HADD Training Method



  • Brilliant stuff. Thanks so much for all the feedback and advice. Very, very useful.

    I have a few races coming up but I'm going to treat them as all part of the bigger base training picture I think and make a proper attempt at sensibly attacking a marathon next year.

    60mins at Sub75% today. Most of it sub 70%. Hilly route which made things tricky - so much easier to lock in those HRs on the flat.
  • Andi well done on the 5 miler - what I wear definitely affects my stats, too. Stay coolimage

    Carter - like BeDe said - it will just take longer.  You will be amazed at how much extra miles you can safely stack on without injury (which is why I prefer leaving the subLTs until you've ramped up more).  I think StewartC is a good example of Hadd transforming your achievable mileage...

    DD good postimage

    Johnny good run today - I must admit I avoid the hills until later on in a campaign when I'm fitter

    I had a tough run this morning.  I have a race on Sunday, so I had to do my long run today.  Legs heavy from yesterday's subLT, weather cold and drizzly, but I bagged another 20 miler (#6).image


  • image20M after a subLT is more bang for the buck ... that should have trained some deep down muscles fibres, which will pay dividends in the last 10K in Frankfurt!image

  • Hi guys, still nothing to report as still feeling rotten image  Mr. Chick has started with similar symptoms so I guess we picked up some bug or other.

    I wish I could contribute to HM HR stats - but I never wear the monitor when I race. I always feel constricted by it. Bet it's all in the mind but I rather race without image.

    Tek: super running from you lately. First that superb sub LT sesh yesterday and now another 20 image. How many more till Frankfurt? And do you already have a target time figured out?

    Johnny2323 wrote (see)
    30 Mins at AVG of 70%MaxHR this morning. Quite surprised that I got up to 2.75 miles. I realised that if my mind wanders during running and I start thinking about races my HR goes way up!

    haha, I noticed that too! I'm very excitable image

    VTrunner wrote (see)

    Carter, this will be my 2nd marathon...the Green Mountain Marathon here in Vermont. First time out I ran a 3:30. The goal for this year was to break 3:15 and qualify for Boston...but after lots of great training got hurt and now am must looking to do something with the fitness still banked away. 

    VT: your paces are much faster than mine and I'm aiming for a sub 3:15 in spring. I'm sure you can run faster. BTW, I registered for Boston on Monday and got my confirmation e-mail yesterday image. I wish I could go out and run now image


    Dr.Dan wrote (see)

    At this stage, HADD's 81-83% 10M sub-LT sessions are still "ideal MP" rather than "realistic MP" for me. I intend to run at the pace equivalent to what I see at 77/78% maxHR  during a 10M run ... l expect that just maintaining that pace between 10-20M will see HR rise into the low 80s. Then it's a case of hoping there's enough left for the final 10K. 

    sounds like a perfect plan and pretty much what I would do if I were fit image

  • Dr. Dan,

     I think all  those successive 20 milers have to pay out for you. No question (think of all the great aerobic adaptation that had to occur beyond the 1 hr 30 min mark!). The fact that you didn't get hurt means (in my opinion) that you may have gotten darn luckyimage. So kudos to you for taking the risk as I'm sure you'll reap from it. Also, I really liked your strategy for HR/effort for the upcoming race. I think I might shoot for starting at 75% and see what pace that translates as...then just go with it after 10 miles.

    Tek, great sub-LT...that looks to be a solid 20 sec improvement over many of those you have posted. A gear shift sightingimage! Awesome. Also, the 20 miles following the Sub-LT does indeed ensure you'll hit those deep, deep slow twitchers that you'll need at the end of the race.

    Andi, Vermont is in the very northeastern corner for the US.

    Nothing new to report here. Have a new tendonitis on the inner shin, but my PT thinks I can probably just push through. There always seems to be something this year.

     BTW Chick, congrats on getting a bib! You rock.


  • Vt  Dr Dan,

    the last 2 months I have been using the parkruns as a pace for the start of the marathon and have found out that if I run at 75% it equates to 24.50 exactly what I need in the marathon, and nowhere near my LT so that's what I am going for. 

    Vt parkruns are 5k races

  • chick - exciting stuff! You'll be bankrupt by the entry fee but the memories will live long. image

    Roy - good plan but be aware that the first few miles can be deceptive for pace/HR ratios. Try 75% out over 15ish miles and see what turns out.

    VT - please don't get another injury!imageimage

    5.3 miles easy today ... with a 15 minute chat break half way when I bumped into a former student I hadn't seen in ages.

  • Johnny, Teknik summed it up nicely. After my Marathon I'm going to try the 'ceiling' approach and start at 75% else I'd be walking half the time, flat areas are at a premium round here image Dr.Dan's link is a good way to build up the faster paced runs - a bit like the later stages of C25K. Well done on your run, the hills will repay you plenty in the end (well, thats what I'm hoping lol). Something I do is I (currently) set my ceiling at 80% on the hills and if I hit it then force myself to walk until it drops to 70-75% and am 'slowly' managing to keep running and lower my heart rate a little (I say running but it's a loose term).

    Carter, as many have said, 50+ is really a benchmark - thought you were an elite already image 

    BeDe, lol at the length of your house, mine is about 1.5 seconds. I'm starting to appreciate this whole time/distance thing even though my mile splits can vary by (at least) a couple of minutes on longer runs (I put it down to the terrain mind).

    Txs Teknik, and yup, I need to man up as it's really mild here. I wear glasses so need a hat in the rain - I should go out with just 1 bit of data on the screen as if I squint I can almost make out what it says image

    Jeez, your flying! a lot of hard work going on, the mile bank of Teknik will be paying large dividends for you image

    Mr and Mrs Chick, hope you both get over this soon and it's nothing serious image

    Lol VT, thanks for the geography tip but you misread, I asked when not where imageHope you can run through the tendonitis! I have it in my reght elbow and possibly had it in my right knee. Somebody gave me some Arnica Gel and it eases the pain (for me).

    Roy, 24image* mins for a 5k @75% would be a dream time for me. Do you warm up before the run? As Dr.Dan says, HR can take a while to rise so squew the early mileage AHR.

    Dr.Dan, hope it wasn't a litteral bumping into? and, mind if I ask, a real Dr then? of?

    Planned 5 miler didn't happen today, a friend of mine has her first photographic exhibition starting tomorrow and spent all day running around trying to sort stuff out. At 6.30pm the prints had still not all been framed so tomorrow will be even busier. Just got a 5 and 12 miler left for this week so hoping for some time over the weekend but Sunday I'll be down on the beach shooting a Babtism.




  • Thanks Andi

    I may well be opening a can of worms here and it is obviously not going to apply to me for a while yet but:

    How do you calculate your Lactate Threshold?
  • Morning all.

    So, following on from your feedback about my MHR and whether I had got it right or not, I have done another test this morning. Firstly, I did my normal 5 miles @ 71.4%. Straight after, I did my test by running up a hill that is about 300 yards long and must have an average gradient of about 8%. I ran up as fast as I could 3 times and inbetween I jogged back down. My highest recorded heart rate was 173 compared to this time last year when I measured it at 175. Do you think 173 can now be used as my MHR ?

  • Andi - I'm an academic scientist (research & teaching).
     ... "shooting a Babtism". What's that all about then? Guns? Babes? Beaches?

    Johnny ... only real way is via blood measurements ... but HR- and pace-based methods are easier.

    carterusm ... hard to know, as getting the last bit out of the tube is really hard. If you go too hard, too early, then you're knackered before the HR gets to the higher levels. To be honest, I expected your maxHR to be higher based on your high HM average HR. Do you have 5K and 10K avHRs?

  • Andi - I'm now picturing you living on Craggy Island with Father Ted !!

    Dr.Dan - no, I haven't. My MHR of 175 from last year was based on a 5k effort though. Is it worth doing another one of those ? I'm not sure which is the best way to measure it, by doing hill reps or a 5k.

  • Hmmmm, Smoking/Drinking/Craggy Island/ Living with Fr Ted... it's Father Jack!image

    carterusm - I busted a gut in my last 5K and only maxed at 170 bpm (my max is 175 bpm). The one before that maxed at 169. Both averaged at 91-92% maxHR. I think you hit high intensity too quickly in a 5K race. You need a gradual build up to get just over LT, before doing the big hill reps. My guess is that your max is probably nearer 180 bpm but probably not worth flogging yourself again. image

  • BeDe how are the 5k+3 runs going so far?

    Dr Dan thanks, and nice easy run yesterday

    Johnny a good hour in the hills - well done for keeping the HR in check.  As DD implied, the Hadd approach estimates LT by tracking when you get drift at a constant pace - the drift is a sign of rising lactate, thus the insistence that the subLTs are run at a constant pace and flat HR - no drift means you're under LT, so notch it up 1% next time and test again...

    Chick thanks I've got 3 more - then 3 weeks of taper.  The original plan was 3:30 in the Spring and 3:15 (GFA) in FFT.  I cocked up Milton Keynes (flu), and was ready to settle on a 3:30 in FFT, but that last subLT  has made me think (egged on by Mace) about a tilt at 3:15.  Great news on Bostonimage, and wishing you and Mr Chick a speedy recovery

    VT thanks, but oh no, not another niggle !image  Hope that eases quickly

    Roy nice goal time for your maraimage

    Andi hope the photo exhibition is going ok, and good luck with the week's remaining runsimage

    Carter I reckon my Parkrun sprint finish is about 5 beats under Max (as I'm knackered by then)

    4m recovery jog for me today - went off too fast downhill while my heart was asleep, then struggled to keep it under 70% back uphill...

  • Teknik - still at 77% - but I'm wary of doing too much close to the 80% mark so keeping mileage down at the moment. Must say though that the pace at this stage 'feels' better.

  • Dr Dan,

         I am looking at working between 83-85% ave over the marathon so 75% was only going to be for the first 5k.

    Thanks, but you did get me thinking about  " ideal mp " and " realistic mp " .

    that happened earlier this year in a half marathon 3 mins down on what I expected, so hopefully lessons learned.

    Andi w/up about 5 mins  just to get HR to where I want it to be.


  • Good luck Roy! 83-85% would destroy me somewhere between 15 and 20 miles!


    Well, Tek and Dr. Dan had such great subLTs...it must have been contagious. I ran one on Thursday (was upper 90s humidity) and it was 10 miles (between a warm up and cool down mile) and my effort was very relaxed and comfy. I blew out the carbon on the last of the subLT miles but it was good. My subLTs are done on hilly routes (I just don't have a flat area to do these on...so the last 3 miles were up, up, and up). Followed The subLT with an 8 miler @70% and 8:15 ave so I'm gathering in the lost fitness. Today is a rest day as I'm feeling a bit beat up. The niggle is still there and I have a feeling I'm just going to train through this one (my gut says it won't blow up...knock on wood).

    And for the record, I'm running about 45-50 mpw lately (and I definitely benefit from subLTs). I've been doing 4 days on and 3 days off (so cutting out some of the recovery miles for pure rest).

    The stats:




  • BeDe good going - sounds promisingimage

    Roy I'm hoping to keep below 83% until the half way - last time I stuck to 80% up to mile 14, then drifted to 94% by the end, so am aiming to up the intensity a little this time.

    VT fabulous subLT - nice stats !image  Fingers crossed the rest day sorts the niggle out.

    DD hope you don't get blown away tomorrow at Lake Vyrnwy

    9m with the club this morning, nothing much to report.  5m road race tomorrow - my first, so an easy PBimage


    Dr Dan, all the best for tomorrow would like to have run Lake Vyrnwy.


    feeling a bit apprehensive at the mo, will try to be conservative with the HR at LN, for the first half.

    10 mile trail race tomorrow, hopefully shake off some nerves!

    BeDe, looking good.

  • MP Johnny, Dr.Dan and Teknik answered your LT Q better than I couldimage  I'm yet to do a (proper) subLT run but plan on seeing how 80-83% goes to beging with - currently I can sense when my HR is above that and obviously need to work on stamina at higher HR's.

    Carter, as others have said, I'd guess your MAX HR might be higher and maybe the way you conducted your test stopped you going higher? I did read that your MAX HR might drop 1-2BPM each year as you get older but not sure image

    Dr.Dan, sounds like an interesting career image and lol but no, should have said I was 'shooting' with my camera.

    Teknik, thanks for asking, last night was the opening of the Exhibition. It was a long day preparing the room but worth it for the first night with drinks/nibbles. Natalya (my friend) sold 2 prints and is donating all profit to our Charity so a good start. My biggest fear was driving £1,500 worth of framed prints the 4 pot hole ridden single track miles to Glengorm Castle on riday 13th.

    As you live in a hilly area you (and others might be able to help?) Currently I try to keep my HR below 75% and still slow right down on hills even though I let it rise to 80% on hills. I know the correct way to 'HADD' is to keep a constant HR & Pace and also that HADD allows the HR to go up a few BPM on hills but my HR will 'drift' maybe 10%/20BPM on inclines. I really want to do this HADDing lark properly when I start again in October.

    BeDe, good to hear you can feel improvements, your going about this in the right way image

    Roy, thanks for the info and my (current) plan for LN is to try and keep my HR lowish until Dores (75% aHR would be good). There are a couple of sneaky hills in the first 6 miles but the 7 miles before Dores seems flat so providing I don't push things am hoping to have enough energy to crack the final 2 hills then its just 4-5 miles to go image 

    I know I'm in taper now but might do a couple of planned short runsas hill repeats into/out of Tobermory as the hill is pretty steep and need to do some more downhill work (but will keep it lightish).

    VT, fingers crossed with the niggle and your subLT stats look impressive, don't be getting injured now!

    Dr.Dan, Carter, lol but no, nothing like Craggy Island here, tis a bustling island with almost 3,000 people! However, I do shout 'Drink' a little too much. What gets my goat here (or should it be sheep) is that when tourists get off the boat they leave their brains on it and driving through Tobermory is dangerous to say the least as they seem to think the road has been pedestrianised (so use the term 'Feck' quite often too).

    5 miles today at 10:10 pace which is HM pace AND I just noticed its also my best (training) 10k pace so need to do another 10k run soon.


  • Roy an easy first half is always a sensible strategyimage. How was the trail race?

    Andi LOLimage.  I don't live in a hilly area but the advice I've seen is that letting yourself rise to about 80% is ok so long as the HR falls again - the ability to recover to below 75% whilst running, once the climb is over, is an important sign of fitness.  Boredom permitting, I'd do the same route once a week to compare stats - the spikes in HR uphill should start softening over timeimage


    5m road race for me - I just clung on to a sub 34" with splits of 6:42 6:44 6:50 7:16 6:26 (6:47 avg).  HR hit 95% in the sprint finishimage. I might regret this tomorrow...

  • Teknik,

       I think I got carried away chasing a club mate, swopping and changing position throughout the race ( never been near him before) it was great fun, in the end he beat me by 8 secs.

    So considering the 1st 6 miles are more or less up hill. My HRA was 85%  throughout the race at 7.30 a mile, felt ok at the end and 6 mins faster than last year.

    As you have already said image I might regret this tomorrow...

    Is that a pb?



  • Nice racing Royimage  It was a PB only because it was my first 5 mile race!

  • marmite - thanks for the link to your old thread.  Your analysis is really interesting, and reinforces my view that there are loads of inconsistencies in both the original Hadd document, and in subsequent discussions he posted on LetsRun.

    I can't argue with Hadd's central, Lydiard-esque hypothesis (slow base build works), as it has worked for me in spades, but I have always had an issue with the rat running stuff that he (mistakenly) used to justify it.   As you pointed out, there is more than mitochondrial genesis going on here...avoiding injury being my main concern.image

  • Nice 5 miler Teknik!

    13.1 for me ... first 5M at 7:03, 2nd 5M at 7:03, final 5K at 7:09. 1:32:35ish (unofficial) which is bag on target and where I expect to be at the moment. Fastest HM since Jan 2011, so can't complain too much .... but I know I should be way faster by now. One day I'll actually do some HM training.

  • Txs Teknik, my problem is that even if I let HR climb to 80% the pace reduces dramatically but yes, I seem to be able to reduce HR on the downhill with an increased pace. Post Marathon I'm thinking of using a 75% ceiling and rather than reduce HR on the downhill keep it at 75% so would probs involve plenty of walking. Most of my runs are either hilly or undulating and very few flat parts.

    Roy, congrats on  the PB image and whilst you may be sore now am sure you don't regret it.

    marmite, care to repost your link? like Teknik I enjoy (sort of) HADDing though not sure about rats and stuff (how do you know what HR% they run at?).

    Dr.Dan, congrats on the PB and as you say, think of the time you'd get if you trained for a HM distance image

    No run for me today, the storms and 50mph winds during the night messed up the Island and lots of roads were under up to a metre of water or blocked by fallen trees.

    Second of 3 weeks taper start Monday, any problem with me doing Sunday's missed 12 miler on Monday then doing my planned 2nd week taper mileage on top? Am thinking thats ok?


  • Andi McGill 2 wrote (see)

    Dr.Dan, congrats on the PB and as you say, think of the time you'd get if you trained for a HM distance image 

    Almost 2 min off my PB Andiimage ... but my best HM since thenimage. The main thing to take away was the good steady pacing and that the the time was slightly faster than my recent 5Ks suggest. The other thing I took away was some VERY wet kit. image

     I can't see any issues in doing your 12 miler today. Wear a helmet though.,image

  • Where do you live Andi? sounds interesting. Hope you make your long run today.

    Great pacing Dr Dan - I really hope I progress to be as fast as you.

    Things going good with me. 90 minute long run yesterday and felt like I could easily do another 90. 30 minutes this morning and fastest yet at low HR. Feeling very positive.

    Been doing research beyond Hadd, reading a book by Dr Phil Maffetone - big believer of low HR training - and I'm using his 180 minus age calculation for my aerobic ceiling rather than what Polar sport zones thinks it is. Feels right. My doubt about it at the moment is how to make progress and vary runs.


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