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P&D Autumn Marathon Training Thread
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Thanks15West. Yes I have a Garmin so I shall give it a go. I 'm running Buxton HM as a training run next Sunday so will have a go at putting some speed in the last 4 miles. Also doing Fleetwood HM iin August which will give an indication of realistic marathon target.
Target race is Mablethorpe marathon.
I was thinking about those halfs...don't think going to make Buxton though. I'm presently thinking Great Warford 10 in August and Warrington Half in September. Anyway, by doing these races you'll be able to determine how you are progressing and maybe revise your goal for Mablethorpe.
I'm still stalking this thread to see how you all get along with the P&D training over the summer for your autumn marathons. I'll be looking to use your experiences to inform my own training for next spring. I've made a short list of things I want to do better/differently next time including:
1) run more 20+ mile long runs. I think I could have done with greater endurance, so possibly 5 x 20+ runs, rather than the 3 that were in the upto55mpw plan. Perhaps there are more 20+ mile runs in the 70mpw plan, but I'm not sure if i would be ready to step up the mileage to 70mpw; I managed to pretty much avoid injury on the 55mpw plan, but had the feeling that I was close to it a few times.
2) run more hills. Apart from about 2 or 3 runs, all my training for my last marathon was on flat london pavements, so I was really unprepared for any hillage or undulation. I think I would have coped better with a little hill training, esp since my quads were the thing to tighten and slow me down in the race, although odd that this never happened in training. However, I've been doing strength training recently and found that I had to stop the squats when I got to 300, just out of boredom, so I don't know that my leg strength is all that bad. Still, more hills / strengthening exercises next time.
3) More early morning runs. This one is purely to keep Mrs AG sweet. She was incredibly supportive of my hobby when I was training, but I could tell that the MLRs during the week, meaning I was getting home an hour or two later than normal was starting to wear a bit thin towards the end. I think for the sake of my relationship I'd need to take the hit and get my ass out of bed earlier to fit more runs without eating into our time together.
4) Better fuelling/hydration planning. Couldn't do an awful lot about the weather, but I was doing all my runs of 90 mins or less without any water at all, and my long runs with a 500ml bottle and a few Clif shot bloks. So was a bit unprepared for warmer weather and the idea of sipping from the start to maintain hydration. Not sure how I'll replicate warmer weather when i'm training next January, but I need to think of a way to do that, perhaps the odd dreadmill run (on which I always sweat buckets) to practise.
5) Get quicker over shorter distances before next round of marathon training. Apart from the obvious race speed advantages, this means that each of my training paces will be marginally quicker, meaning I can either complete the same weekly mileage in less time, or do more mileage for the same given training time. Either way, it's a win.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts AG.....some really useful things to think about for those of use new to marathon training.
AG - good post that.
1) I added a few miles to my long runs for the 55-70 schedule, I think a good target to get 5x20+ mile long runs in.
2) 300 squats?! Wow. I also should do more hill training, pretty flat round my way though...unless I head out into the peaks. P&D mentions hill training good idea if you have a hilly marathon, but does not have any in the actual schedule.
3) With you on this one...I also am planning on more early morning runs this time round...for the sake of my relationship, and my job (did a quite a few at lunchtime). Problem is it might upset my dog...but I guess you can't keep everyone happy.
4) We're all different etc etc, but during my winter training I never took any water with me, and only took two gels for practice on a 24mi run. London was pretty warm (not as warm as MK though), and I just took on a little liquid every water stop (loads of them in london); and made sure I was well hydrated in the days leading up to it. Key is to take on small amounts often if you can.
5) That's a good plan...I was going to do the same until the temptation to do an autumn marathon became too much!
AG - that's an excellent post. I think that you could easily make a few of the LSR a bit longer thereby only adding 2-3 miles on those weeks. I did a few extra miles on the LSR but don't think I'd be ready to step up to the next plan either. Like you, the paces I run make that for a lots of hours of running. I suspect most people who were using the higher mileage plan when we were training for VLM were faster and therefore not doing that many more hours than us.
As for the hydration thing, that is quite difficult to do when the weather is cool, but according to my OH, I'm like a camel as I always drink loads. I can easily managed 1.5 litres on a 20 miler and still feel thirsty when I get in and I definitely don't start out dehydrated. I guess you just have to practice.
15W - at least the dog will get over it eventually and still love you especially if you have a doggy treat to hand ...your partner may not be quite so easy swayed.
AG - Nice post and I can empathise with them all.
Hills (click for link) are really important not just from a leg strength point of view but also from a mental and aerobic viewpoint. Your areobic system will recover quicker from peak stress positions the more it does, running up a hill means you can achieve this without thrashing about at less than 5k pace thus reducing certain injury risk, walk back to the start to let your hr recover and then go again. I live on the side of a mountain and used to drive to the flat to avoid the incline at the end as I didn't fancy it at the end of a mlr or lsr. I changed this for VLM and incorporated the hills into the sessions, hard at first but Inow skip up the hills at the end of the 20 without a second thought and beleive this has moved my mental threshold along significantly.
I dont drink or fuel on any run unless it is warm (above 13 degrees or so) except practice runs
Caterpillar girl - why have you chosen a slower target time than your pb? You seem to be in a good place re endurance or do you feel you have lost something since your last full?
Caterpillar Girl - at this stage of the game paces are arbitrary so you might want to consider running to effort (HR) rather than time.
http://www.athleticsweekly.com/coaching/how-hills-can-help/ Link didnt work
Men - I was wondering about that as I am fairly confident about my HR for HM and MP but just got out my monitor after 2 years non use and it"s dead as a dead thing! Time to spend some money.
My PB is actually 3:25 with a HM PB of 1:31 but that was back in 2007
I've been out for nearly 2 years with a non running shoulder injury so don't have any significant base. It's going to be a lot of trial and error with paces I think.
Just done all my stretches and core exercises following this mornings run
I mixed the 55-70 and the 70-85 ending up somewhere in the mid to high 70s for peak weeks and it worked OK. These schedules are not written in stone and can easily be adapted to people's needs. Also stuck in a lot more 20+ runs as I found even the higher mileage versions have not enough proper long runs in them.
AG: great post! Note to self: must do more core
Hi everyone
I have just got the P&D book so would like to join in here if I can.
I have only read through the first chapter quickly and had a look at the training plans and have chosen the 18 week 55 mile plan. I started running 'seriously' about last September and trained for the Manchester marathon but couldn't run as I had an ITB injury. I'm currently having physio and have managed to get up to 7 miles on my runs with only a bit of pain. Before my injury I was getting in about 45-50 miles per week so had a reasonable endurance race.
So, my first question is this: in the training plans there are recovery runs on the day before a long run but I dont understand why this is ?
Cheers
I'm going to have to find some hills now.
another vote here for adding in hills and more 20 milers
the lack of 20 mile+ runs has definitely cost me in the past so I'm looking at a minimum of 6 this time even if the last few miles have to be dragged out at a snail's pace
Howdo Carter - Haved just had to watch Sherriff Fatman on You tube as a consequence of you taking me back to my youf
I think the revovery runs are filler miles and also a little blood circulation to prepare for the following days event early on, Later on in the schedule you will be pleased to see them. Remember that besides the LSR, MLR and specific speed/LT/VO2 seesion the rest are to build up endurance and strength slowly. As it happens this is when I used to do my specific hill work with a relaxed but lumpy 5 mile loop.
Min of 5 x20m or 100m for 5 LSRs - Next marathon training I am going for 7 at least.
If you're planning on adapting some of the long runs in the P&D plans to have more 20+ milers than they prescribe, how do you plan to do this? Peak at 20 earlier? Make some of the 17/18 milers into 20? Presumbly you'd still want fallback weeks to help recovery, and MP weeks to help tune the race pace, and want to avoid back to back weeks of 20+ mile runs?
Wondered how the plan might look if extending the number of 20's.
AG - If you look at the upto 55 schedules tagging a couple of miles onto all your LSRs would give you 3x 22, 2 x20, 2 x 19 and 3 x18 with only one back to back 20. Clearly you could drop the 22s and leave them at 20 if you wish but I would probably do at least 1 x 22. Go into the spreadsheet and change the ID to correspond with a 2 mile longer LSR and it will do it for you. ie overtype id 49 with 56 and it does it automatically. You can have more than one item with the same ID
spreadsheet?
didnt I send you the spreasdsheet thingy? Where have you been?. Pm me with email address and I will forward it on to you. It is a work of nurdy art.
I think the lack of hill training in P&D is quite a big flaw to the plan to be honest - irrelevant of running a flat marathon or not. To do 55-70 miles on flat roads continually is not great, you are using same muscles. You get stronger from hills and for god's sake, it doesn't stop the Kenyans smashing the flat marathons does it?
rockhopper: that's good advice! I did that with my HRM too when it gave silly readings.
I like to be told what I have to do 
.
Dunno about hills for flat marathons ... I used to live and train in a hilly area but found flat marathons a real challenge. Only changing most of my training to flat tarmac roads did improve my times... guess everyone is different.
I think I will do P&D for my HM in October and reduce mileage accordingly. I have their roadrunning for serious runners (or whatever it's called) book but the plans in there are very basic and you pretty much have to work out your own schedule. Too much hard work
Looking at the 55-70mile/18 week there are already 4x20+ milers in weeks 7, 8, 11 and 15
Think I will proably increase week 5's long run from 18 with 10 @mp to 20 with 10 @mp and week 12's from 18 to 20
This gets me the 6 20 milers I'm after with only 4 miles added overall
Hello..welcome Carter.
9 or 10 mile run at lunchtime. Really enjoying my running at the moment, garmin/watch free, not obsessing about paces and distances, just running at a comfortably fast pace...no idea what actual pace is though! Even found a few hills to run up, and finished with a few strides...
So there.
Going to be endless rain here in Manchester tomorrow....and it's my birthday too!
Happ Birthday for tomorrow 15W!
Chick - I have to agree regarding figuring out your own plan. I'm currently doing that for a HM, but I won't ever use that book for the marathon I'd just use the ready made plans in advanced marathoning.
15W Happy Birthday to you.....
I can't be doing with formulating plans it hurts my head, and I also quite like being told what to do!
Agentginger fab post on previous page, especially for newbies like myself to this training plan. Re: Men's spreadsheet get it you will love it
Happy birthday 15W!
I've been keeping up with reading this thread but haven't had time to post anything properly thought out (and still haven't right now), but a few points that occured to me about recent discussions were:
- I did the 18w 55-70 programme and there are more long runs in it so I didn't feel the programme was 'light' on them, though I did add a couple of miles on one or two of them, so did 2x22, a 21 and a couple of 20s.
- but in any case, I believe the thing that really made a difference to my endurance levels were the mid-week 15-mile MLRs. Seriously, I could run all day and I think they are 90% responsible for that.
- and finally, it seems P&D are working on a new edition of Road Racing for Serious Runners that is going to be more like Advanced Marathoning with actual schedules! Hurrah!
Yeah another book to bury.
My start date is approaching - 27th May. The PD spreadsheet is going to be worth it's weight in gold in motivation, I'm quite excited as I've never managed to fully follow a plan before, so I hoping for great things.
Just enough time after Eyam HM tomorrow to recover before week 1 (I hope!).
A week ago I did a really slow 6 miler, 10 minute miles (well HR under 150 as a measure up and down hills), which I've never managed to run that slow before and I realised the benefits - My P&D long run pace is in the spreadsheet at 9:36 aiming at 8:00 pace for the marathon.