The Bible

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  • Some football fans care a lot if somebody doesn't follow their team. I know what you mean, their will always be a few who spoil the party. I'm CofE, down the road we have Plymouth bretheren meeting house. I am trying to be a Vicar in the CofE and they wouldn't even acknowledge me in the street. So I get it too

  • I'm more interested in what the Devil's Advocate has to say... I do find it incredible that cults based on books of fiction still have so many followers. Small minds that find it hard to think for themselves? Or sheep-like people the world needs in order to function?

  • Huh? Jesus made me redundant?! Cu#t! image

    And I won't be getting any chocolate.

     

    Anyway...

    I think there's more evidence for the paleocontact hypothesis, the so called Ancient astronauts. This hypothesis also explains away the bible and all other old world religions.

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  • TheVicar wrote (see)

    Some football fans care a lot if somebody doesn't follow their team. I know what you mean, their will always be a few who spoil the party. I'm CofE, down the road we have Plymouth bretheren meeting house. I am trying to be a Vicar in the CofE and they wouldn't even acknowledge me in the street. So I get it too

    Interesting. The mag I work on, which covers charities, has carried a lot of stories about the Plymouth Brethren, specifically the Exclusive Brethren, as they're known - one of its charitable branches has been refused charitable status by the Charity Commission on the pretty strong grounds that by being exclusive they don't bring public benefit. Some people see them as a cult. If it's the Exclusive lot, that's probably why they don't acknowledge you.

     

  • RicF wrote (see)

    What about Jehovas Witnesses? They wander about in a cloud of dogma unaware that their 'thing' was just dreamt up by an American in the 19th century.

    Like many cults there always seems to be an ulterior motive behind the founders. Usually money and sexual opportunities.

    This reminds me of when some JWs came to the door when I was a kid. My dad answered and said 'I AM Jehovah. How are we doing?' They left pretty sharpish.

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  • TheVicar wrote (see)

    Some football fans care a lot if somebody doesn't follow their team. I know what you mean, their will always be a few who spoil the party. I'm CofE, down the road we have Plymouth bretheren meeting house. I am trying to be a Vicar in the CofE and they wouldn't even acknowledge me in the street. So I get it too

    Now you see this is one of the things I find laughable. You're following a Christian line that was was only created so one man could get his end away. Look at all the other branches and you have similar though maybe not carnal divisions, right back to his original flock. I bet none of those first Christians would recognise Christianity today in any of it's forms. Whether you believe in Gods or not is personal, but the organisation of it is flawed.

  • Colin McLaughlin wrote (see)

    For example, what does Jesus do for a living? He doesn't do a single day's work in the entire gospels as far as I can see. Isn't that a bit strange? You don't see him out in the woodwork shed with Joseph assembling crucifixes.

     

    Ahh Colin... Jesus's living was leading his new fangled cult, he didn't have to do proper work because his followers would supply him with all he needed... much like preachers today. What work does a vicar do? Nothing, just takes money from people from sheople. Which isn't a critism, it's no different to politcal parties, celebrities or anyone who has a following and gives people something, anything to believe in. 

    What did Charles Manson do all day, apart from write songs and shag his minions wives? Perhaps Jesus did the same?

  • Oh dear out for an hour and the Atheists take over image

    Colin to keep it short.... Gospels are written by humans. But very soon, compared to other historical texts we 'believe' after the accounts happen. One instance, to keep it topical, when the tomb was found empty it was 2 women that found it. Now back in the day, women could not take on any authority. But the Bible states it was 2 women who found the empty tomb. It would have been absolutely unheard of and definitely not trusted by the greater population that a mere woman was to find the tomb. It has to be true there are so many little things in the NT, that if you know enough about the subject you can see them catch your eye. Even Athiest historians have said many, many parts of the NT would be taken as good evidence because of what is said. Plus you cannot say Jesus is a made up persona, it's fact that he existed.

    Also to say I am picking and choosing or saying I don't believe the whole thing means that its all a load of rubbish is laughable. I'm sitting here in the 21st century and hindsight plays a big part. So does the fact that we are all much better educated and you learn to approach anything in the Bible critically. I am trained during college for 3 years not to sit there and nod my head that I agree with Noah's ark but instead to approach it critically and try to get at what the author is trying to say. The Bible is written by people but influenced by God.

    Lardarse the CofE is part of the holy catholic Churchimage so not true

  • My opinion is that the Bible was written as a moral story on how to live your life, but I believe that it's a made up story...

    ...although I may be wrong.

  • TheVicar wrote (see) Plus you cannot say Jesus is a made up persona, it's fact that he existed.

    Hmmmm, very bold (completeley false) statement, there is zero evidence of any person or persons fitting the description, people in that area kept pretty good records of births, deaths and crucifictions, not a single one mentions jesus, It was a very popular name then and still is in that area, so of course people with that anme existed, but to claim jesus as descried in the bibe existed as FACT is utter nonsense, 

  • How come in the Bible there's no mention of the dinasours? They were around way before the Bible claims that the earth was created. Seas parting, turning water to wine, a virgin birth, jesus rising from the dead? I don't think so.

  • Many Roman Historians, Greek Historians who had nothing to gain or lose, said Jesus existed. They confirmed what he done. Why would they have done that?

    See Tacitus:Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired

    or Josephus:Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day

     

    To name not but a few, but quite a few. He was indeedy a real person. Sorry image

  • christianity does not acknowledge the dinosaurs as fact, 

  • You'll be telling us that Justin Beiber is real next.

  • TheVicar wrote (see)

    Plus you cannot say Jesus is a made up persona, it's fact that he existed.


    Well, I'd say he probably existed, on the balance of probabilities. But the existence of Jesus specifically is no more a fact than his walking on water. The historical texts you may be going to reach for (Josephus perhaps?) are not at all conclusive.

    As to his being the son of god, well, I can't see that. And I think if you lost all that bit Jesus actually becomes more remarkable and a better example. A rebellious socialist preaching the golden rule against a backdrop of an imperial occupying power and an overweaning and corrupted national religion. It's fantastic. It's much better than being the son of the god of Judaism, a messiah whose foretelling in the OT is retconned in the NT in the most tortuous of ways to fit Jesus.


    Mohammed now, he definitely existed. So that makes the Koran worth a bit more, doesn't it? He didn't even claim anything as outrageous as being the son of god, just the foremost of the prophets. Islam seems to have a great deal in its favour once you start the history based arguments for belief.

  • Rickster, Have you ever talked to a middle of the road Christian. I don't believe the world is 4000 and whatever years old. I'm a caver I see its millions of years old. Very few Christians nowadays believe that I'm afraid and yet again it's the minorities that are bought up

  • TheVicar wrote (see)

    Rickster, Have you ever talked to a middle of the road Christian. I don't believe the world is 4000 and whatever years old. I'm a caver I see its millions of years old. Very few Christians nowadays believe that I'm afraid and yet again it's the minorities that are bought up

    That's what the Bible claims, so it must be wrong.

  • i actually belive a man (probably called jesus) did exist, he was a preacher or speaker, but was he the son of god? no its preposterous, 

    Historians are basing their "he did exist" on what exactly? what evidence? there is NO written or documented evidence of his existence, all of it is hearsay, legend or religious text which was written centuries after he is aledged to have existed, 
    Considering you can go into the british museum and look at texts which describe farmers, teachers, trades people and other every day jobs, birth records, major historical events, elections, etc etc, but nobody thought to mention the son of GOD? nobody thought..."i better write this down" 


  • but you could say that about any ancient history?

     

  • TheVicar wrote (see)

    Rickster, Have you ever talked to a middle of the road Christian. I don't believe the world is 4000 and whatever years old. I'm a caver I see its millions of years old. Very few Christians nowadays believe that I'm afraid and yet again it's the minorities that are bought up

    see this is the bit i have an issue with, you cant pick and choose what bits are real, its either all gospel or not, 100 years ago people believed all of it was real, as science advances (whilst not being held back and destroyed by the cathloic church) and disproves things, and people become more educated and less ignorant toward evolution, geology, the physics and time line of the universe, people within the church are liek.. "well yeah, but THAT bits not true, but this bit is"

    If the bible is real, and it truly is the gospel, then its all real, and nobody today has the knowledge or "devine power" to decide what is and what isnt. 

  • Bible doesn't say anywhere its 4000 years old. It just doesn't mention dinosaurs. It also doesn't mention many things

  • NT I believe is true. OT is a story of how we got to the NT. Many stories represent the truth but by themselves are only an analogy. Until you study it, its difficult to comment in such a small space

  • TheVicar wrote (see)

    but you could say that about any ancient history?

     

    well, no.. because most ancient history has this stuff laying around called evidence, this is the difference between faith and science, science may have ideas with little to no evidence, but as the evidence is found those ideas are modified to fit the evidence, Science learns more about it and adjusts the history books accordingly, 
    Faith means that regardless of zero evidence, you take what is written in a book as fact, and even when evidence comes out to prove otherwise, you ignore that evidence. the bible is not updated to conform to what is now known to be 100% proven fact, such as the earths age, the universe, how the earth was made, evolution, etc, all of which have been proven to be undeniable facts, 
    Not all Christains do so but the church as a whole goes "lalalalalalanotlisteninglalala"

    I just dont get why the ones who dont do that, and actually do accept this such as those i listed as fact, why they would still have faith in the rest of it when none can be proven, none has a single shred of evidence to sugest it might even be slightly true, and nearly all of it preposterous and againts many laws of physics.


  • Anyway, happy easter everyone.

    If there is one most important thing to be taken from the bible, and which everyone would do well to remember, it's the golden rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Though you should probably check out the list of clarifications and special cases to it on wikipedia!)

    I hope I haven't been too offensive to anyone taking part or lurking, I know I can slip into it with my writing style and I used to spend a great deal of time and effort in these debates but it's not really worth it - nobodies mind ever gets changed on the internet.

     

    Have a cracking long weekend all!

  • If it weren't for JC I'd be working tomorrow and Monday; so God bless you big fella.

  • i just want to point out btw, i'm not anti religion, but i am anti church, i believe its an evil organisation, the cathloic church especially is in my opinion more evil than anything that has ever happened within human history, 

    The idea of faith imo is a good one, and if people ind comfort in it then thats great, but when people preach it as fact, i have an issue with that, 

    The history of religions and specificaly christianity is fascinating and ive studied it a lot, ive also read the bible and have a copy with more margin notes and post it's in it than a university textbook, i think its a very fascinating and important part of our history. I just dont believe in any of it much more than a book of moral guidelines and teachings (i cant say good ones because many of them are actually horrific, dangerous and quite evil teachings as well as the ones most quoted to be "christian values") 

     

    @agentginger.. i am working tomorrow and monday..and saturday and sunday image 

  • I agree. Me versus the world on here but its always good fun to have an argument with you heathensimage

    HAPPY EASTER AND GOD BLESS YOU ALL image

  • Marc.S wrote (see)

    @agentginger.. i am working tomorrow and monday..and saturday and sunday image 


    Oh dear Marc, you need to let a bit of Jesus into your life.

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