P&D Autumn Marathon Training Thread

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  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    P&D does have some intervals etc., but not until about 10 weeks before the race. The most important sessions for a marathon are the long runs and tempo runs, intervals are the icing on the cake. If following one of the 18wk schedules for VLM this will start mid December...so up until then good idea to get a good base, which sounds like what you are doing. P&D is a fairly tough schedule, although there are certainly tougher schedules out there. Depending on how much weekly mileage you can tolerate there are different schedules...maybe for you the 55 to 70 schedule would be a good fit? It is important to run the recovery runs nice and slow, or even replace with cross training if legs hurting a lot etc. Also, a lot of people (including me) tweak the schedules a bit so fits better into their lives etc.

    Anyway, the book is well worth getting..P&D Advanced Marathoning...and there will be a thread for P&D spring marathons...

  • Hi DT, I did P&D 55-70 for my first and (so far) only marathon. I don't know if I am bullet proof but I did find I had to take things like stretching and recovery WAY more seriously than I had done before. Perhaps not a bad thing.

    Debutant - I've just entered Gosport half too, though not sure if I'm in PB shape after 3 weeks out with a sprained ankle.

    Nose - I seem to remember in a previous incarnation you claimed to speak for a whole country?

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Thanks both, had a look at the plan, seems a bit tasty in parts but doable with some tweaking and flexibility. Theres a lot more running in the days leading up to the marathon than i anticipated.

    Lit- Yes, i think my niggles have all come as I have not had any respect for my body and what I am doing to it. It was never a plan to start running 50 miles a week it just seemed to happen from occassional running. I do now have a full stretch routine that I try and do twice a day regardless of whether I run. Hopefully that will stand me in better stead.

    I notice the plan does not give paces or say hat the target marathon time is from it?? I asume I just use all my normal paces from mcmillan? Will order a copy of the book I think. I was looking at the advanced plan that came with the vlm mag and that now looks easy!

  • Paces are explained in the book. Target time depends on how good you are at running. image

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Ha, thanks for stating the obvious there Litimage. Surely though the plan must be aimed at those looking for say sub 3.30?? I cant imagine a 5hr marathoner following that. Book now ordered.

  • Not necessarily. Everyone's working at his/her own pace. We had people with targets ranging from 2:50-4:30 last year, I think.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Fair enough. The only thing I couldnt see from my cursory look through the schedule was the standard 'run a half marathon' 6 sundays out, or any other race. Maybe i just missed it.

  • DT19 me and my OH have been following P&D, we are both very injury prone due to what my phizz calls 'franky, shit biomechanics'! However neither of us have had any injuries that stopped us running during the plan. It's my OH's 7th (?) marathon and the first time he has managed to complete a training schedule. We are doing the 'up to 55 miles a week' prior to that I would run 35+miles a week OH a bit less. 

    I used the McMillan paces, actually just done a set of 1600m repeats at 5k pace and they came out bang on. 6.10, 6.10, 6.09. Usually I'm all over the place pace-wise so after 18weeks maybe my body has learnt something!

  • The training paces are all explained in the book. The McMillan calculator comes in handy to find some of the appropriate paces. For example, I'm aiming for 2:54 for the VMLM. my training paces are:

    MP 6:38

    Long run 7:18 to 7:58

    Lactate Threshold 6:10 to 6:19

    General Aerobic 7:38 to 8:17

    VO2 max 5:45

    Recovery 8:12 to 8:19

  • RamjetRamjet ✭✭✭

    The schedule normally have 3 tune up races in the last 7 weeks, These are supposed to be 8 - 15K but I imagine some people do a Half instead or squeeze a Half somewhere else in the schedule.

    For my next P&D I will race a Half with a 3 mile warm up as my "16 with 12 @ MP" session.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Thanks for your input. Will have a look at the up to 55 miles plan also as need to make sure I make the start line! I was reading an article on the principle of it and the intervals seem to be geared around 5k pace and between 2-6 mins which seems quite pleasant compared to some other sessions!

    I think it would be far easier to hit 12 miles at marathon pace if in a race situation, the only risk being you forget thats the plan and race it!

  • Lit...  I'm surprised people notice such things...  I'm impressed you remember that this is my 3rd name on here.  I'm obviously crap at picking names for these sorts of things.

    Run Wales...  I don't know why I picked it.... but I soon realised that there's a commercial organisation by that name and eventually decided to dump it.   Then Runny Knows - It was supposed to be a pun but I've been unhappy with it for a while... because whenever I said anything sort of serious, it looked arrogant.  So... Nose Nowt  (or Nose Snout?) is at least self-deprecating which suits me better.  Still a crap name though

  • ShazmoShazmo ✭✭✭
    Aaah, I remeber Run Wales! Right Runny/Nose/Welsh person....no more name changes, or elseimage (Although I did fear I would have to change my name when another Shaz infiltrated the forum :-/ )



    DT19, I echo what the others have said and also add that 'slower' runners can benefit from P&D.
  • RamjetRamjet ✭✭✭

    Nose it could be that you are over-thinking this name tag thing!

    Having said that I have just changed mine to make life a little harder for stalkers.

  • For Baxters I followed the up to 55 plan with the long runs from the up to 70, I got up to 64 miles in a week, I also turned a few of the LR into 20's, max out at 5, with regards to racing I did two HMs, the first 6 weeks out, which I raced and the second 4 weeks out, which I turned into an 18 with 13@MP

    For my spring marathon I think I'm going to follow the 55 -70 plan.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I am also thinking of the 55 to 70 plan, except maybe add more miles to the long and mid length runs...probably take from the 70 to 85 plan. Going to try harder to hit the paces in the speedier sessions this time, and have more recovery.

  • SGB1953SGB1953 ✭✭✭

    15 - re your comment below, I think that if I were at your level, and I enjoyed it, two marathons a year seems reasonable.   My current plan is to do London, then hope to do a marathon as part of the 2014 Kent Grand Prix. If that doesn't work then I may consider York.  Thanks for the tip about it selling out quickly!

    As to running without a garmin, well!!  

    SGB - well , never say never. I am still probably not autumn marathoning, but I have relatives in York so if was going to do one I may do that...but I will need to decide on that one in january as it will probably sell out straight away again. I am doing London again as this year will probably have family with me....last year I went down on my own. Plus, with GFA entry is easy, and for the price london is pretty blooming awesome in my opnion.

    Enjoying my running at the moment despite the stupid weather. Running garmim free, slowly building up the mileage (at about 40mi/wk at moment). It's nice not to have to worry about pace etc, but just run as fast and far as I feel like running. The weather is killing my trainers though.

     

  • 15W - have you got a target time in mind for VLM? You seem to do very well compared to others who train 100+ miles a week. Why run more miles when you can run less and get similar results?! image

    I looked up Fiona J's entry in the Guiness Book of Records - was passing the stand in Asda! I still think running 2 marathons in 8 days is more impressive and getting a PB in the second one! Hope you are back running again soon Fiona.

    As for P&D, I think the main thing is to believe that the benefits are worth the effort you'll be putting in. From someone at the slower end of the spectrum I'm sure I could have followed an 'easier' plan and achieved a sub 4:30 marathon time. I think I'm right in saying that the P&D book doesn't even give paces for anything longer than 4 hours so that should probably tell you something about the people it's really aimed at. Having said that it does give some really good explanations for why you do each type of training run which is of benefit to all marathon runners regardless of their speed!

  • RamjetRamjet ✭✭✭

    The cough is beaten and the running is back!

    Here is a great workout I invented yesterday to blow off the cobwebs at lunchtime.

    1 mile @ LSR pace

    1 mile @ MP

    1 mile @ HMP

    1 mile @ 5K pace

    1 mile @ recovery pace

    P&D would probably not approve as it is a mixture of different workouts but it was fun! That is the great thing about doing a lower intensity schedule - you can mix things up a bit.

  • ShazmoShazmo ✭✭✭
    I think you've passed your bugs on to me RamJet image



    I like the sound of that little workout - will give it a go when my cold has disappeared. It's most frustrating, as I feel ready for a little run but I can't breath!
  • RamjetRamjet ✭✭✭

    Boo Hoo Shazmo image I hope you are following your own advice to me and not doing anything strenuous.

    Tomorrow (when the storm passes) I am going to try the weekend version of my workout.

    4 miles @ LSR pace

    3 miles @ MP

    2 miles @ HMP

    1 mile @ 10K pace

    2 miles @ recovery pace

    This is basically a Hal Higdon tempo run with knobs on.

    Is it good for you? Who knows.

  • This one's "fun";

    Warm up, then 25 laps (10k) alternating each lap between marathon race pace and 5k race pace. Cool down.

    Devised by Frank Horwill.

  • RamjetRamjet ✭✭✭

    It sure feels strange to be talking about training on a training forum image

    That workout sounds a bit evil Andrews. Have you tried it?

    I did my progression workout tonight. It was cool. The only thing was that my 10K pace mile ended on a steep hill. Pounding up that hill certainly woke my legs up!

    This was my first long run since the marathon and it felt great. I officially declare myself recovered!

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Hi all, 

    They sound like some pretty meaty training runs above! Not sure I fancy that effort!!

    Quick question if I can? I am working my way through my newly delivered book and just eyeing up the schedules. I think I am going to take a 55 mile SCH as I know I can fit that in around life and my body can take the miles. I have two questions though

    1. I sort of feel that almost all of cycle one would be a step backwards in terms of mile and effort. I almost feel liker diving into cycle two. How important is it to follow the first cycle fully? 

    2. The 18 week schedule ends perfectly for the vlm. Is it feasible to say start it two weeks early to give some slack for injury,weather, and stag weekends?

    Thanks

  • ShazmoShazmo ✭✭✭
    I like the sound of both those work outs - anything to mix it up a bit occasionally. I'm itching to run again post-Dublin but still have this blummin cold.



    DT19 - I've only followed the P+D plan once so I'm no expert. I would say though that the authors know what they're talking about and the book is aimed at serious runners (of varying speeds - don't have to be fast to be seriousimage ), so I reckon they've included cycle one for good reason. Saying that, I didn't follow cycle one religiously as it fell over Xmas and the same will happen this year for me.

    Some people have added an extra week in the programme to allow for holidays etc. I would be wary of adding too much on though, or else you'll have been training for 20 weeks. Just a thought.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Thanks shazmo. I am just trying to balance in the fact that in December I have a xc, tweo 10ks, two Xmas parties minimum plus the core Xmas period. I can work around Xmas as off work over two weeks and only really Xmas day I literally cannot train. So perhaps, given that I should just appreciate the first cycle. 

  • Hey DT19... I've done P&D once only... but I think the majority of people on here have adapted the programme to a greater or lesser extent. I certainly did.

    In my opinion... if you think the first cycle is a step back... then adapt it. But you should definitely still do it.  Just as Shazmo says... it's there for a reason... and mainly it's to build the base endurance.  So if I was you, I'd just add a few miles to the mileages suggested in cycle one.... good for the endurance, and not a 'step back'

    As for starting a couple of weeks early.... why not?  I think a lot of people do that.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I'm thinking of starting a week early to take into account the inevitable lull over christmas.

    The first weeks of the schedule is all about building up endurance. The hard work really starts in January.

  • Inevitable lull over Christmas??? Lightweights. image

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I actually might be at my training camp in Lanzarote over christmas again. Running the coastal routes in the morning, mini disco in the evening.

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