Teachers

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  • Muttley wrote (see)

    I believe Rickster is studying law. I hope he isn't planning to go into employment law when he qualifies.

    Please tell me you're joking

  • EKGO - I'm limited on time, so cannot give a full response. But here is just one example:

    He is removing the pay spine to bring in performance related pay. This would not be a problem, imo, if it were to be done properly. However, his policy is ridiculously flawed. Firstly, teachers pay is already essentially performance related; a headteacher has every right to hold a member of staff at a particular pay point if they feel they are not making progress (the reported "automatic progression" is untrue). These increases are nominal and for six years only. Then a teachers must make a written application, set and meet targets, to move up the final three stages. Main increases in pay come through taking on additional role with responsibilities that are rewarded with extra pay. You have to apply and interview for these roles, many of which are awarded on a temporary, year by year basis.

    Performance related pay can work well in the private sector. I have experienced it in both it's best and worst forms. However, schools do not have HR departments. Who is going to sort out the policies and procedures? Train managers to deliver the PRP reviews? Deal with conflict and grievances? Headteachers?
  • Muttley wrote (see)

    I believe Rickster is studying law. I hope he isn't planning to go into employment law when he qualifies.

    To answer your question, I intend to go in to criminal or personal injury law.

    Before that I spent 18 years in a factory, and not once did I ever go out on strike, nor did any of my colleagues. The union, which I wasn't a member of, had a good working relationship with the company. We were low paid, but knew that when times are tight we couldn't expect a big pay rise. They gave us a better deal when profits were increasing though.

    The teachers don't seem to be doing it for pay, but are blindly following their union's efforts to bring down the government, with the teachers being used as political pawns in the union's game of brinkmanship.

    This is similar to what Red Robbo did at Longbridge. Ultimately, the workers lost their jobs over Robbo's attempts to bring the government of the day down.

  • Headteachers? yes I do expect that they can administer a fairly straightforward issue such as PRP. If not appoint General managers who can, it's not rocket science.

  • As far as I can make out this is all anti Gove anti Goverment with little to do with real issues. Otherwise they would recognise that not all is well with the current schooling practices and that without change our children will fall behind the rest of the world.... But according to the Unions not while anyother government other than Labour are in power. Its all political ideology rather than the greater good of schools and the children, so nothing new there except this poor genration of children suffer while the politicians and unions play football with education, its a shame......image

  • The Egyptian Toe wrote (see)

    Again, the strike is not just about pay and pensions.

    Unfortunately, it is mainly about that, especially if you read/view the popular media.  In my small (and admittedly not very scientific!!) sample of 6, I think teachers are happy enough with their pay.  OK, when asked I expect they say they would like to be paid more, but so do most people (in my work I get surveyed every few months and I always tick the box that says "I am paid less than people who work in other companies doing the same job", when I know that isn't really the case).

    Last year, the Unions seemed to be moving slightly away from the pay argument, but this time around it seems to be the main issue again which is a shame.

    It is also a shame that I think a lot of teachers would truly love their jobs, if they would just be allowed to teach and manage the class/schools/kids how they see fit.  Gove's plans of trying to turn a crank handle and create a lot of kids who are Maths/English geniuses won't work in practice.  There is a move back to learning by rote which many teachers are up in arms about, and parents should be as well (in my opinion, of course image).

  • Big_G wrote (see)
    The Egyptian Toe wrote (see)
    Again, the strike is not just about pay and pensions.

    Unfortunately, it is mainly about that, especially if you read/view the popular media.  In my small (and admittedly not very scientific!!) sample of 6, I think teachers are happy enough with their pay.  OK, when asked I expect they say they would like to be paid more, but so do most people (in my work I get surveyed every few months and I always tick the box that says "I am paid less than people who work in other companies doing the same job", when I know that isn't really the case).

    Last year, the Unions seemed to be moving slightly away from the pay argument, but this time around it seems to be the main issue again which is a shame.

    It is also a shame that I think a lot of teachers would truly love their jobs, if they would just be allowed to teach and manage the class/schools/kids how they see fit.  Gove's plans of trying to turn a crank handle and create a lot of kids who are Maths/English geniuses won't work in practice.  There is a move back to learning by rote which many teachers are up in arms about, and parents should be as well (in my opinion, of course image).

    ...and there I was thinking that teachers were paid to teach maths and English skills. image

  • Rickster - yes they are, but should it be at the expense of everything else?  If you think so, then you and I disagree image  I know Maths and English are the most important, but there are other subjects which are getting canned or given lower priority.  For example, PE is taking a drastic reduction in priority.  Do you think that is a good thing, with the obesity issues this country faces?

    Also, the new proposed curriculum will not help create good mathematicians....it does not promote understanding.  Have you looked at the proposed curriculum?

     

  • I do have the impression that the union action is mainly about attacking the government.

     

    Their opposition the baccalaureate, for example. It works very well in other countries. It works well in some schools here.  But they insisted on trying to tell us it was farcical.  In the end, their actual argument seemed to come down to "gove is a twat". Ie we want to make the government look bad.

  • I think that whatever system is put in place for educating children in this country, it should be one that gives them the best education, not the one that's the easiest one to teach.

  • Rickster - have you actually read my posts?  Where did I say anything about choosing a system that is easiest to teach?

  • Big_G wrote (see)

    Rickster - have you actually read my posts?  Where did I say anything about choosing a system that is easiest to teach?

    I didn't say anything to the contrary. I wasn't commenting on your posts when I said that. I was merely stating the fact, generalising if you will, the fact that a system should be chosen that benefits the kids.

  • Big_G wrote (see)

    It is also a shame that I think a lot of teachers would truly love their jobs, if they would just be allowed to teach and manage the class/schools/kids how they see fit .


    Well there's the answer to all our problems if only we could all manage our work just as we see fit, I'm lost for words!! 

  • Ekgo - I feel I need to be quite specific image

    If a teacher knows their class and individual kids well are they not the best person to make decisions on how to teach the kids?  Or, would you rather a one size fits all approach not taking into account the individual strengths and weaknesses of each kid?

    Or are you saying that you don't trust the teachers to understand the kids in their class?

    And yes, in the main I manage my work and team as I see fit....that's my job afterall!

  • Rickster wrote (see)

    I think that whatever system is put in place for educating children in this country, it should be one that gives them the best education, not the one that's the easiest one to teach.

    And therein lies the politics. Gove wants to go back to teaching by rote, which to my mind and to the mind of many educationalists, is teaching without promoting understanding. Teaching kids how to understand, how to question, how to create, and without giving them a whiter than white understanding of this island's history, is far far better than where he's taking us.

  • Rickster wrote (see)
    Muttley wrote (see)
    I believe Rickster is studying law. I hope he isn't planning to go into employment law when he qualifies.

    To answer your question, I intend to go in to criminal or personal injury law.

    Before that I spent 18 years in a factory, and not once did I ever go out on strike, nor did any of my colleagues. The union, which I wasn't a member of, had a good working relationship with the company. We were low paid, but knew that when times are tight we couldn't expect a big pay rise. They gave us a better deal when profits were increasing though.

    The teachers don't seem to be doing it for pay, but are blindly following their union's efforts to bring down the government, with the teachers being used as political pawns in the union's game of brinkmanship.

    This is similar to what Red Robbo did at Longbridge. Ultimately, the workers lost their jobs over Robbo's attempts to bring the government of the day down.

    Ludicrous. They're striking about a new pay structure and the imposition of learning by rote. Where do you get the idea they want to bring down the government (much as many of us want to see the back of that bunch of vandals)? Perhaps a visit to the NUT website will help: http://www.teachers.org.uk/.

    It should be added that that so moderate as to be obsequious union the ALT is also exasperated with Gove's machinations, so this is not about militants at all.

  • Peter - I agree with you, for what it's worth.  I'm not a teacher, but what Gove is proposing is just wrong in my view.

  • Peter Collins wrote (see)

    It should be added that that so moderate as to be obsequious union the ALT is also exasperated with Gove's machinations.


    It does appear to be more about him than anything else, what particular terms and conditions issue is at the forefront?

  • I am a fan of Mr Gove, and agree with almost all of what he is proposing.

    However, I do support the right of teachers to strike if they want. It's their right to seek to promote their own best interests.

    having said that, in almost every situation that I can recall, teachers/doctors/police always oppose change.

     

  • An interesting take on the rote proposal of last year.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/i-agree-with-mr-gove--learning-by-rote-can-be-the-basis-of-a-good-education-8542334.html

    I think teacher are more apposed to this as it will seem boring and old fashioned but strangley it seems to work well for the countries we are trying to compete with.

     

  • Nick Windsor 4 wrote (see)
    Slowfoot Going Goofy wrote (see)
    Question for non teachers     Do you support teachers going out on strike ?


    Teachers have been on strike for 15 weeks out of 52 as long as I've been around, they get paid for this time and do little or nothing through these periods of idleness. 

    Why can't they get together to carry out general maintenance and painting of school premises, throw in the dramatically under-utilised Fire Brigade and we could wipe out half the School maintenance budget.

    No doubt this will get cynical or snide comments but why not? we need radical change.

    Snide comments? Oh, no. That actually sounds like an authentic George Osbourne policy. A ridiculous cost cutting suggestion which would increase unemployment.

     

  • the dude abides wrote (see)

    I am a fan of Mr Gove, and agree with almost all of what he is proposing.

    However, I do support the right of teachers to strike if they want. It's their right to seek to promote their own best interests. having said that, in almost every situation that I can recall, teachers/doctors/police always oppose change.  

    To be fair, Dude, I think a lot more people would go on strike if their employers bothered to consult them before making changes, and they had a supportive union willing to back them up image 

  • I think you should all spend a full week in the classroom of an ordinary school, {not schools like our highly educated leaders attended} study the proposed new curriculum, understand the issues facing the education system and our children, then come on here with your opinions backed up rather than exposing everyone to the load of utter drivel that has comprised the majority of this thread. I firmly believe all of the children deserve a good, challenging education.
  • Which is why we don't want lazy teachers to damage that education savi
  • There's a difference between concerned and lazy. I can't imagine any organisation wants a lazy employee but just because they exist does not mean everyone is lazy.
  • No one is forcing you to be a teacher
  • I am well aware of that but quitting when the going gets tough is neither professional nor being a good role model. However, I am actually more bothered about the education my children are receiving than my own status {or lack of}. I am sure there are plenty of people out there who rather than support and work together for improvement take the easy option of moving to an easier job or taking their children out of state education and paying for the very schools our polilticians attended. Neither of these options actually help to make a difference.
  • Nor will I be striking but I have joined with other teachers, educationalists and advisors in discussion surrounding the proposed new curriculum.
  • Rickster wrote (see)
    Muttley wrote (see)
    I believe Rickster is studying law. I hope he isn't planning to go into employment law when he qualifies.

    To answer your question, I intend to go in to criminal or personal injury law.

    Pleased to hear it. If you go in for personal injury you could quite possibly garner some cases from trade unions. And maybe you will then begin to understand what unions do in the workplace.

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