HADD Training Method



  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Great report Martyn and well done
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Could I also just ask Martyn where does your HR / MHR relate to your race times? Just trying to get my head around where peoples training HR's relate to race efforts
  • Hi Iprice, it varies on how warm it is as to how my HR behaves but I suppose that an average 5 mile run recently at just under 70% would come out at 12:20 per mile, and 79% Lt run has recently averaged at about 9:40. 
    The above data is very rough though and was more like 11:20 and 9:20 in April before the Marathon and summer arrived. 
    I hope that helps?
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Yes it's very interesting looking at different folks HR over different runs, cheers.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Just a quick question for anyone, how does racing HR's differ from training ones?
  • From what I've read, people try to run marathons at about 80% max HR until at least halfway and then ignore HR.

    Others run by feel, and most ignore HR in races. 

    I dont wear a HR strap in races as I feel it restricts my chest when breathing towards maximum effort. 
    Martyn - well done on the 10km PB especially as you are not 100%, hope that knee trouble clears soon.

    And that's a great run at your half marathon especially as you were running on sand and having to alter your pace due to other runners.

    You've not been reading your Hadd ;)    Hadd says as a general rule the best possible HR for a marathon will not be closer to max than 15-20 bpm without crashing or hitting the wall.

    There was a short thread on folk's HR in a marathon, I think the general consensus was 85-87% MHR for a marathon.   If runners are quoting 80% they may be referring to WHR (working heartrate) or just the first few miles.

    Iprice - heartrates will be generally higher in a race due to adrenaline and other race conditions.

    Right must go and find NorthEnder's race report :)
  • Cheers Shades
    yeah as I said, ' I think' lol
    happy to be corrected and it's not something I plan to do anytime soon. 
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers guys, I've the GNR coming up but trying to work out what kind of pace or HR I'll be going for.  I've tried a couple of simple ILTHR sessions with some okay HR results in terms of consistent pace and little drift.
  • Lots of time to train on for that then! 
    My half marathon pace is between 45 seconds and one min quicker than my 80% pace.
    i would be interested to see what the others pace is in comparison?
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Seven and half weeks, too close!
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    A couple of really silly question if I may, I've read quite a lot of the original HADD stuff but can't quite fathom out if ILTHR and Sub LT training are one and the same thing?  Also in terms of effort how hard should this be, I know when Jack Daniels talks about Threshold training he talks about comfortably hard or 8/10 effort or the type of pace you could hold for an hour, I take it with ILTHR or Sub LT we're talking about something of a lesser exertion than what Daniels describes?
    Iprice - using Hadd your ILTHR pace is defined by your HR.   Once you've achieved running 10 miles at base training rate with no cardiac drift then your first ILTHR runs will be done at base training HR + 10 bpm, (with a range of 5bpm) see the last couple of pages of Hadd's document.  It's not run at perceived effort.  When you do your Hadd tests at the various HR rates then you record how the effort at each HR feels and as you improve that perceived effort changes.

    LT pace is as you say the pace you can hold for roughly an hour.

    You need to find out your max HR, have you done a test yet?
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Threshold training is classic "tempo pace" ... sub LT and ILTHR would be classic "marathon pace", so quite a bit easier.

    Just before I did London, I did a proper lab-based lactate threshold test. It came out bang on my actual MP... but quite a bit below Hadd's recommended HR. That makes sense to me because I have always struggled with converting my 10K/HM times to marathon.

    I am in week 4 of my 16 week Chester build up and did my first MP/subLT session ... 10.6 miles yesterday at 7:48/m and 76% maxHR. This closely matched my pace and HR in the first 10 miles at London. Pre-London I would have considered that as too easy for sub-LT but I have changed my opinion on this now ... this is MY subLT, even if it doesn't agree with Hadd's %maxHR numbers. I believe I have been running my subLT and MP sessions too hard in the past and as a consequence I have probably been missing the optimal window for aerobic development.

    Anyway, a solid enough start despite a weekend away in Dublin (green=bike, red=run)...

  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers everyone, and no Shades still no race, wife works weekends now and struggle for babysitters, looks like the GNR will be my HR test.  I have tried a couple of quicker runs to experiment with pace and HR's had some interesting results but some a little odd!
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    SHADES said:
    LT pace is as you say the pace you can hold for roughly an hour.
    LT "lactate threshold" (aerobic threshold) pace is a good predictor of marathon pace, so hopefully you can hold that for much longer than an hour. It's the pace at your LTP "lactate turn point" (anaerobic threshold) which you can hold for roughly an hour ("tempo" pace). Here's a handy diagram from a lactate threshold test.


    16 miles on Sunday at 8:24/mi and the subLT number 2 today ... 10.6 miles at 7:59/mi at average 131 bpm, 72% maxHR. A tad slower than last week's 7:48/mi but at a 4% lower HR and absolutely no drift. I will stick with this for a couple of weeks and then think about working a bit harder.

    1.3 miles downhill to canal ...
    8:02/mi 122 bpm (av)/136 bpm (max)
    Then 8 x 1 miles on canal:
    7:55, 131(av)/135(max) bpm
    7:47, 131/135
    8:05, 132/139
    7:59, 131/137
    7:50, 131/134
    7:53, 130/133
    7:45, 132/135
    7:58, 132/136
    1.3 miles back up the hill from canal ... 
    8:25/mi 132/141

  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Great read Dr Dan and great stats, having done no racing before the GNR will be my first so am trying to work out what pace I'll be running at 
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    Those really are impressive stats DD
    edited July 2017
    Dr Dan - great training stats.    Very useful that you can do a run commute.

    Iprice -a half marathon is not a good choice for a chance to get close to MHR, it's too long a distance and by the time you get to the finish line you will probably be a bit tired and not able to push the HR up.

    As you haven't raced before I would definitely advise doing a shorter race as part of your GNR prep, say a 10km, that will give you an idea of how to pace the GNR. 

    Doing a test is not pleasant but can be done and dusted in less than 40 minutes, including warm up, avoid the treadmill and find a decent hill, or if you do a shorter race sprint like hell at the finish.   What odd readings have you had in previous attempts?
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    Iprice - I'd just run your GNR to feel and see what the HR trace looks like afterwards. There's nothing to gain at this stage by trying to run at particular HR. Start easy!

    - yes, that Thursday commute is very handy but it is also my hardest run of the week. Not sure why but it's always grim work getting home, even though I run it slowly. Much prefer my 4 days of bike commuting but just need that Thursday run-commute to get the mileage between "subLT/intervals Tuesday" and "parkrun Saturday".

  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers Dan and Shades, way things are going I'll not get in a race before the GNR so may try the hill method, I am a bit of a sadist like so will probably enjoy it lol.  Odd readings comment related to two runs I did experimenting with ILTHR, same distance on both, first one felt absolutely great but HR was much higher than what I thought, second one I struggled with even though it was slower than first by and the HR ended up being much lower even though the effort was more considerable.  Was struggling to make out what the actual anomaly was.
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    How's the training folks?

    I am now in week 6 of 16 in the Chester build-up. Last Sunday was 18 miles at 8:18/mi and 71% maxHR. Then today was my subLT/MP session...

    1.3 miles downhill to canal ... then 8 x 1 miles on canal:
    1, 7:49, 134/139 bpm (average/max)
    2, 7:38, 136/139
    3, 7:58, 135/139
    4, 7:56, 134/139
    5, 7:43, 133/137
    6, 7:50, 131/135
    7, 7:43, 134/136
    8, 7:54, 134/139
    ... then 1.3 miles back up the hill.

    10.6 miles over-all, at 7:51/mi and 73.5% maxHR.

    Mileage has been gradually building up but I will cut back this week by dropping the Thurs run commute and Friday bike commute. I could do with a rest as you can see below ... and I'll hopefully have fresh legs for parkrun as a side-effect.

  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    They look great figures to me Dan.

    I'm sort of off Hadd at the moment, even though still keeping to low HR.  Got an ultra on Saturday... then will decide whether to do Chester... and how best to prepare for it. Might see you there.

  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    Good work everyone. I've been kinda off the grid for a while - no good excuse, really, unfortunately. 

    Dan, I think you may have mentioned this before, but why is your SubLT run at 73%? Surely you could run 3x20 minutes or 4x15 at 80%, then building from there? There are huge benefits from doing this! 

    I've been busy running the last several weeks, still averaging about 53 mpw, at about 8:30/m at 68%. Following the half marathon in Manchester at the end of May, I did two 10 miles SubLTs @ 82.5% / 159bpm. The next week I raced a 5k - at 20:10, a PB, but nonetheless, disappointing, as in the half marathon I had achieved four back-to-back 5ks averaging 21:20 each. The following week my club held a track championship, in which I only entered the longest distance race, 1500m, coming in 6th at 5:45. Last week I did my first SubLT at 85%, 2x20 minutes + 1 mile (all I had time for!). Yesterday, I forged on with 3x20 mins @ 85%, averaging 6:45 for the work sections, slowing down though on the last one due to exponentially increasing thirst and dehydration. Easy pace is getting faster. 
  • Nice work <b>Sol</b>! What paces have your subLT runs come out at?

    80% would not be subLT for me! I had a proper lab-based lactate threshold test done before London and my LT pace was 8 min/mile. This was backed up my my marathon being run at 8:01/mi. So running at 80% would be way over my LT, despite what hadd says. I think this is a mistake i have been making for several years!
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Nice work Sol! What paces have your subLT runs come out at?

    80% would not be subLT for me! I had a proper lab-based lactate threshold test done before London and my LT pace was 8 min/mile. This was backed up my my marathon being run at 8:01/mi. So running at 80% would be way over my LT, despite what hadd says. I think this is a mistake i have been making for several years!
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Yep ... logged in on my phone for the first time and it created a new me (or reactivated and old me). Back on my PC now where I feel more comfortable! :D
  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    Double Dan, LOL! 

    When I was running at 80% the pace was around 7:25/m (easy pace - ~68% - around 8:50). At 82.5% the pace was around 7:05/m (easy pace 8:40).  As I mentioned, 85% is currently around 6:45/m (easy pace is now 8:30). 

    Dan, surely you can't run a marathon at your LT pace. Half marathon pace should be just slower than true LT. 

    What's was your HR at 8/m at LT? 
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    You are mixing up lactate threshold and lactate turn point (tempo). See my posts above.

    Nice paces by the way!
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