HADD Training Method



  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Treadmill HR can be higher due to over-heating ... depends on ventilation/temp in the room.

    Almost time for me to get back to proper runnign again! Chester marathon training starts next week. Sunday was the Leeds ITU standard distance triathlon for me ... woke up at 01:30 and couldn't get back to sleep. Had breakfast by 04:30 and was in the car an hour later feeling like I'd already done the race! There's a whole other level of stress surrounding triathlons anyway, but a big open water tri like this is even worse. However, I somehow managed to get set up and ready and was in the water at 07:30 with the contenders for the British 50-54 age group championships (and me! ... my younger club mates escaped this). As might be expected, most of the nation's best old-folk triathletes soon had a healthy lead as soon as the swim started... I just tried to stay relaxed and I was glad to see there were some folk behind me also making up the numbers. Once the initial acclimatisation had taken place, I did have time to contemplate why the hell I was in the middle of a lake at the crack of dawn - it was all a bit surreal. The swim was a couple of minutes slower than last year (much less training, so not surprised!). T1 and T2 were both at Roundhay park this year (last time we cycled to Leeds and did the run there), so the bike route was harder as a result and, alongside the blustery wind, I was now down almost 7 minutes on the previous year! Finally came the run back to Leeds. After only 67 miles of running  in the 7 weeks since London, I was dreading this as post-bike running is particularly painful. But one thing that you can rely on is that most amateur triathletes cannot run ... despite my pain, only 3 over took me during the first 7K on the way to Leeds while I picked off hoards of them (not sure after that as we merged with folks doing laps of the city centre). The run came out at 45 minutes dead (7:15/mi) which allowed me to claw back 1:25 on last year. Good fun ... I might make this my main early year target next year instead of a run (suspect next year will be the last year in Leeds). Awesome watching the elites afterwards ... those Brownlee boys are a class act.
    Well done Dr Dan, great report and you did really well. 

    I just can't imagine how hard a triathlon must be, all that mental angst about 3 disciplines to master plus the transitions.
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    It's a logistical nightmare ... but a standard distance is physically and mentally easier than a marathon. Not sure I'd ever want to do a half-iron man though.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    I only use the treadmill now out of necessity, ie when the kids are in swimming.  I've read on other forums how people find treadmills easier but I find them much harder!
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Stats from today, felt quite leggy, mix of roads and public footpaths and went from being baked on windswept fields to chilly woods, any feedback good, bad or indifferent is always appreciated:

    Mile 1 12:14 / 132
    Mile 2 12:39 / 143
    Mile 3 13:19 / 142
    Mile 4 12:58 / 146
    Mile 5 13:07 / 147
    Mile 6 13:51 / 148
    Mile 7 13:07 / 152
    Mile 8 13:08 / 152

    Some strange HR spikes in 7 & 8 that I've no explanation for and one or two others mid run, make the Garmin graph look really odd!  Was trying a lot to keep the HR below 145 where possible.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Forgot to add overall average was 13:04 / 146
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Forgot to add overall average was 13:04 / 146
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Treadmill run from Friday (no 1 son was in swimming lessons in same building):

    Mile 1 13:02 / 128
    Mile 2 13:02 / 134
    Mile 3 12:49 / 138
    Mile 4 13:25 / 139
    Mile 5 13:05 / 141
    Mile 6 13:19 / 143

    Total 13:06 / 137
    Iprice - have you done your race to find out your MHR yet?

    You do seem to be getting better at controlling your HR.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers Shades, I've found on the treadmill even decreasing speed by 0.1 km/h can bring the HR down when I'm past the hour mark.  All my outdoor runs are always over undulating terrains so harder to control but I can see it is getting better.  No, no race yet, my weekends are crazy at the minute!
  • How is everyones HR coping with the heat? 
    Before May 1st Marathon I had my 70% runs down to 11:15/30 as an average pace per mile. 
    I have since found that my HR has been averaging 12:00/15 per mile which I was expecting after the big race.
    However our current heatwave has me averaging 13:00 per mile! 
    Martyn - you really do suffer in the heat.

    The last 2 mornings I've run at 5 a.m., yesterday was lovely and fresh but this morning it was like running in treacle and I've just checked on the internet and it was 97% humidity at 5 a.m.   But I'm only doing short training runs at the moment 5 to 8 miles as I've been racing every weekend.   Roughly my average training mileage has only slowed by 10 to 15 seconds per mile.

    I've got another marathon this weekend and then a 5 week race free period to get a decent block of Hadd training done.
  • Blimey, such a difference!
    i think I maybe finally a hip niggle that has been at me since a Parkrun 4 or 5 weeks ago so now plan on doing a 10k race next Tuesday as I have a soft PB so will try for that, followed by a Half Marathon next Saturday. I don't feel like I'm in PB shape for that so can just have fun. 

    I just got around to watching the Leeds Triathlon which looked very hilly, fair play Dr Dan. 
    Martyn - I do train early in the morning though and I'm sure if I was running later in the day I'd be suffering more due to the heat and my training paces would be slower

    Hopefully it should have cooled a bit for your 10k race next week.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    I've noticed differences yes, Sunday in particular my breathing was dreadful and was very heavy legged.
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    I don't know if I can blame the heat.  I have a 'benchmark' mile that I've done quite often at the end of a 4 to 5 mile run... and I expected this to get faster and faster.  But it's got slower and slower over quite an extended period.    Not feeling confident in all this.  I feel fine running... it's just that I seem to be going backwards.  I really can't blame the heat because this is a pattern over a period.

    Anyway... shades... what's your marathon this weekend.  I'm doing one near Brecon.
    NorthEnder - it might be the increase in humidity over the past few weeks that's affected your bench mile.  I tend to compare average pace for the whole run, that's just the way I do my stats.

    Good luck for your Brecon marathon, hopefully the heat will not be a problem as it's due to ease up a bit.   Be careful, a friend of mine that did it last year fell in the dark, broke his glasses and teeth, but he's still doing it again this year so it's not put him off.

    In complete contrast to your event I have a flat road event at Boddington in Glos.   I don't do that any of that rough stuff. o:)
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Just a quick query for everyone, does the level of exertion go up at all for you when the HR has risen during normal / familiar runs? Or are you monitoring HR and backing off to keep it down?
    I monitor my HR as I'm running and adjust pace to keep HR down when I need to.   I don't use the 'beep' on my Garmin to warn me if my HR is too high, it annoys me and I also want to develop more of a feel rather than rely on an alarm.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Stat's from todays run, 80% humidity, a real struggle today but have tried to monitor my HR in relation to pace and make an effort to keep the HR under 140 where possible, it's resulted in a loss in pace but can't help but think conditions aren't helping (25 degrees according to car):

    Mile 1 13:04 / 128
    Mile 2 13:20 / 135
    Mile 3 13:37 / 135
    Mile 4 14:03 / 137
    Mile 5 13:58 / 137
    Mile 6 14:02 / 138
    Mile 7 14:02 / 143
    Mile 8 13:58 / 143

    Mile 8 is finished on a long incline for about half a mile and 7 had a couple of odd HR spikes.  Max HR reading wise the heighest I hit at any point was 154 but 8 was 170 before I backed right off.  Hopefully it is conditions affecting pace but I'd love to try a nice cool day!
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Forgot to say overall was 13:45 / 137.  If I was to start doing ILTHR at some point soon where would I be looking to be HR wise, 150-155 or 155-160 HR?
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    Hi Iprice...  I'm not sure about your ILTHR...  there is guidance in the Hadd paper, based on your HRmax.  What's yours? But first, I have had the impression that your current runs tend to be a bit fast now. I've not studied in detail, but I seem to see you slow down AND your HR rise.  Obviously not massively, but I think you should not be having both of these happening.  I think we should see your HR being more consistent - which would probably mean we see your pace dropping in order to make that happen.  
    Incidentally, a direct answer to your question of yesterday, I use the HR alert on my Garmin and (as I implied already) slow down to maintain HR.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers Northender, a bit fast? Did you mean now or historic? The stats above if I've slowed and there's a little rise it's normally due to some hills on that split where I back off. I've never raced or don't a MHR test, I did some intervals on a treadmill in January which were really tough, 6 x 500m with recoveries, and in the last two recorded MHR's of 178 and 184 and the average for those two splits was 174, so as a working hypothesis I've estimated 190 for MHR.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Some more stats, including the max HR this time, tried to run by pace tonight and monitor the relationship between it and HR:

    Mile 1 11:55 / 136 / 151
    Mile 2 12:00 / 145 / 155
    Mile 3 12:19 / 145 / 154
    Mile 4 12:19 / 144 / 159
    Mile 5 12:17 / 149 / 158

    Total 12:10 / 144 / 159
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Tonight's treadmill run, when I'm running a little quicker than my long slow run I can see a bit of a trend developing on the 5th split, longer slower runs tend to be more consistent for about 45 minutes longer.

    Mile 1 12:31 / 136 / 150
    Mile 2 12:38 / 141 / 154
    Mile 3 12:33 / 141 / 151
    Mile 4 12:25 / 140 / 162
    Mile 5 12:31 / 145 / 159

    With the HR climbing consistently on this 5th split
  • Good evening all,
    I am happy to report that I am back on the PB trail after beating my soft 54min 10k PB, set back in 2014 by over 3 mins tonight.
    I was taking part in leg six of the East Midland Grand Prix on home soil despite not being happy with recent training and niggles.
    The weather was in my favour with a nice cool breeze and constant drizzle which no doubt helped.
    I started towards the back, unaware that this race had no timing matt which must of cost me 30 seconds.
    Mile Splits 8:13, 8:26 (Hill, eased off to save myself), 8:07, 8:08, 8:04, 8:09, and 0.23 in 1:23. 
    Time 51:03 unoffical with a nice kick in the last 50 meters to catch someone on the line.

    I was worried about this race due to new exercise routines, only given to me on Saturday by the Physio for suspected Patellar Tendonitis which has reared its ugly head again. 
    I also had really bad back ache this morning, so I had no idea how I would perform.

    Not the best plan in the world considering, but I now have four days before a Half Marathon in Dublin on Saturday with 1:55:27 to beat, although I will just go with the flow, depending on how I feel after this. 
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    Good luck with those niggles Martyn... and well done on the pb.  Maybe the old pb seemed soft to you, but that's only of the work you've put in since you set it.

    Steady away iPrice...   (when I last mentioned increases in your HR later in runs, I was including your treadmill effort in my thinking... which presumably wasn't affected by hills!)

    A pretty satisfactory time of 5:59:39 for my "midnight mountain marathon" on Saturday night (4300ft of total climb).  I hope I didn't overcook it... it was supposed to be mainly a training run but couldn't help getting a bit competitive. Full race report on the P&D thread p94.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers, I do seem to be making some progress, I've looked at some similar treadmill runs from Feb / March time and for example:

    5 Mile / 12:49 / 149 (March)
    4.76 Mile / 13:19 / 154 (Feb)
    4.62 mile / 13:07 / 151 (Feb)

    I'm aiming to do my long slow runs around 135 but shorter runs of about an hour I'm trying to look at 140.

  • Nice running Northender, certainly a Race to look back on and say that you have done it!
  • Clontarf (Dublin) Half Marathon

    Build up
    So, just four days after my 10k race, I took a Half Marathon with lots of niggles since MK Marathon two months ago, this may of not been my brightest idea.
    I managed 71 miles in May, and just 84 miles in June due to ongoing niggles holding me back. 
    All miles were at 70% average Heartrate, LSR at as near to 70% as possible with the heat bumping it up, plus I tried to fit in a LT 80% run once a week as well. 
    The longest run was 12 miles, which gave me a little doubt with regards to my stamina going into this.
    My recent 10k PB of 51:xx gave me a nice confidence boost on Tuesday beforehand.

    The plan
    Due to a four day turnaround, I rested for two days before a 3.5 mile recovery run on Friday. It was about getting my body to the start line in as best possible condition as I now had a very stiff groin to go along with Patellar Tendonitis to my left knee and a left hip which was improving. 
    So all in all I failed to see my 1:55 Half set in November as on, so instead thought a sub 2 would be more suitable.

    I arrived nice and early to pick up my race number in familiar surroundings. I previously had my second ever race here, three years ago, a 5 mile race which I completed in 45 mins. I also used to do many training runs along here so was looking forward to the very flat terrain.

    Despite being early, the toilet queue put me behind, leaving me starting towards the rear of the field which I was happy enough with as it would give me the two hour group to aim at and then have some in hand. I could of got infront of the 2 hour group, but decided to do a half a mile warm up with one set of strides instead. 

    Mile 1 8:50
    Lots of weaving then went on, with lots of this on the grass. The yellow balloon with the two hour group was about 600 meters ahead of me to begin with.
    Mile 2 9:00
    I started using two guys who were running at a similar pace as shields, just following them through the gaps. I had planned to hopefully keep things at 9 min pace. 
    Mile 3 9:00, Mile 4 9:02
    We were now onto the beach, thankfully on hard sand. I stuck as far away from the sea as possible here to make sure that I was on the hardest surface. I was overtaking many runners at this point who may of gone off too quick. I took my first gel at the end of mile 4 and took a bottle from the water station. One of the two lads were still by my side.
    Mile 5 9:01
    Finally back on the path and just about latching onto the 2 hour group out of the strong wind that had appeared into our face.
    Mile 6 8:38
    I was into a great rhythm but felt that the congested group was slowing me down. The leaders of the race were now coming back down the same path, meaning my group had to keep right. This had me running in surges in order to overtake chunks of this group, while making sure I was not getting into the way of the leaders on the other side. The leader was wearing a Spanish Triathlon all in one outfit so must of been training for an iron man event? His name turned out to be Jesus Calle Arroyo who won this in 1:19:xx although I can't see any record of much Triathlon World series participation, with only one race, back in 2015. I went through 10k in 55:19 which I was happy with.
    Mile 7 8:54, Mile 8 8:58
    Lots of congestion as we turned to trace our steps, with a few bumping into each other at the water station very closely after the turn. I was now with the lead sub 2 pacer, sheltering behind a few from the wind.
    Mile 9 8:54
    We turned so that the wind should be on our right shoulders, pushing us forward, so I got over as far right as I could for this to aid me.
    Mile 10 9:18, Mile 11 9:14
    We were back onto the beach, with the wind into our face, I was now ahead of the two hour group, surging from one group to the next, using each group as a wind shelter. Many were fading here, so I couldn't stay behind any group for long as they were not moving quick enough. This was sapping my energy so waited for the two hour group to catch up my new group and then used the last mile of the beach as a re-energizing moment, deep within the pack to stay out of the wind. 
    Mile 12 and 13.10 8:52, 8:59, (7:04)
    One last drink, before pushing away from the sub 2 pack once again, overtaking many on this part over a long wooden bridge. I could not keep this up as I had managed in the Marathon though, so instead was trying to keep trying to lengthen my stride and up my cadence. 
    I was still ahead of the sub 2 group with one final kick, zigzagging and overtaking a good few in the final 50 meters. 
    157:40 Watch (1:57:37 chip).
    Happy with beating 2 hours, and this is still my second quickest half out of the five I have taken part in. 

    Yet more rest will be on the menu in the next week with many exercises and another meeting with the Physio next Saturday before hopefully starting to Hadd again. 

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