 quid. Which of the vivo shoes would you recommend for a first pair taking into account that I have to do up to 5 miles on the road before I get to the trails? Any advice at all would be welcomed.
Thanks
Also - in 'normal' running shoes I take a size bigger than my walking shoes - do I need to do the same in these shoes? I've got myself a black toe at the moment and the shoes I ran in were a whole size bigger
Sunluvva:
Size: probably yes, up a size for Neo Trail, but possible or possibly not for Breatho - most people find these about 1/2 size larger than Neo Trail. Taking myself as an example, in normal shoes I'm a 3.5-4 (yes, I have tiny feet). In most running shoes I'm a 4.5-5, depending - sometimes I've been up to 5.5 in search of enough room in the toe box, but then they're usually too long in the toes. To give some examples: Mizuno Waver Rider 12: Size 5 (and still too narrow toebox). Mizuno Wave Harrier 3: 5.5 (and STILL too narrow in the toe box, and too long). Saucony Triumph 5: size 4, but didn't work for other reasons (laces hurt my extensor tendons). Inov8 Trailroc 235: 4.5 and fit is great. In the VivoBarefoots, I've been wearing and liking the Neo and Neo Trail for some time. I wear the Neo in a 38 (5) and the Neo Trail in a 37 (4) - the Neo in a 37 is JUST too small for me (I have some I bought by mistake and I can wear them for up to about a five mile run). The pairs I ordered from Field & Trek arrived yesterday I ordered the Breatho in a 4 (37) and they're slightly long, but I wouldn't want to chance a 3 (36) as I suspect they'd be too small - particularly in summer when my feet might be a bit larger.
Neo Trail or Breatho: I think it's going to be personal choice. The soles of the Neo Trail and the Breatho are the same design. The Neo Trail is slightly heavier than the Breatho, and the hydrophobic upper is a bit stiff when you put them on, but this isn't something I notice once I'm moving. It's also billed as hydrophobic, so good if you go through a lot of wet grass, but it's not waterproof, so if you're going through a lot of wet mud etc. the water -will- get in. The Breatho is a lighter, softer mesh upper, designed to let water -out- easily; it's supposed to dry faster after e.g. running through a stream.
My first impression putting the Breathos on is I feel like I'm falling towards the inside of the shoe slightly with these, which I've never felt with the Neo or Neo Trail (I'd be very interested in what other people have found). I want to try wearing them running before making a final decision - hopefully my ankle will improve enough in the next couple of days to make that possible.
Hi Debra/Sunluvva, I ordered a pair of breatho's initially and got them yesterday and afterwards went on the site and ordered a pair of Neo trails too for comparison. Given the silly discounts it didn't seem as much of an extravagance as the missus made out
First impression of the breatho were excellent, love the build and feel. Ordered them in my normal size and they felt fine and maybe even a bit roomy. They do seem a little on the heavy side compared to the 110's and the tread is much more aggresive so as I said previoulsy, think they might not be as well suited to harder surfaces. Didn't really feel unbalanced Debra but have only worn them briefly in the house.
Not too many trails around my way so will only get a chance to test them fully at the weekend as my midweek runs are all city bound but will have plenty of NDW reccy runs over the next few months and will report back how they go.
Gee Bee 2: Have you considered no socks but ankle debris gaiters?
pursuedbyangrybees: I've always been told I overpronate when being videoed at running stores, but that doesn't fit the wear pattern on my shoes (wear at the front is central/outside, not inner side). And anti-pronation shoes make my knees hurt. So I stuck to neutral until I went minimalist. Added bonus: VB Neo and Neo Trail are wide enough for my feet - I've tried on several minimalist offerings from more mainstream running shoe manufacturers (New Balance, Brooks etc.) and they're all too narrow in the toe box, the arch or both. I tried on a pair of Five Fingers recently - "Speed" if I recall correctly, and surprisingly those were too narrow in the arch as well - the mounding of the sole stuck up into my arch and the inner part of my foot then spilled over the sied uncomfortably, so scratch those off the list of possible footwear. Inov8 at least have listened and used a wider last for their Trailrocs.
That's interesting Debra, I have a similar problem - totally flat footed on the ground and over pronate but I wear the outer side of my shoes out first. If I were to stand up in high heeled shoes the arch of my foot is so high it would be above the shoe itself yet out of a shoe I'm completely flat footed!.
hello peeps.brought my first pair off merrell barefoot running shoes they are awsome to run in .i am running longer,faster and have started introducing chi running aswell.has changed my whole view to running,but do all trail running dont like roads and have now entered my first ultra.oooh scarey....
Well done Helen. Trail running rules. Which ultra?
its the maggies challenge so cycle 30 then run 42.training seems to be taking up all my spare time.phew.....
Have a look at the Inov-8 range. I use the Baregrip 200's off road the stud pattern is a lot more agressive than other minimal trail shoes but still handle those small sections of tarmac. Used these on a 40 mile in the Brecon Beacons.
On the road I use the Bare X 180's. However, only been up to marathon distance in these.
Has anyone had any problems creating an account in Field & Trek? I want to order some of the Vivo shoes but it won't let me in
I use inov8 f-lite 195s for almost every race now. Great all round shoe. Not brilliant in really muddy conditions though so I switch to the x-talon 190.
Sunluvva: I had no problem. However, if you have PayPal, you can buy without bothering to create an account. Does that help?
.....or amazon account!
BTW for anyone interested in inov8's, Pete Bland Sports have a pretty decent sale on
http://www.peteblandsports.co.uk/
I've just bought a pair of Breathos at Field & Trek, set up a new account no problem. So tempted to try a pair of Ultras at that price - they sound fun...
inov8 bare x lite 135s were fine for 22miles so far...
cragchick: sorry to hear that the Vivos didn't work for you. If I tell you I need them that wide, particularly in the forefoot, does that explain why I keep saying most of the more conventional running shoes are too narrow??!!
You could also look at products like a huarache like Lunas (like in Born to Run) which are a bit thicker for trail running or longer distances or something like the kigo drive. I sell quite a few of them in my Barefoot Britain store to longer distance runners.
So does anyone think I am being a bit stupid in aiming to run my first ultra in Vibrams? I have over a year before I plan to do it but I have to admit that every now and then I have my doubts over whether it is sensible. I'm up to 30k in them at the moment and haven't had any problems running in them but it has crossed my mind that a little bit of cushioning might be an idea.
Dean, that depends on (a) you; (b) which ultra. I was happy in my VB Neo Trail for e.g. NDW50, but for Lakeland 50 decided I wanted just a bit more protection against sharp rocks so got myself a pair of Inov8 Trailroc 235.
No idea I'm afraid. I think that the best person to ask would be dean wood 2.
Well, I'm uncomfortable calling anyone stupid
but frankly - yes! I think you have to ask yourself 'why?' - don't do it through 'barefoot' religious belief!
You don't say what distance you are thinking of, but certainly at 40 miles and beyond it gets hard to maintain the level of concentration on where you are putting your feet that you would need to avoid injury.
I'm not saying that it can't be done, but you have enough against you in an Ultra without stacking the cards against yourself! ... and I have seen people finish Ultras in everything *but* VFFs (Sandals, NB Zeros, Boots etc.). This is nothing to do with running form; it's all to do with protection (from stones and broken toes). I'd consider something that has a little protection against penetrating objects and kicked tree roots (sandals? Vivos?).
(Declaration: I'm not quite a zero drop runner, though I've done some 'real' barefoot training; I always run sockless and never in anything over 4mm differential - but I do find a little compensation for deteriorating form useful as I tire).
I wouldn't wear shoes if I thought it was a challenge, I would wear the shoes that I thought would be best for me over that distance.
Exactly! I was just saying to Lirish during a long run on Monday that I was using Vibram 5 fingers for a couple of very short runs a week. (He laughed, but he uses poles so we reached an impass in piss taking there!).
Anyway, I have used them in training but I would never race in them. Over tough terrain in a long race I think I would be hours faster in shoes. Typically I run in zero or very low drop shoes, bu would never pull on the 5 fingers for a race.
I'm running in them because they are the first shoes I've worn that i haven't broken down in when I've been running. Normal shoes gave me all sorts of ITB problems and calf problems. And yes I did get a proper fit and my gait analysed and all that stuff. I'm not really thinking of any of my running in terms of 'race'. I'm never going to be competitive at running with anyone except myself. Beyond that, it's really ust survival and the challenge.
The event I'm looking at is http://ms2s.dk in 2014 so I have time to see if I'm being stupid. Its interesting that the only objection is lack of protection. I know the last set of VFFs I got were the waterproof ones which are significantly heftier than the others. Whether they are big enough to provide protection in rough terrain I have to see.
I guess that is because that is the only difference between the VFF and a zero drop shoe which loads of people run ultras in. So it is not very radical at all.