HADD Training Method



  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    I need to catch up! Triathlon looming and some real life stuff in the way, so still not much running from me (deliberate decision after the marathon in April). 160 miles on the bike in the last 2 weeks and 192 lengths in the pool too... hoping to sneak in a long open water swim on Sunday. 11th June is the Leeds ITU triathlon - my wave is the Men's 50-54 British Championships, which I don't like the sound of (last year it was mixed age/ability/sex)!! Ironically, this year I am dreading the 10K run at the end more than the rest of it. Including taper, that's now 8 weeks of low mileage ... but what miles I have run, have generally been quality miles (5K race pace or MP). 20:01 5K race 2 weeks ago and a 20:27 at parkrun last Saturday, so I think it won't take too much to reactivate things once I am back at it. Lacking the long slow stuff though ... relying on bike to tick that box.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Today's effort, experimented with a 10 second walking break on big hills to help HR and seems to have worked, last mile went off route and paid for it with some big inclines, felt really fresh at end like I could have done it all again:

    Mile 1:  133 / 12:44
    Mile 2:  139 / 12:14
    Mile 3:  140 / 13:23
    Mile 4:  143 / 12:42
    Mile 5:  141 / 12:51
    Mile 6:  145 / 13:16

    Total Average 140 / 12:57
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Just found my stats for the exact same run in January:

    Mile 1:  144 / 12:23
    Mile 2:  142 / 12:59
    Mile 3:  148 / 14:18
    Mile 4:  143 / 13:41
    Mile 5:  151 / 14:38
    Mile 6:  146 / 13:35

    Total Average 146 / 13:39

    This was a colt wet January day, today was about 18 degrees and humid, shows progress of sorts, I've had a few bugs and infections this year but just wish I was a little faster, the GNR seems to be getting closer quickly!

    Iprice - that's good to see some definite progress by your stats.   And just taking that 10 second walk will keep the HR down as once it gets too high you lose more speed by trying to get it back down.

    You still have 3 months or so to GNR, plenty time as you've already done a few 10 mile runs.

    My hilly ultra today 32.4 miles, 4k feet of climb :'(  over beautiful Dartmoor
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers Shades, I didn't think I was progressing until I did the comparison, my ambitions are not high in running I'd settle for 11 min miles at 140 before the GNR, will keep chugging away!  Dartmoor is beautiful, could always get a lift off a pony!
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    Hope the ultra went well shades.

    20 miles today...  wearing new trail shoes and ultra vest for the first time. Shoes great. Vest great except the water bottle on the front has bruised my ribs. Need to get that sorted

    First 14 were all well disciplined at sub 70- but I needed to get home, so the I stepped up to LTHR for the last 6.
    Iprice - another 3 months training and you'll certainly show great improvement, just keep focussed on keeping that HR down.

    NorthEnder - ultra went very well thank you, better than expected.  It's a very tough race the hills are brutal and that includes the downhills.  Last year I missed the cut off at marathon point of 5:15 by 3 minutes, this year I got to marathon point at 5:09 and finished the race in 6:32:17.   I even managed a small PB, my last PB at this race was in 2005, I thought with age PB's were a thing of the past for me.   If you ever fancy a superbly well organised road ultra over a beautiful course then you should run Dartmoor Discovery.

    That's annoying about the water bottle, is it possible to put a thin sponge to line the part that hits your ribs?
  • What distance was the ultra Shades? 
    I have it in my head that ultra are not always the same distance?
    Martyn - ultras are over marathon distance, typically they tend to start at 30 mile/50km but can be any distance.   DD is 32.4 miles, but the hills are very tough.
  • Excellent. Maybe one day I will do one.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers Shades, was talking to someone today who said I should be starting to do some 1 mile intervals at goal race pace with a few mins rest in between, I'm guessing that this would be counter productive to HADDing?
    Martyn - one day you might decide to try an ultra, there's no rush.   There's less emphasis in an ultra on finishing time, more enjoying and finishing the event and as the pace is slower than marathon pace they can be very enjoyable.

    Iprice - no, you don't want to do intervals now.   Stick with your base training and you'll have moved up to doing ILTHR in a while.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers, are there any quick links on here regards ILTHR? I presume this is the stage you move to when you can run ten mile with no cardiac drift?
    That's right, it's in the Hadd document, skip to the end and it's summarised, by MHR.  Link here if you haven't already got a copy saved http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Sorry yes read that before, so basically running at a higher HR and therefore pace, but am guessing gradually building that up rather than trying to blast out an hour at 160? Or running at 160 then winding back the pace to keep HR at 160 for the duration of the run?

    Also am I right in thinking that this would only be say one run a week the rest would be back to 65-70% MHR runs?
  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Yes, build to 60 minutes at 80%, perhaps once you can run that continuously, add till you reach 75 minutes. No more. If you think you can run for an hour, go for it! Otherwise, run manageable chunks of time with recoveries. I started with 3x15 minutes with 3 minute recovery, going on to 4x15, 3x20, etc. Repeat until you can run each interval at the same HR and the last is not strenuous. I repeated each one twice. The first interval is not to be run at goal HR; that would be much too fast. Estimate the pace your 80% will require and run at that pace until the HR catches up. If and when you think you can handle it twice weekly, the second will be at the next level, ie 5bpm higher, for shorter intervals, like 3x10 minutes, 3x12, 3x15 etc. 
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Ok cheers, but need to be able to do ten mile with little or no cardiac drift to get to this stage? Presumably at a reasonably consistent pace though?
  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    No, I'd say first be capable of 90 minutes for a 70-75% run without drift. Mind you, this is on flat and consistent terrain. 
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Don't think such terrain exists where I live! But the pace must be consistent and by drift I presume there's one or two  bpm's allowed difference?
  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    Iprice, I'd recommend then that you run a loop course (preferably 3 or more), where you can compare HRs. Exclude the first 10-15 minutes or so as the HR gets up to speed. From the 15 minute mark, you are looking for a stable HR till the end. 5bpm or so is acceptable drift. 

    Speaking of hills, I saw a question a while back that I did not respond to. In short. Hadd recommends running in the hills, especially long runs. (I'd think that SubLT runs in the hills are not good, as the HR will be all over the place - too high on the ups and too low on the downs. The point of the SubLT is to stress the body at a consistent relatively high HR.) You do NOT need to walk uphills to keep HR down. Running up hills are good. They build strength and stress muscle fibres not otherwise recruited. Reaching the hill, don't try maintain effort - and certainly not pace - up the hill, but back off, and try to keep your HR within range. But don't shuffle; keep good running mechanics. You can allow the HR to rise on the hill, but bring it back under control soon after. Don't race downhill to keep the HR in range. 

    Another recent question was about cross training, specifically cycling. The truth is, aerobic conditioning helps. Heart and lung power strengthens. However, when you are not exercising your running leg muscles, you are not building and improving your capillaries and mitochondria, which is what you need to get the oxygen into the muscles and increase and improve fuel conversion and rate. So, in short, while cycling is better, cross training has limited benefit. There's nothing like running for aerobic benefit. 

    Another question regarding mile repeats. I assume the objective is to give your legs some zip. There's something to that. Although there are alternatives. You could go race a 5k. You could do Hadd's 200-200 routine. (200m at 5k pace with 200m float). Or 500-500. (Similar idea) However, bearing in mind that during base training you're just not going to do your best in the race anyway, what's the point? You may get a little faster working the anaerobic system, but it is relatively small, short term gains. I prefer to keep the long term goals in mind and focus on getting through the phases. Doing Hadd properly will get you very fast. Your best will come after real training which, in turn, is built upon a solid aerobic foundation. 

    Before I started Hadding, I was preparing for a HM in the best (traditional) way possible. I did the 20-minute tempos, the mile repeats, the track sessions, etc, etc. My time was 1hr 38.  3 months later, with just 3 months of Hadd in my legs, and ZERO speed work, I ran 1hr 33.  2 months later (last week) again with no speedwork, I ran 1hr 28! This included two back-to-back 10ks each faster than a 10k I did in February! And I've still got a way to go... This Hadd method truly works wonders! 

    This past week I kind of took off. Just 26.6 miles over 3 runs in 3hr 50. Including a long run of 120 minutes. No quality work, not so soon after the race. 

    Good luck, all! 
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers Sol, I'd reckoned on about 5pm being okay, I don't think I'm probably too far off where I need to be but will keep chugging away and keeping an eye on things.  It's hard for me at the paces I'm running at to back off on the hills and not ruining mechanics hence the walking breaks

    Was asking about cross training as was considering swapping a run for a bike session but think not now and regards intervals yes just to put some zip in my legs, sometimes I feel like I'm holding my legs back.
  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    Iprice, do you do strides? You could do 6-8 twice a week. That will help. And, being short, are alactic (cause no lactate) thus no reason not to. Hadd recommends them too. When doing SubLTs, strides are to be done after the warm up and before the main session.

    I was going to add links to Hadd's words in connection to the topics discussed above. 

    Hadd in the hills 

    This here is a great thread. Many gems for everyone. 

    Racing (or high intensity training) during Base Phase. 

    Happy reading! 
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Interesting points, I've been doing some strides at the end of most runs between lamp posts on occaision but will definitely try and fit some in every session now. I'm starting to see a lot more consistency in HR's now on runs and what's more noticeable of late is my HR comes down on the flat and certainly on decline's which never happened at first.  Will keep plugging away for the next two weeks then reevaluate and might try a ILTHR
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Stats for todays run, woefully unprepared for the conditions ie shorts and t-shirt and was 9 degrees and lashing wind and rain, had some strange HR spikes from the Garmin in mile 5 (think it may have been slipping around in the wet, mile 6 & 7 didn't back off on the hills and really feeling the effect of the weather.  Not making excuses but conditions were dreadful and I wasn't prepared and probably ruined my run

    Mile 1 13:03 / 142
    Mile 2 12:31 / 143
    Mile 3 13:21 / 143
    Mile 4 12:57 / 145
    Mile 5 13:04 / 148
    Mile 6 12:32 / 152
    Mile 7 12:17 / 154
    Nothing you can do about the weather and running into the wind just ramps up the HR.  We had the same weather here yesterday, all calm and sunny now though.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Still windy here but a lot warmer, was the cold that caught me out and road became water logged and was literally ankle deep in some places  :#
  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    Yesterday's weather was indeed horrible! I couldn't face it, so well done for braving it! 
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Just wondering if anyone's noticed any difference in HR on a treadmill compared to the road?  Or any problems with HR generally on a treadmill, mine can be all over the place at times on a treadmill but much more stable on the road.  Tonight my HR rose up for about thirty mins then dropped down substantially and remained stable for the next twenty minutes, well odd, could be Garmin related like!
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    Sorry. Treadmills not in my repertoire!    

    20 miler yesterday... pretty good control of HR on a very hilly route.  My HR seems to have gone back to roughly where it was, after a week of being generally raised.  Hopefully it continues in that direction to show some improvement.  If I can fit it in, I intend to do a Hadd test on Saturday... if I miss that time slot, I can't see where else I can do it in the coming 2 months!
    Iprice - I've never been on a treadmill in my life, so can't help.  

    NorthEnder - good to hear your HR is back to normal and training going well.  

    It's hard to fit a Hadd test in, will be interesting to see your results.

    I've been racing too much to do a Hadd test but have a 5 week training block planned for July with no races so intend to do a Hadd test at the end of that training period.
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