Grammar pedants?

Screamapillar

Wilkie wrote (see)

I think maybe the British fill a form IN, and the Americans fill it OUT.

Could be. In makes more sense to me as it suggests the addition of something. After all, you fill a gap in, you don't fill it out.

literatin

I can't believe I missed this whole thread. Must have been actually working or something. Anyway, I would say that the reason it would be difficult to teach spelling, punctuation and grammar adequately in schools is that many teachers will be my age (30s) or younger, and we weren't taught it when we were at school either. Many university students who graduate with a 2:1 aren't that good at it, and they will be the ones who go on to do PGCEs and become teachers. They have plenty of other excellent and relevant skills, but not necessarily that one.

Split infinitives are fine, though.

[Deleted User]

Using the word "fill" for a form at all doesn't feel right. I would prefer "complete", "filling" things sounds like there should be something more tangible than information in there.

[Deleted User]

I have a feeling there are some gramma in jokes going on here about split infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions, etc, though I dont know what.

Canute

Without the equivalent of the Acade'mie Francaise or Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, I'm afraid English is at the mercy of custom and practice, innit.

Philomena Cunk

I always used to ask for an expresso at a coffee bar until someone told me I was using the wrong word. I'm happy to be corrected by people. Life is a learning process.

Beth Roberts

"So although I do not see spelling or grammar as an absolute measure of intelligence, nor do i think that poor spelling is a sign of a lack of intelligence, I do wonder how some of these Degrees were earned."

I don't think it's necessarily about levels of intelligence - I think it has more to do with laziness and trying to be cool.

And for the "should of" debate - it is incorrect and lazy.  If I were an employer I would not consider a candidate who could not be bothered to write 'should have' - or worse, did not even know that this was wrong.  Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but ultimately it's about standards - personal presentation isn't just about what you wear.

Pudge

Correct, it's about HOW you wear it Beth.

Not many people can pull off a chino/brogue/tank top combo.

Beth Roberts

Picture please.....!

Screamapillar

That's true Beth, I think it is laziness more than anything.

As SR pointed out earlier, if you genuinely believe it's "pacific" and someone points out it's "specific" how hard has that been to learn? How much will it cost you to remember it? All that's happened is that you've been saved from looking a prawn in front of someone else.

Lose/loose is my pet peeve. It's so illogical. If you think "lose" is spelled "loose" then how do you think "loose" is spelled?  "Looose"? 

literatin

'loosse', I should think, as the vowel sound is similar but the s is different. Though actually it's pretty logical to spell 'lose' as 'loose', since the oo sound is actually longer in 'lose'.

Pudge

Screamapillar wrote (see)

 

Lose/loose is my pet peeve. It's so illogical. If you think "lose" is spelled "loose" then how do you think "loose" is spelled?  "Looose"? 

No - duh.

It's Lousse.

Which it obviously is, because that's how Mousse is spelled (save for the 'M').

The English language is fucked up in so may ways, it is small wonder that mistakes are made.  That goes for everybody, Wilkie included.

Screamapillar

Mousse is French though Pudge 

Pudge

Screamapillar wrote (see)

Mousse is French though Pudge 

Fair point.  That's me told then!

seren nos

Beth Roberts wrote (see)

"So although I do not see spelling or grammar as an absolute measure of intelligence, nor do i think that poor spelling is a sign of a lack of intelligence, I do wonder how some of these Degrees were earned."

I don't think it's necessarily about levels of intelligence - I think it has more to do with laziness and trying to be cool.

And for the "should of" debate - it is incorrect and lazy.  If I were an employer I would not consider a candidate who could not be bothered to write 'should have' - or worse, did not even know that this was wrong.  Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but ultimately it's about standards - personal presentation isn't just about what you wear.

 

 

how can you say its just incorrect and lazy........until a few years ago and on this forum i was not aware that should of and could of was incorrect.......if my teachers told me in school then it never regsitered at all and stayed they........i say it that was and therefore write it that way........now when on the forums i do tend to stop and think as to what is correct.........

but in the past I was not lazy ..just writing what i believed to be correct.......but i was bloody good and accurate at my job when i used to work.....so if you would prefer someone to pay you incorrectlyeach month but knew the difference between the of's and the haves.....then you seem to be more of an idiot than me

 

and I did O'levels not GCSE's

xine111

Peter Collins wrote (see)

Ok, my biggest bugbear at the moment is the misuse of 'impact' to mean 'effect'. Effect is a perfectly good word as both noun and verb, but formulations such as 'how does this impact you?' mean nothing and are extremely ugly.

I think that is because they don't know the difference between 'effect' and 'affect' so avoid the issue by using 'impact'

Slowkoala

GCSEs

[Deleted User]

Slowkoala wrote (see)

GCSEs

CC82

Steven ODonoghue 3 wrote (see)

Although I shouldn't be because I have written job applications and prepared interview presentations for people who are very highly educated in comparison to myself. 

Where did this trend come from?  People referring to "myself", "yourself" instead of "me", "you" is my gripe.

Screamapillar

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one Xine 

Peter Collins

Wilkie wrote (see)

Beth Roberts wrote (see)

The problem is that over generations the standard of teaching seems to have dropped off massively.  I look at posts on Faceache these days and the majority of people seem to have forgotten how to spell - never mind grammar! 

This is a massive bugbear of mine and I seriously wonder what kids today are taught at school.  It is little wonder that companies are complaining about the appalling levels of literacy and numeracy seen in youngsters applying for jobs, when most of them cannot identify the difference between simple words like 'trial' and 'trail' - used in the context of 'I have a trail for a new job today'........!!! (and that is a real example from someone who has just finished school).  Unbelievable!

Don't even get me started on 'would of'.......................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GRRRRR

I agree with Beth.  

People in general haven't got less intelligent, so the reason for the huge drop in standards of written English over the last couple of decades must come down to schools.

Don't they teach spelling any more?  

I went to a state comprehensive, in a not-very-posh area, and we used to have regular spelling tests when I was a school, and they taught us the basics of grammar and puctuation.

 

 

 

My kids both go to state schools and both have regular spelling tests - my daughter, much to my joy, is very good at it. I'm not always sure it's the schools all the time; there is also a degree of anti-intellectualism among some sections of society - that book learnin' ain't no good, paw - and that what matters is being streetwise and cool in front of your mates. That's a wider societal problem. I think people are also surrounded by media (mediums?) that specialise in bad grammar/spelling - I'm thinking of twitter, texting, deliberately misspelt brand names and so on and so forth. That bain't be all down to schools!

Peter Collins

Incidentally, did anyone see this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2013/jul/04/shitstorm-german-dictionary-duden-shitschturm

Peter Collins

seren nos wrote (see)

they might have been teaching  you spelling and punctuation Wilkie...but they should have been teaching the skills need for engineering etc as that is where our country has major shortages...........

same as with a shortage of plumbers etc a few years ago..........

all the correct punctuation in the world is not going to make you top in the world of design and technology.......its not going to invent the next generation of phones or computers or environmentally friendly energy production

I seem to recall some space exploration project went completely wrong because one lot of engineers in Europe had been working in metric and another lot in the US were working in imperial measures. Some spacecraft missed it's target by tens of thousands of miles/kilometres because of that simple lack of communication. Even engineers and technology people have to communicate clearly and in a standard way this is fully understood by other people - for this you require good communication skills, which includes a smattering of decent grammar and spelling.

Screamapillar

Or brand names with all lower case lettering.

I had to write some copy for kate spade new york, except, of course, when writing about the designer herself rather than her overpriced tat, she was Kate Spade who was based in New York. Swapping between the two was really bliddy annoying.

If I ever see her I will smash her pretentious face in 

Peter Collins

seren nos wrote (see)

I really don't know what the problem is with should of....you know exactly what it being said.it doesn't make it unclear as to what is being written.....

It communicates the same meaning and language is about communication

To my mind it marks someone out as lacking in understanding, which is a vital attribute. Try reversing it and seeing if have can replace of in any situation...

Peter Collins

xine267 wrote (see)

Peter Collins wrote (see)

Ok, my biggest bugbear at the moment is the misuse of 'impact' to mean 'effect'. Effect is a perfectly good word as both noun and verb, but formulations such as 'how does this impact you?' mean nothing and are extremely ugly.

I think that is because they don't know the difference between 'effect' and 'affect' so avoid the issue by using 'impact'

 

xine267 wrote (see)

Peter Collins wrote (see)

Ok, my biggest bugbear at the moment is the misuse of 'impact' to mean 'effect'. Effect is a perfectly good word as both noun and verb, but formulations such as 'how does this impact you?' mean nothing and are extremely ugly.

I think that is because they don't know the difference between 'effect' and 'affect' so avoid the issue by using 'impact'

I did of course mean affect, but I do know the difference - that's the trouble with writing at speed while you're working. 

 

Sorry folks to gum up this thread!!! only just catching up.

Peter Collins

Peter Collins wrote (see)

seren nos wrote (see)

they might have been teaching  you spelling and punctuation Wilkie...but they should have been teaching the skills need for engineering etc as that is where our country has major shortages...........

same as with a shortage of plumbers etc a few years ago..........

all the correct punctuation in the world is not going to make you top in the world of design and technology.......its not going to invent the next generation of phones or computers or environmentally friendly energy production

I seem to recall some space exploration project went completely wrong because one lot of engineers in Europe had been working in metric and another lot in the US were working in imperial measures. Some spacecraft missed it's target by tens of thousands of miles/kilometres because of that simple lack of communication. Even engineers and technology people have to communicate clearly and in a standard way this is fully understood by other people - for this you require good communication skills, which includes a smattering of decent grammar and spelling.

Did anyone spot how I used it's when it should have been its!? And 'that is' fully understood! D'oh!