P&D Autumn Marathon Training Thread



  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    Sorry Lisa, I've heard you're only a proper runner when you've had a poo in the bushes.

  • Bugger must try harder then Lit!

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    Oh, re. gels, someone on the last P&D thread recommended I try one before a shorter run the first time, just to make sure there weren't going to be any pooing-in-the-bushes issues.

  • Well done on the long runs folks.  Lisa - I'd definitely start practising with gels now.  There's so much choice and they're all really varied.  Some you need to take water with and some you don't; some have less carbs; some have caffeine etc.  I really didn't need to take a gel on my 16 miler yesterday but I'm trying out different gels to see what works.  Plus I avoided what andrews put himself through!

    Personally I like the SIS go isotonic gels.  Don't need water with them and I really like the consistency.  I've also got some zipvit gels with caffeine to take at around the 20mile mark of the marathon.  There's loads of time yet to trial things out, but make sure you go into the marathon knowing exactly what fuel/gel/food/drink you're going to take at what miles and stick to it.  Well, that's the advice I've been given anyway.  Well done on the 18 miler and the extra squats image

    Enjoy your daughter's party 15W.

    I'm off for a very relaxing and indulgent treat at a woodland spa, can't wait image

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    +1 for the SIS Go gels.

    Lisa, agree with Lit - anyone can pee in a bush...but only serious runners poop in bushes. Actually - if you are a true elite you just poop in your shorts and carry on. Well done on your 18miles BTW.

    Daughter's b'day party passed without incident. We had the luxury of having hardly anything to do with it as all organised by the place we ate.

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    (I have never pooed in a bush)

  • Lisa - I agree with Tiny Runner 85 and 15West that it's very important to test gels or whatever you use on long runs.  I think it's brilliant for you to have run 18 miles with no food; it's a good test of running mainly on low carbohydrate.  However, very few can run a marathon at their best time without eating some food in the race.  I use shotbloks with caffeine, taking them with water every 6 miles or so, and tend to use them only on training runs longer than a half-marathon.  I'd use them more but I'm trying to lose a bit of weight.

    Everyone's different, of course, and you may the exception who doesn't need any food in a marathon, but I do agree you should start trying them now!

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I normally test out a couple of gels in one or two 20+mi runs. In the actual marathon I usually take 5 or 6. Not only is it good to practice how your stomach can take them, but also how you're going to carry them ( I have a SIS gel belt); and also opening and consuming while running as that takes a bit of practice.

    If you can't stomach gels then you could try jelly babies or something.

  • Nose NowtNose Nowt ✭✭✭

    Well, that's week 1 of 12 completed.  Modified slightly, given the HM I did last Sunday, but I'm happy with what I did.

    Does anyone think week one is a bit "fast".  I'd have expected only slow miles for the first couple of weeks.

  • carterusmcarterusm ✭✭✭

    Well done everyone for sticking at it, looks like a cooler few days ahead.

    Saturday morning I ran the Mickledon Straddle route in the Peak district. It was 14.6 miles of hard fell running so I've counted this as my long run for the weekend as it took 2:50 to complete. I also went out with the missus on Saturday afternoon on her C25K venture followed by a recovery run of 3 miles yesterday up in the Peaks with the mutt.

    Has anyone got any races planned in the near future ? 

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    great long run, carter image  too hot for racing at the mo ... maybe a 10k on August 18

    Runny: that's the trouble with P&D - there aren't many slow miles about image. There are recovery weeks but even some of those contain intervals image

    Lisa: another here to say try some gels in training. They are a bugger to open whilst running and even more of a bugger to eat/drink. I usually end up squirting half of it up my nose, down my front, etc.  2 years ago I switched from SIS to High5 Iso. They are more liquid and easier to handle. I've bought a small belt with two 150ml bottles into which I decant the gels for race day. No faffing about, no squirting, no dropping. That was a good bit of gear to purchase image

  • ClagClag ✭✭✭

    Morning folks,

    Hope you don't mind me gate crashing the thread. image I should've been here earlier, but with trying to fit in work and miles I didn't have the time to commit. However, I'm now on hols for the next few weeks so have more time to focus on the important things in life.

    A wee bit about me ... I'm currently training for my 7th marathon and this is my first time following P & D. I did look at the 18/55 plan last time around but it looked a bit scary. This time, I left myself with no choice. I didn't recover well after Paris in April, and finally went to the doctor after 7 weeks of painful legs and very laboured running, to discover that I was verging on anaemic. Since starting a course of iron tablets I've found that my running has improved greatly and I'm no longer finding a 10 minute mile a struggle.

    So, I'm now on the 12/55 plan as I was running out of weeks to do what I've done previously, which would have been 4 or 5 runs a week building up to 5 x 20 (maybe a 22/23) mile long runs.

    I've managed 6 weeks of the plan so far, and have to say I'm really quite enjoying the variety. I am of course challenged by the thought of some of the harder work sessions, but feel good when I've done them. I'm doing most of my training alone as it doesn't fit in well with club sessions. My thinking is also that the marathon I'm doing will be the polar opposite of Paris - the Highland Perthshire Marathon - in terms of numbers, so it's good to be comfortable running alone.

    Current queries include: warm up races - the only race that I can find that fits in around hols is on a Sunday. To fit this in, I'd need to either rejig the schedule completely or do 20 miles the day before which does not bode well. I see someone earlier suggested parkrun with an extended warm up or a tough VO2 session. I might just go for that option as I can't really see the benefit of fitting in races when I'm tired. Nor do I want to mess up the pattern of long runs. What is the idea behind the races? Is it to test out your pace or to experience the race atmosphere etc?

    Fuelling is another concern & something I've yet to master. I used to use SiS Go Gel, but since being very ill at Lochaber I've struggled with them. I tried to use them in Paris but only managed 3 and felt I could've used more. I've found I can now stomach Lucozade Sport but it doesn't have a huge amount of calories. I've also tried running with flat coke, which again does me well, but it's having enough. I can only carry a 600 ml bottle, so not sure if that's enough?

    And the biggie! What is my marathon pace? I got a PB of 3:59:04 in 2010 at Lochaber. I clocked 4:02:18 in Paris, but managed a half marathon PB of 1:42: 27 in February with a 76:43 10 miler in March. My best 5k time of late is 21:48, but my 5k times have never translated well to longer distances as there's such a big jump! 

    Sorry for the huge post! I promise not to spew out that much every time I visit!!!

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Hello Clag.

    Interesting about the iron depletion. There is a whole section in the P&D book about that. Are you male or female? I ask because I think this does affect women more than men...but seems to be a quite widespread problem amongst long distance runners.

    For those tune up races I reckon do a LT run...run slow, then 10mi pace for 25mins...then slow again.

    With fueling you'll just have to keep trying what's best for you. Have you tried jelly bablies? Also - find out what Perthsire marathon is providing. There are other gels you could try like High5 as suggested by Chick.

    As for pace - is Perthshire flat or hilly? I assume you want a PB? Why not aim for 3.45?

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    6mi recovery run for me today.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Hmmm. Just spotted only brought one sock with me. What do I do?!??!

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I am going to have to run sockless. Feels a bit kinky.

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    Swap it to the other foot after 3 miles?

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Can't do that - being an elite pro I have proper left/right running socks. If I put on wrong foot it will break the space time continuum and I'll end up running round in circles forever.

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    6 mile recovery hop?

  • Nose NowtNose Nowt ✭✭✭

    Thanks chickadee. Week 1 of the 12/55 programm has a 'General Aerobic + speed), a general aerobic, a 5 mile recovery and 13 miles (8 at MP).'     I found this odd for a first week of an endurance phase. I guess from your response that the lack of slow miles is a recognised feature of P&D though.    I also guess that the majority of people tweak these programmes anyway.

    Hi Clag...  good to see someone else on the same programme as me, a few weeks ahead.  Looking at your times, it's clear that your marathon times don't quite match with your shorter distance times...  and, as you probably know, this is normally* down to you not having enough base endurance fitness...  where you've done plenty of training of your faster-twitch muscle fibres, but not enough of your slowest twitch muscles/endurance systems (the most important for marathons)

    This is a common imbalance of training, and if that was me - and one which led me (yesterday) to post the query about  the lack of slow running in the P&D programme.

    I'd now be thinking of modifying the next couple of weeks' running to greatly reduce the fast stuff, and concentrate on some really slow running. Perhaps doing 90% of your miles at about 10:15 to 10:30 mins per mile.   Get a few extra miles in too...  then ease your way back into the race prep phase.  If you're now starting the week '6 weeks to goal', then modify the VO2 session, make next Sunday's run slower, and modify the LT run planned for Friday of next week.

    I know some people hate to deviate from a programme. Maybe they're right.  But I just think that, for you, there is no point in honing your V02 and LT, because it looks like your endurance is the thing that's more likely to be the weakest link on race day. Hence why I think it's best to focus on that.

    * The fly in the ointment is the question about your troubles with iron levels.  Did you have low iron for an extended period? Months? Years?  This could make your times unreliable because you probably don't know which were affected by low iron and which weren't. You know that in the 'nutrition' chapter of the P&D book, it covers the role of iron in running physiology...  you should probably have a read at that.

    What's your MP?  Hmmm.  From the above, it makes it difficult.  If you're training well, I'd say that you should choose somewhere between 3:45  and 3:55, depending on how risk averse you are.

    Warm up races?  I think they get you used to race conditions.  So on marathon day, you don't burn loads of nervous energy because of unfamiliarity, and also reminds you to keep an eye on pace.   I'd have thought that warm up races are of less value to someone who's done 7 marathons already.    Good luck

  • 15w - don't do it. Last time I did that I ended up with huge raw patches on my feet where my shoes rubbed and wbeaked back to work barefoot!

    Lisa - definitely try gels. I also favour High5. I found a useful thing was to practice taking them during a HM race. That way you know your stomach copes with them at a faster pace and you also tackle the whole opening and consuming thing at speed. I learnt from experience that I just slowed to make it easy when taking on a LSR which you won't want to do in the marathon. I might try Chick's suggestion tho' as the faff is a nightmare.

  • clag - I have similar marathon times to you but considerably slower HM time so you should be able to improve on this on P&D. However while I'm not familiar with the perthshire highland marathon I'm guessing it isn't likely to be flat based on the location  so bear this in mind when trying to decide on pace.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Too late. Ran it with just the one sock and just ended up with one extra sweaty smelly foot. managed to run in a straight line though.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Has the royal baby been born yet? Can't see anything about it on the news...

  • image............image brilliant.

  • ClagClag ✭✭✭




  • ClagClag ✭✭✭

    The picture above is supposed to show the course elevation! Not convinced that I'm prepared for the hills but we'll see how it goes. I do a lot of hill walking, just don't run up them as often as I should!

    Regarding times, I'm not that bothered. In an ideal world I'd like faster than Paris but I'll quite probably do a Spring marathon. Ultimately this is a celebratory race - I'm 40 the day before it. image

    Re the iron, I'm female. No reason for it to be low as far as I'm aware so it must've been a gradual erosion over time. I can't remember when I last gave blood - 2 or 3 years ago? Stopped as I was always borderline and not allowed to give.

  • Well... you have good days and you have bad days.... today wasn't a good day.

    Week 5/18 - 14k with 8k at HMP... struggled like hell, was close to stopping after 5k of HMP, managed to get to 7k and had nothing left... walked/shuffled the remaining 4k home.

    Already 25c when I started at 7:30am - an autumn marathon sounds lovely in principle but training through this heat is horrendous.

    Dreading my 26k with 16k at MP on Saturday.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Clag - if it's a hilly marathon best to do some of your training on hills.

    Got woken up by a storm this morning. Very exciting. Then I went back to sleep and now I feel like sh!t for some reason. Got 12mi with 6@LT today which is about the last thing I feel like doing at the moment. Going to be wet here today...so that will stop me overheating I guess.

    Mark - put it down to the heat. I am really struggling with the faster stuff this summer. 


  • carterusmcarterusm ✭✭✭

    I was due for 10 with 5 @ LT last night but could only manage 8 with 3 @ LT. It was so hot again and people were looking at me very strangely when I was pouring water over my head to cool down. Surely they are the weirdos not me ??

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