HADD Training Method



  • Dr Dan, nice sub lt run there consistent pacing and a flat HR

    BeDe, nice to be back, and I kinda use the same methodology, trying to keep a 75% lid on HR but run to what feels like an easy pace, usually in the 10mm range

    Andi, Roy race number 570

    Johnny, nice sub 70 run

    Carter, nice fell running hope the legs are not too battered, LN is 2 weeks and 6 days awayimage, just entering the tapering phase and I'm already wondering about the types of runs and there intensity during the next week or so

    Easy run planned for tonight 5 or 6 miler

  • Carter, sounds like you 'enjoy' my kind of running? I run so I can carry on drinking and smoking lol. Keep at it and am sure the 'changes' will come soon enough image

    Txs Stewart, I might be the guy with half a dozen race numbers written on his arm as I seem to be collecting them lol. As for tapering, I'm not sure what to do either so (currently) planning on 30-35 miles this week including a 12 mile LSR at the weekend then 20-25 next week (with an 8 mile LSR) and 3-4 4 milers in the final week and maybe a couple of mile jog after I check-in on Saturday (if I can remember where I booked!). As for pace, I'm a lot slower than you so plan on running all my shorter runs around Marathon Pace (11:16).

    5 Miles today, was nice and sunny. I was worried about last weeks knee pain but it seemed ok however, suffered sharp pain down the front of my right shin image Averaged 10:55mm's and 69%. After LN am going to be harder with myself and stick a 75% MAX HR on my runs even if/when it means walking the hilly bits. 

  • Carter - suffered a fractured vertebrae (T7 on spine) in April so I was unable to run for 12 weeks. So I started training again beginning August and my first phase back to full recovery was to stick at less than 70% for about 6 weeks and keeping mileage low. Next stage is to increase pace slightly whilst increasing mileage (very slowly), my 70% runs were at a slower pace than my 5K+3mins pace (due to injury and loss of fitness). So by running at my 5K+3min pace I can establish an average HR for that pace. Then by keeping at that same pace on every run I will be able to monitor my HR over this next period. No target as such but I would like to see a reduction in HR to below 75% at that pace - as mentioned at present it is 77%.

  • Dan, nice and smooth pace HR I am not envious honest.

    BeDe, thanks


    This week will reduce millage by 20% at all HR,s

    Same again the following week,

    Might not even get out of bed the week of LN. There is a Parkrun on the Saturday before, I believe, so will do that nice and slowly.

    Stewart / Andi will look out for you both for sure.



  • Johhny, am hoping this is correct - don't want to see you coming back to me after 6 months lol.

    'Joe', was told to get up to 50+ weekly miles before doing the 2400 test at the given bpm's. The percentages shown here are not exact but they seem pretty good to me (maybe they were meant to be increments of 5bpm from either 70 or 75? anybody else done the 2400 test with corrected percentages from 'Joe'?)


     Hadd also showed a 3 week portion of Joe's training and have given his HR%...


     Hope this helps Johnny (and of course, is accurate).


  • Dr. Dan, beautiful extended tempo run! You nailed it.

    I got a 20 miler in on Sunday. Knee did not blow up (which obviously is a good thing!). I hadn't done more than 14 miles in about (...looking this up now...SH*T, 8 weeks!!image). But, on the bright side I accomplished a lot in this run. First, I did itimage. Second, I ran strong till the end (no bonking). Third, I felt a bit of the late stage marathon fatigue on this run but was able to push through it (last 7 miles run at 80% effort...last mile capped at 7:12 m/m). So I now have until Oct. 13th to get my act together. Have another 20 miler planned a week from this coming Sunday (then have to start my taper (which will be a fairly aggressive one). My fitness is coming back, but will I get enough for a 3:15 effort? Probably not but this is better than being shelved.

  • Stewart - re tapering, you should be looking to taper for 3 weeks for a marathon and during this phase reduce your mileage by about 25% each week. For any speed sessions you do you should keep up the intensity though. However, I have yet to reach the taper for a marathong so I do not speak from experience !

    Andi - Your planned taper sounds about right. I notice that you didnt mention any speed sessions though ?

    BeDe - Ouch ! Good to hear you are back on the road to recovery. Is this 5k + 3 mins part of HADD ?

    VT - nice long run from you. Which marathon are your running ? What is your current PB ?

  • Carter - the 5K+3min pace is mentioned in HADD as one way to start the training if you struggle to keep a decent pace trying to keep the HR down below 75%. Also initially keeping below 75% can be a struggle for some so it is suggested as an alternative and your average HR will then drop for the same pace. I won't be racing until next year so this gives me thechance to really go for a decent re-build of base fitness.

  • BeDe - good news on the comeback!image

    Andi - refuelling ... a good start to taper!image
    I've never done the Hadd test.

    carter ... patience! Improvement is gradual and not linear.image

    VT - nice progressive 20 miler. Are you going for the "reduced volume but some high intensity" taper strategy?

    I still have DOMS from Sunday's run. Didn't have time to explain the strategy of that one when I posted the stats above ... it wasn't really supposed to be a sub-LT session but more of a test of what raceMP might me. I'd done 4 consecutive 20 mile LSRs on the previous 4 Sundays and didn't fancy another 3+ hour run. So, I set out at 77/78% maxHR and attempted to keep to that for 10M and then see what happened. I think this was a good HR zone for me ... definitely below LT and much more comfortable than 82/83%. I have some work to do before I could contemplate running a marathon in that zone. I was working away from home yesterday, so didn't run but will get out for some recovery pace today. Lake Vyrnwy HM on Sunday, so it will be an easy week with, perhaps, some short sections of HM pace work if/when my legs recover).

  • DrDan - thx. Was going to do Lake Vyrnwy but can'timage

    Anyone who's interested, below are my pace and avgHR for my last half in March.



  • aaargh - you go on hols for 3 weeks and some clown deletes our thread image

    Same happened to our coveted sub 3:30 thread. We got it back by e-mailing runnersworld and they now stuck it on top of the Spring Marathon forum image

    Will try to read back but not sure I have time image

    I seem to have lost all speed and fitness on hols image  I ran 4 times but mainly mountain biked and climbed some rocks. The latter gave me DOMS like I never experienced before. I felt worse than after any marathon I've ever done. And I fear I picked up some bug - at least I hope coz that would explain why 9:10mm this morning felt like serious hard work image. Throat is sore, resting HR is up and I just feel a bit odd. Fingers crossed it goes away.

    BeDe: looks like you are on the comeback trail image

  • Chick, it is still around, just not visible on the training forum. The RW goblin has been at work, so unlikely it will ever be seen in the forum properly again! image

    This gets to it


  • VT, sounds like a productive 20 miler for you image Can't comment on the 3:15 - too fast to comprehend for my (slow) brain.

    Txs Carter, but nope, no 'speed' sessions as such as I've not done any in training and now would be a bad time to startimage

    Dr.Dan, glad you approve of my choice of greasy refuelling but doubt you'd recommend running with a hangover (at 4pm) like today image 4 consecutive 20 milers sounds tough! the Half will be a breeze for you am sure.

    BeDe, always enjoy looking at graphs (yup, am sad). Interesting to see you started slow(ish) then speed up, am guessing it was a hilly start and downhill finish?

    welcome back Chick! hope you didn't pick up a bug and am sure you'll be back to pre holiday fitness soon. I did an indoor climbing session with a friend who is quite good at it - never have I had so much pain in my fingers and struggled to type for days.

    Another 5 miles today, well, 5.2 cos I forgot to turn round. 10:43 min/miles but AHR was back up to 74%. No knee/shin pain today so fingers crossed. Am quite enjoying these (slightly) shorter runs at about 1 min mile faster than normal and 30 secs faster then plannedMP.

  • 30 Mins at AVG of 70%MaxHR this morning. Quite surprised that I got up to 2.75 miles. I realised that if my mind wanders during running and I start thinking about races my HR goes way up!


    thanks so much for those conversions of Joe's HRs. I'm a little puzzled though. They all seem very high. I thought aerobic training was under about 75%MAXHR. The bulk of Joe's runs are much higher. Why is this?
  • Johnny, mp, it helped me a bit as well and, yes, they do seem high (just grabbed from his thread - he doesn't have many charts). Maybe some of our more seasoned HADDers will help here.

    You might also want to read this thread written by a 'Friend' of John Walsh (never knew his real name till yesterday), it goes into a bit more detail and also some phase 2 stuff - sounds brutal and leaves the HRM aside. Hadd isn't just about slow running.

    I've 'played' with HADD for a while now and only just doing things properly. After my Marathon at the end of the month will take a break then build back up to 50 miles/week and have a go at the 2400 test.

    My problem with this method of training is I don't have any nearby flat areas to run and looking at a treadmill for tests/inclement weather/ repeatable timed runs. On the road/trail I'll also be capping my MAX HR which I currently let rise to 85% on the steeper hills then struggle to lower the average on descent and ignore pace (if I can).


  • Carter, this will be my 2nd marathon...the Green Mountain Marathon here in Vermont. First time out I ran a 3:30. The goal for this year was to break 3:15 and qualify for Boston...but after lots of great training got hurt and now am must looking to do something with the fitness still banked away.

    Dr. Dan, wow, I'm surprised you didn't fall apart with so many straight week so 20 milers. I would be dust after that. I'm going to get as much quality in as I can before race day. Really, I'm just shooting for one long effort (with some progressive action if I feel up to it), a couple of 90+ min runs (one at sub-LT), and maybe one or two recovery type efforts. But I'm keeping my mileage under 55 miles as beyond that I keep getting hurt.

    Today I had a really nice 11 mile run. 1st half done at 8:30ish pace and second half at 8:00 pace. Felt strong and fresh after. Really wish I could tack on another 4 weeks of training...

  • Chick! Good to hear from you. Glad the vaca was good; sorry to hear the engine isn't running so smoothly. Just remember that your break was good for your mind and body. You'll quickly get it all back (and then some). And  yes, rock climbing can lead to some serious soreness.

  • Chick - thx. Yes back on the road to recovery - is's an even slower process than when I first started HADDingimage. Take it easy.

    Andi - no the HM was at Silverstone race track so really flat - it's just I planned it that way - did get a PB but lost out on 2hrs by 3 seconds!!! If I'd only started quickerimage ha (that will be on my gravestone "IF ONLY").

    VT - hope you are recovering - perhaps we all have our individual 'limits' where mileage is concerned. For an old fart like me I'm just happy to be out thereimage

  • VT ... I did experience a big drop-off in quality as I went through the 4 long runs. First two were 20.3M flat miles and I put in some harder effort in the final miles ... but the 3rd one (19.5M) was slow and I couldn't have picked up the pace at the end (hilly and I was on holiday, away from home) ... the final 22.3M flat run was slow and I still bonked at 19M (but it was fatigue/fuelling, rather than injury). So, not sure I'd recommend it. However, I cut back to 33 miles last week (albeit 26 of them were sub-LT miles) and I seem to still be in one piece. So, hopefully, those long runs will pay dividends later.


    Andi McGill 2 wrote (see)

    Johnny, mp, it helped me a bit as well and, yes, they do seem high (just grabbed from his thread - he doesn't have many charts). Maybe some of our more seasoned HADDers will help here. 

    Anything that is sub-LT is aerobic ... "Joe's" Tues and Thursday runs were his sub-LT days but everything else was still aerobic. If it were me, all the rest would be sub-70% maxHR ... and indeed that's basically what HADD suggests at the end of his "document". However, quite a few of the fetchie HADDers do their easy running at 75%. In theory, it doesn't matter, so long as it's below LT ... the problem is that you need to be robust enough to take the high mileage and the higher %HRs. I guess "Joe" (being a 2:30ish marathon runner) was very robust and, if his LT was at 83%, then he could cope with more 75-80% running than me.


    Andi McGill 2 wrote (see)

    Dr.Dan, glad you approve of my choice of greasy refuelling but doubt you'd recommend running with a hangover (at 4pm) like today image 4 consecutive 20 milers sounds tough! the Half will be a breeze for you am sure.

    I wouldn't recommend hangover running ... or smoking for that matter!image

    Hmmmm. not sure the HM will be a breeze at allimage... very different running at HM pace compared to marathon pace. My HM PB was run at 88% maxHR but the thought of maintaining that over 13 miles is pretty daunting right now. My eye is on 26.2 and so I haven't done enough speed-work for 13.1 ... so I suspect I will only be able to run at about 85% maxHR as a result. Last year at the same HM, with similar mara-based training, I maintained 7:05 pace for 10M but then died off badley in the final 5K (7:12/m over all). I really think HM training needs a good dose of 10K pace and faster ... for example, my HM PB was 6:53/m, coming off a 10K PB at 6:26/m 2 months earlier.





  • Wow thread has moved fast, so sorry if I don't catch up much...

    Chick welcome backimage

    Carter Frankfurt is in 7 weeks' time - so this and three more hard weeks, then taper.

    Johnny the stuff Andi posted was the schedules to get Joe from 50 to 70+ mpw - as DD says, that's 2 x subLTs at 80%-83%, plus most other runs at 75%.  If you're on a lower mileage, and are not quite as elite as Joe, then most of your runs need to be in the 70-75% range.image

    Big day for me, today's subLT: It came out as 7:28mm !! image I'm so happy I'll bore you with the stats...(HR figures are average for mile split / peak for mile split / avg.%))

    1) 1m - 7:43(7:43/m) 150/158bpm (70%)

    2) 1m - 7:31(7:31/m) 160/165bpm (75%)

    3) 1m - 7:31(7:31/m) 162/166bpm (76%)

    4) 1m - 7:19(7:19/m) 163/169bpm (77%)

    5) 1m - 7:27(7:27/m) 165/171bpm (78%)

    6) 1m - 7:38(7:38/m) 168/174bpm (79%)

    7) 1m - 7:22(7:22/m) 171/177bpm (81%)

    8) 1m - 7:28(7:28/m) 172/178bpm (81%)

    9) 1m - 7:22(7:22/m) 174/178bpm (82%)

    10)1m - 7:16(7:15/m) 172/177bpm (81%) 

    so levelling out at 81% rather than my usual 83%.  Could I hold that for another 16m?  Nopeimageimage

  • Nice pace Teknik!image 

    At this stage, HADD's 81-83% 10M sub-LT sessions are still "ideal MP" rather than "realistic MP" for me. I intend to run at the pace equivalent to what I see at 77/78% maxHR  during a 10M run ... l expect that just maintaining that pace between 10-20M will see HR rise into the low 80s. Then it's a case of hoping there's enough left for the final 10K. 

  • Afternoon all.

    Chick - welcome back !

    Andi - glad to here you are running pain free. I, too, live in an area where it is quite hilly and makes HADDing quite tough. As such, I have started running at lunchtime as I work in a less flat part of the world. Has the tapering involved much more eating and drinking copious amounts ??

    VT - a good run from you. Hopefully, you will hit the start line feeling in great form and qualify for Boston.

    Dr.Dan - I have just checked my first ever HM last November and I actually wore my HRM for it and I averaged 91.4% of my MHR. I have since knocked 9 minutes off my PB but I wasnt wearing my monitor so cant compare my heart rates. I have also checked a different run where I did wear it (I wasn't HADDing at the time) and I have compared it to todays run. For a very similar pace I am 8 bpm better than I was this time last year. These of course mean nothing in isolation but I guess it's an indicator of how I have improved in my first year of running.

    Teknik - a speedy run from you there. Is 7:28 about your target marathon pace then ?

    A question for you. I have been looking at my stats since I started HADDing 5 weeks ago and am not sure if I am actually using the correct figures. I'm assuming most of you have a Garmin or your devices record both average pace and average moving pace. Which of these figures are you using to measure your progress ? I ask as, today, there was 20 seconds per mile difference between those two figures. Cheers


  • 91.4% for a HMimage ... are you underestimating your maxHR? I clocked 92% maxHR on my 10K PB ... and I was ready to die on the line, never mind do another 7 miles!image

  • catching up...

    VT well done on the 20 miler - strong finish too

    DD I see what you were doing with that 10 mile high 70s run.  I too am struggling with the belief that I can hold a subLT pace without blowing up...although if I get some prints below 7:24 I might be temptedimage

    BeDe I love your graphsimage

    Chick that does sound like a bug (resting HR is my key indicator)

    Andi glad the knee/shin pain is over

    Carter I usually manually stop the watch if I stop - I guess that's the same as auto-stop, so use moving pace? As for the HalfM HR, I share DD's image...I don't average that high in a 5k!

  • VT, when is Vermont again? (it's an age thing lol) Taper time then? Am sure your banked miles can/will all be drawn on to get you the best time you can image Sounds like a solid 11 miler - my (current) fastest mile is 7:46 hehe

    BeDe, ouch at the 3 seconds however, when your back to full fitness 3 seconds 'should' be an easy target image

    Dr.Dan, am sure your right and coming out of the past few weeks without injury will surely stand you in good stead! Your clarification of the HADD doc makes sense - am looking forward to some proper HADDing come mid/late October.

    Yup, need to do something about the smoking, apart from anything else it's blooming expensive!

    Hehe, calling a HM a 'breeze' was probably the wrong choice of word image

    Teknik, hey, with results like that I'd probably take an ad in the paper image I noticed that other than mile 1 your split avg/max HR diff stayed within 6bpm - something I need to concentrate on as mine can be 18-20bpm! And txs, seem pain free again now.

    Carter, good call running from work as it's flatter, sadly I work from home so it's no different lol. as for food, am trying to be good for a few weeks. I must remember to turn auto pause off for the Marathon, I use it when I step off the road for a car cos I have forgotten to start it again on more than one occaision. as others have said, that seems a high AHR - must put you in the elite bracketimage

    Another 5 miles today sub (planned)MP and managed 10:43 (33 secs/mile faster) @75% AHR. Looking back on my runs it seems when I wear a hat and jacket my AHR is higher, something to do with overheating maybe? I wear glasses and a baseball cap helps keep them dryish so might try one of those visors.

  • Thanks Teknik and Dr Dan, I'm getting there.

    So in essence is this the base approach for a beginner HADDer

    Stage 1 Keep it to low aerobic HR%s 60-70%

    Stage 2 As milage comes up start adding to HR%s up towards 75-80%

    Stage 3 Add in a couple of runs up around the 85% mark (Sub LT)
  • Johnny I think it's more like

    1. Get as much running done as you can at the faster of (a) 5k +3mins and (b) 75%max.

    2. As the mileage comes up, use the 75%max as a ceiling (not an average for the run).  Allow yourself a day or two at 70%max (ceiling) as a recovery.

    3.  Once you've had a few weeks at 50m+, introduce one subLT run.  Start at 80%max (ceiling), build this run to 10 miles (maybe as per page 2 of the last link DD posted on the top of the thread).  Once you can run even splits with no rise in HR above 80%, notch the run up to 81% or 82%, and so on.  You might get to 85%, you might not.

    4.  Add another subLT run, either as the finish of the long run or on its own.  Perhaps make this a shorter or lower HR version of the first one.  Make sure there are easy days (plural) between the 2 hard sessions.

    Alternate views cordially invited...image

  • Morning all.

    I think I need to take a maximum heart rate test again based on your feedback, thanks. Although Andi may be right to put me in the elite bracket image

    Point 3 of Teknik's last post says 50+m weeks. At the moment I am only able to run about half that amount while trying to get my knee stronger. Any thought's on the usefulness/benefits of HADDing while doing such a low amount of mileage ?

  • Carter - it works even with the mileage you are doing. I was between 25-30 miles a week most of the time (apart from the beginning). All it means is that it takes longer to get the results image.

    Andi - 3 seconds is probably the length of my house!! image ha

    Johnny - great advice from Teknik, the initial phase is very important. You have to squeeze from the bottom of the tube.

  • Great summary Teknik.image

    But yes, I agree that 50M per week is not necessary to start getting benefits from sub-LT work. Hadd dealt with high-level athletes, so 50 mpw in that context was the equivalent of saying "get in some basic low level training". I've averaged about 40 mpw over the past 11 weeks (only 3 of those were above 50) and have still really benefitted from the sub-LT sessions. Running at sub-LT can be introduced gradually... see Hadds post here:


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