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Tamslin Lewis podcast: Ironman/Marathon, bad for your heart
Anyone listen to the IMtalk podcast this week? I've listened to half of it so far and it makes for some very scary listening, to me at least.
It's an interview with Tamsin Lewis, a trained Dr and professional Ironman athlete. I've listened to half of it so far and it makes for worrying listening.
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I'd imagine it's thousands of times higher than those that die of doing too much.
I'd rather go out doing something I want to be doing.
Have you looked at Tamsin's twitter, she's said it sounds scary when she heard it back and she's clarified a few things as it's not as bad as it sounds.
I can't wait to listen to this! Sadly will have to wait until later.
I'm faily sure (although this isn't evidence based, and I've not read the literature) that I'm more likely to be mugged (someone was mugged in my local park just now) or die on my bike.
As I said I've not listened to it but I do know that thousands upon thousands of people do endurance sport every year. Not many of them have cardiac arrests.
However at the London-Brighton Bike ride this weekend my OH sent many people to hospital following accidents. No one died but one or two were rather close for comfort!
This kind of thing pops up every now and again. There was some interesting stats on a thread a few months ago - a male my age has a 1 in 7 million chance of dying on any given day of 'natural' causes. That rises to 1 in 2 million on a day I run a marathon. Worth the risk? I think so - quality of life an all!
For example, Nov 2009, I smoked 30 Marlboro a day, average 40 pints a week and had a resting heart rate of 79bpm. Half a dozen marathons and an Ironman later I still drink (but not as much) don't smoke and have a resting heart rate of 49bpm. Which is better?
Similar story for me ... If i hadnt taken up endurance sport ... i would have had a heart attack by now
I was almost 20st, often drank from friday luch time till sunday lunch time, and even a normal night out was 20 pints and half bottle of scotch ...
... i'll take my chances with my current lifestyle
How do you find this podcast please? I would find it most interesting having been on the booze & fags end, the endurance afferlete end and now the dicky ticker allegedly as a result of all of it end.
I run because I like running, if I discovered it was bad for me I would still do it. Excessive drinkers, smokers, druggies they all know it is bad for them and they still do it. I am no different, except that the current thinking is that exercise is good for you!
http://ec.libsyn.com/p/6/2/0/620a8ec2eeee0c06/IMTalk_Episode_366_-_Dr_Tamsin_Lewis.mp3?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d01cf863fd3ce559668&c_id=5780756
http://www.imtalk.me/
Exercise at a moderate level can be carried out such that it does not permanently damage your heart but does yield fitness benefits that will extend your life. In other words the heart attack that a person living a sedentary unhealthy lifestyle is likely to have is different to the one that an endurance athlete is likely to have. You don't have to be either category - you can be in the middle.
With that said, Tamsin was clear to articulate that there are many benefits of doing Ironman, such as the comeraderie that you all enjoy and the stress busting benefits that this brings with it. I think Tamsin's point, and bear in mind i've only heard the first half of the podcast so far, seems to be that people should do what they are doing with open eyes. After all, we go to great lengths to tell inactive people, drugs users and smokers that their lifestyle choices might lead to death. Surely endurance athletes should be given the same information?
Unlike many of you I am new to endurance sports, running in my case so far. However, I was completely blind to the information that Tamsin imparted. I'm glad I heard it. The odds are I will eventually do an Ironman anyway. However, I feel better making that choice as an informed individual rather than blindly.
ps. the podcast is on itunes or you can listent at: http://traffic.libsyn.com/ironmantalk/IMTalk_Episode_366_-_Dr_Tamsin_Lewis.mp3
medic girl - are you sporty doc ?
This was a post they popped on Facebook earlier today...
"Crapping yourself after this weeks discussion around heart issues in endurance athletes? I've got a cardiologist (epic camper) who we will get on in a few weeks so if you have any questions post them here. IMHO crack on with things but just take on board the two main messages - check family history and make sure you schedule down time (which you should be doing already). John"
Life is a risk. You prove it everytime you cross the street.
So I couldn't resist listening. Then I got bored and went to look for the paper that the TED talk (and the podcast) was based on.
The conclusion:
In some individuals, long-term excessive endurance ET may cause adverse structural and electrical cardiac remodeling, including fibrosis and stiffening of the atria, RV, and large arteries. This theoretically might provide a substrate for atrial and ventricular arrhythmias and increase CV risk. Further investigation is warranted to identify the exercise threshold for potential toxicity, screening for at-risk individuals, and ideal ET regimens for optimizing CV health. For now, on the basis of animal and human data, CV benefits of vigorous aerobic ET appear to accrue in a dose-dependent fashion up to about 1 hour daily, beyond which further exertion produces diminishing returns and may even cause adverse CV effects in some individuals.
The point about small tears in cardiac muscle sounds right - we know that's what happens in skeletal muscle, and it's the recover phase that builds them up. Tamsin said that recovery was really important. As non professionals I would imagine most people would only do one or max two IMs in a season - leaving quite substantial recovery time.
I think it's unfair to say the IM Training is bad for you. It's good for your mental health, your joint health and CV (because I think the lowered MI risk is greater than the sudden cardiac death risk). There are risks with everything - google them - it's frightening how dangerous driving a car or having a baby are. I love tri, I feel great, I ain't gonna stop just yet.
No! She's a psychiatrist and professional triathlete! I wouldn't profess to either be anywhere near as fast as her or know a tenth of what she'll know about the human brain.
I think too much of anything is bad for you. I really doubt my schedule puts me at risk of over training !
*snigger*
She did mention professionals. I'm fairly sure my Friday night domino's fest puts me more at risk than my heavy *cough* training schedule.
Most sensible thing she said- make sure you train properly and any family history get yourself checked out. And keep an eye on resting HR - is heart recovering.
Interesting stuff.
I think the intermittent problems that only manifest themselves from time to time like PAF often get missed though. Repeatedly.
As part of our work provision, we get the full private health checkup thing, resting and exercise ecg etc. A few weeks ago I came out with a glowing report, better than it has ever been without a trace of a problem, yet am having arrhythmia corrected (I hope) in August, mainly as a result of a trip to A&E in January when I flamed out again sat in front of the telly.
I don't think we have heard the last of this "phenomenon" and the "undiagnosed heart condition" that seems to be the fallback when someone dies in a race is a little vague.
What I can say is that if your ticker drops into arrhythmia, it can be sudden, fecking scary and exhausting. And it frightens the kids as well. Recovery also seems to get slower each time (about a week to ten days now when you are pretty wiped). If you like figures, last time my ticker sat around 130 bm, beating inefficiently, for 14 hours, so IM time sat on the sofa or in bed with a bit of difficulty breathing etc. Shit way to spend the night.
Was chatting to the sonographer who did a echo cardiogram on me following a PFO (Hole in the Heart) closure she noted my low resting HR (45ish bpm) and I mentioned my Marathon training and IM intentions. She talked about her research on elite endurance athlete, mainly marathon runners and the fact that many of them had heart conditions and structural abnormalities caused by years of training, most of these where of interest to her research but were unlikely to be the eventual cause of death for these people. Her view was you were much less likely to die from one of these "over-training" conditions than a heart condition caused by inactivity, smoking or drinking.
Feck it - I'm more likely to be killed by traffic on my bike than a heart attack on my bike (unless traffic induced). I still ride my bike in traffic.
Carry on.
I've dealt with several fatals at the London tri in the last five years....4 have been heart attacks, all of which have been during the corporate relay race, where someone has made up the third leg and done no training, 3 of these have been in the swim section and another fatal was on the bike leg when a member of the public ignored the crossing points and got hit by a bike doing nearly 35mph...but all count for the purpose of triathlon related deaths I bet.
I listened to the podcast this afternoon.
It's obviously something we should be aware of and certainly, it's worth getting checked out if there is a history of heart problems in your family. For most of us though, as long as we are getting enough recovery and aren't pushing ourselves relentlessly then I doubt we have much to worry about.
Her point about the damage our hearts acquire due to racing an Ironman was alarming, but as she said, just like our other muscles recover so does our heart if we allow enough recovery time. It makes me wonder about multiple Ironman racing though.
its not just our end of the spectrum that needs a health check though. She pointed out that the ever popular HIIT sessions can be dangerous too!
someone told TC........
Blimey FF you sound like a bit of a shit magnet
Hope .. with regards multiple IM .. single or conintual I suppose the clarification needs to be what period is 'recovery'? Overnight, days, weeks ...
I love it, scientists always come up with these hypothesies, a couple of weeks ago they were suggesting chemicals in some food packaging is harmful in pregrant women, next week it it will be eating to many banana's will make your pubes curly.
Lifes a risk, everything we do carries risk, I know I enjoy doing the training, cammoradorie and sense of achievement I get from Ironman races. Ironman give me a focus an incentive to have a heathier life. Its quite clear to me from the effects from the off season that id soon be 18+ stone again if I didnt have an Ironman to train for.
Ive been at about 4 Tris and a few marathon where people died, terrible for the individual and their familes but I cant help wondering if the same x thousand people had been gardening or watching tele would the mortality rate been different? thats aside from the benefits those competing would have gained from being fitter.
Lets see, rough calculations on a the back of a nicotine patch.
Total deaths in the Triathlon and Marathon races ive participated in 5 or 6.
Total participant in all Triathlon and Marathon races ive participated in 200,000?
Ive no idea what the average daily mortality rate is but 1 in 40,000 doesnt sound to bad.
I would rather pop my sparkly clogs doing something I love!
Totally agree