HADD Training Method



  • oops sorry Dr.Dan, SB then image Sounds like a good run and that your going the right way for a PB.

    Johhny, am on Mull (Tobermory) tis still windy here but seems to have died down a bit so may try the 12 miler this afternoon. I've read about Maffetone but not read his book yet, tis on my list. 180-age is pretty much a finger in the air and guess method. I'm 54 so 220-54=166 whilst my 'actual' MAX is 188bpm. It might be painful but well worth looking at one of the running methods to work it out.  That said, by the law of averages it will probably work for a few people.


  • Dr D - great stuff, weather bad? What was the avHR? I always try and start slow and get faster (he says having only done 3!!)image


  • Ah, problem with the HR was that I left my HR monitor at workimage. I should have gone on a detour and got it on the way, as I ended up getting to Wales very early, but I was worried about thw traffic given the weather. It was very wet but luckily we were mostly prortected from the high winds by the trees on the route.

  • Andi - how are the niggles and pains at the moment ? 

    Roy - and how are your legs after yesterdays race ?

    Johnny - as you say, things are goign well for you so you should be feeling positive. I read the link to Maffetone and my MAX is only 2 bpm different to what I am currently working with. Although I do need to take another test to find out what my max is at the moment.

    Dr.Dan - a great race from you in what sounds like tough conditions. What was your average heart rate for the race ?

    Teknik - nice PB ! Have you found that you have been less injured since following the HADD plan ?

    After a weekend of no running (due to making some shelves and cupboards for the kitchen for Mrs C and now I am aching like a right old codger) I have been for a run down by the river at lunchtime. I think the HRM must be playing up as my run started off with a massive peak, which it normally doesnt do, and for the next 3 miles I have knocked off about 8bpm while running at my normal pace ! We shall see what tomorrow brings. It was very windy out there today too.

  • xpost carter ... answer is in my post above.

    Dr.Dan wrote (see)

    Ah, problem with the HR was that I left my HR monitor at workimage.


  • Carterusm,

        Legs are fine no run today, so fine I might do 5 miles at MP tomorrow, unless someone can talk me out of it !!!

        Please, someone talk me out of it !!

  • Hi Carter, niggles seem to be gone today thanks - 3 days with no running probalby helped things image The HR 'peak' may be due to a poor contact? do you use a gel or rely on sweat to make a good contact? hope Mrs C likes the shelves/cupboards!

    Roy, you know you want to do itimage

    Was all set for the missed 12 miler today and the wind had dropped to 'just' gusting at 40mph, going out the wind was behind and to the side of me but had to run on the wrong side of the road as the gusts could easily have blown me into oncoming traffic.

    Rain was quite hard and my pinhole glasses held up well so think I'll wear them at LN. 4 miles averaging 10:35mm's and 72% AHR - sounds good @ 41secs/mile faster than pMP but too short a distance to get excited about it.

  • Dr.Dan that's a great run, nice pacing, good result on no HM specific trainingimage

    Andi I agree with Dr.Dan, and, jesus the weather sounds fierce

    Johnny I don't know why some authors insist on fixed numbers for zones, rather than % : 180 minus age as a ceiling would have me walking at 62%max.

    BeDe hope you're ok

    Carter I used to flog myself stupid on P&D schedules. I always CBA'd on one of the sessions (usually the one after the intervals), and literally 3 out of 4 campaigns ended with injury and a cancelled marathon.  I haven't had a single injury since adopting Hadd...and my mileage has doubled.image

    Roy, do 10image...oops no, you're tapering...5 is fine, but so is an easy jogimage

    VT/Chick/Stewart/Cheesy hope you're ok

    3m recovery jog this morning then 3m of 200/200 fartlek this afternoon.  All ok here...

  • Andi sorry x-post - well done for getting some in !

  • Tek, yeah not bad can I ask what was it about P&D that didn't work for you? 

  • Teknik, no probs, been without t'internet for a couple of hours and wasn't sure my post actually got sent.

    As everybody probably does am now starting to worry a little about LN and not least because my last (just 2nd) 20 miler was 24th August. This adrenalin rush peeps talk about had better last 5 hours lol.

  • Andi LOLimage

    Stewart I think I just lacked a solid base.  There used to be a big spread between my 5k/10k/HM/M paces, so basically I ran intervals too fast, tempo's were a hard run, and as P&D give you no guidance on "MP", I ran everything else too fast.   I had six failed attempts at a sub4, when my half time was 1:43 - I basically lacked endurance and no amount of tempo's and intervals (and CBA'ing on the midweek MLR) was going to cure it.image 

    ...plus when I finally strapped a HRM on, I realised I'd spent most of the previous 3 years running around at 85% or more.  No wonder I kept bonking out...

  • Roy – there will be no talk of us trying to talk you out of it !!

    Teknik - I tried the P&D training plan for a while and found it really tough going considering I had only been running for about 12 months. As you say, I think you need a solid base before following that plan. Maybe it was trying to following this plan that contributed to my dodgy knee. What race are you currently training for ?

    Andi – you’ve already got t’internet up there on Craggy Island ?? J Mrs C is already planning my next little job ! Mr HRM normally starts working correctly straight away and I’ve never seen such a spike at the beginning before, although I understand it’s a common occurrence with some people. I rely on good old fashioned sweat to make a good contact although now the weather has cooled down a bit the sweat doesn’t start til later in the run. That said, I normally have the strap quite tight so it should connect quite easily. Probably just one of those things, we will see what today brings.

    The weather has certainly turned. I took the mutt out for a walk this morning at about 5:30 and it was really cold and blowing a gale (in Sheffield). I took him up into the Peak District for a walk last night and hat and gloves were needed already. I’m at an event on Wednesday where I can test new shoes and equipment from Soloman. I’ve got my eyes on a pair of Fellraisers which is their latest fell running shoe; I just need to convince Mrs C that I ‘need’ them now !

  • image Once the cold weather arrives, I just have to accept that the first mile or two will give me silly HR readings. No amount of spit makes any difference ... it just dries up and contact is lost.

    Andi - forget the adrenaline, that'll make you do silly things ... start very easy, stay very easy, and make sure you get to 20 in one piece.image

  • Ok, so I've just been out for a little lunchtime trot. Yesterday, I had a spike in my HR, as mentioned earlier, but today that didn't happen. Instead, HADD training has kicked in overnight or there is something wrong with my monitor. My average pace for this same route is about 9:12 per mile with AHR of 125. Today, my pace was 9:16 but for my AHR was 118, that's 7bpm lower than normal. I haven't come anywhere near that in any of my previous runs. Surely, I wouldn't see such a massive drop overnight, would I and there must be a fault in my monitor ? If the battery in my HRM went would it just stop working completely or could it just struggle to record accurate readings before it completely dies, anyone had an experience of this ?

  • You probably only dropped 3% or so, am I correct? Say from 70% to 67%. You may not necessarily notice big shifts in pace/effort level in that zone, at least from one day to the next when other variables come into play. However, 7 bpm when you're up in the 80% zone will cause a big difference in effort/pace/etc.

  • Yes, yesterdays run was 70.29% @ 9:34. Todays run was 67.43% but at 9:16. You guys have previously told me that I will probably fluctuate each day but I havent seen such a big change from one day to the next. It's just taken me by surprise that I have dropped by 3% but am 18 seconds per mile quicker. Below are some stats from my last few runs.

    Distance Total Time Avg Pace Avg HR % of MHR Max HR 4.26 40:39 09:33 124 70.86% 135 4.51 41:56 09:18 125 71.43% 146 4.29 40:35 09:28 126 72.00% 141 5.20 50:03 09:37 125 71.43% 134 5.04 48:15 09:34 123 70.29% 161 5.86 54:15 09:16 118 67.43% 141
  • Distance    Total Time    Avg Pace    Avg HR    % of MHR    Max HR

    4.26           40:39           09:33         124          70.86%        135

    4.51           41:56           09:18         125          71.43%        146 

    4.29           40:35           09:28         126          72.00%        141

    5.20           50:03           09:37         125          71.43%        134

    5.04           48:15           09:34         123          70.29%        161

    5.86           54:15           09:16         118          67.43%        141


  • Carter I'm training for Frankfurt - 6 weeks to go now. On the last run maybe you've had a "wow" moment, but don't get upset if the stats are worse tomorrow.  The trend is our friendimage.  The colder weather helps...

    Dr Dan same here.  I end up running the first mile holding the strap to my chest to get a better contact.  Feel a right (or left) tit, but hey I don't want to ruin my stats...image

    12m for me this morning - 6.5m on my own, then 5.4m through the woods and around the park with the club, including a couple of sets of short hill sprints. We got back just under 12m, so I added a few fast strides up and down the car park. image  

  • This thread has been busy.   I have been recovering from a couple of ultras and a slight injury.


    I am only semi hadding now.    Was seriously found out on the mountain and hills.   So have to do a lot more hill reps and hilly runs.    HADD has given me a very good base and will continue for 3 days a week with the other 3 not HADD.   Cannot think of any other way.

  • Carter - nice work at the low %MaxHR range - keep it there and build the mileageimage

    Tek - OK thx. Got another 5 weeks at 5K+3min and will see where that gets me too. Still on low mileage, expect to be for another few weeks but want to be on 15+ (weekly) by early Oct.

  • Nice races to Tek and Dr. Dan. Comfy speed = good!


    My HR strap has been giving funky readings too (in the cooler weather).

    Yesterday got a 16 miler in (missed it on Sunday). Great run...8:15 m/m ave at HR ave 147 (74%). 1st half done at around 8:40, then 4 around 8:10, then final 4 around 7:40. Legs felt good (although my ITB got a little tight). This week my goal is to get a subLT and my final 20 miler before taper.

    It's hard for me to imagine running a whole race at 7:30 pace. Am scared to run the race without a HR monitor. As discussed, I may just head out at a 150 HR (about 75% for me) and see what the pace is. If I can keep it under 160 (80%) until say 18 miles, I think I can manage the rest from there. Man, this is gonna hurt...

  • Ran on the treadmill today

    5 miles at 124 bpm  ave =  7 .47 a mile, works out at 77% ish.

    Carterusm, if you buy Solamons go for a half size larger shoe as they are really tight fitting.

  • Teknik, sounds like your an excellent example of what HADDing can do for runners image I'm still playing with the early stages of phase 1 and whilst still slow it has enabled me to run twice as far in a month at a slightly faster pace and other than a few niggles no injuries - and forgotten what DOMS feels like. 

    Sounds like a good run and well done for going the extra mile (ok, tenth).

    Lol Carter and yup, we got t'internet and 14k dialup is a thing of the pastimage Glad to hear Mrs C keeps you busy and if you play your cards right then the Fellraisiers may be an easy purchase. Talking about HRM straps, I think I've cure two problems in one go, I have a couple of bad sores from the HRM strap and in the past have suffered from runners nipple (that was painful). My last couple of runs have been short and have been wearing the HRM across my nipples - seems to work fine and no pain.

    And lol, I struggled for ages trying to work out your original stats before viewing your next post and a nice table image

    Like you, I can have large swings with AHR over the same route on consecutive days and as well as temperature/wind etc I think sleep, nutrition and general wellbeing plays a part so tend to look at weekly/monthly averages

    Dr.Dan, yup, will do my best to stay sensible, just want the adrenalin to kick in around 17 miles at Dores Hill. Am a little worried now that I've not done enough downhill running as I normally use the downhill to lower AHR so guess I should stick with that method? (its just that most of the downhill is in the first 1/3rd at LN and I should still be fresh).

    spen, good to hear from you again, have you looked at HADDs phase II? I did and it looked scary to me - what are you planning on doing other than HADD? 

    BeDe, keep going as you are, sounds like you have a good recovery plan and it seems to be working image

    VT, as always, good running and your 'plan' is pretty much what mine is for LN (though need to replace 7:30 with 11:16 lol).

    Roy, great pace image whats your MAX HR? seems low as 77%(ish) for me is 145bpm.

    Day off for me today and plan on driving up to a nice flat 4 mile (+/-90 metre) run tomorrow as finally got the new set of locking wheel nuts delivered (post to Craggy Island can take a while).


  • Tek, thanks for the info interesting that your main issue was running in the wrong zones, checking back on my logs this time last year I was running my long runs @10mm averaging over 80%

    Andi, hope you enjoy your flatish 4 mile run today and the taper is going well

    Dr Dan great advice as always

    Spen, hope the injury isn't too serious

    VT, a good progressive run and feeling good at the end must be a confidence booster

    Roy, nice run on the treadie looking good

    An easyish four mile run to start week two of the taper the run was a bit start stop due to varying ablilities in the group and the really good news the legs felt really good, going to do an eight mile run with 5 @ MP tonight

    Stats: 4.28mi, 10:22mm, 138(73%)

  • Bede ... good progress.You'll get there!image

    Tek ...OCD on rounding mileage. Has to be done! image

    Good 16 miler VT - the HR strategy sounds sensible to me. although I worry about having an artificially high HR on the day (often reported - nerves/adrenaline/etc). At least feel I now know what pace the desired race HR will produce over 16 miles, so can set off at that pace rather than HR.

    Roy - nice treddie workout!

    Andi - enjoy the day off!

    I've had 2 days off to recover from the HM ... I had pretty intense DOMS in a narrow strip in my quads, although everywhere else was fine. Plan to get out today though.

    4.5 weeks to go until Race Day ... aiming for one more 22+ miler on Sunday (RD - 4 weeks), then a 10K race the next weekend (RD - 3), and hopefully one more 16-18 miler at MP (at RD-2.5).

  • Errm Hi  image  *waves nervously*

    I've been running now for 2 years and have always ran to a training plan (lsr, intervals, hills tempo etc) and had 1 successfull and 1 non overly successful marathon, lots of halfs and a little ultra and although i love running to a plan i have a good idea i have been running too hard for pretty much all of it but within all the training i have done i have properly fallen in love with long runs. Its this love of long runs which makes me want to do them better which of course brings me here image but i have a couple of probably very silly questions sorry..

    Once i get my mhr as i understand it i should do all my runs at 75%? is this correct? And what sort of mileage should i be doing? do i start with a low figure of say 5/6 and get used to running at 75% for that and then build up? And if i'm running 4/5 times a week do i vary the distance each run or keep it the same for every one until i acclimatise to it? I should say i won't be a 50 mile per week gal..maybe later on..not yet tho.

    Sorry for all the questions

  • I need to look at HADD phase 2.   Where about is it?

  • busy thread! sorry for radiosilence - Bit of an injury nightmare for me. Either a herniated disc or a pulled muscle in my back. unable to move much ... strong painkillers and injections. not happy ... got my Boston place and now this... boo hoo

    ok, had to get this off my chest. sorry for whining...

    welcome Carrie image

    as you seem to have quite a bit of experience already there is no need to stick to very short runs. i like variety and would suggest you alternate 5/6 mile runs with perhaps 9/10 mile ones and a slightly longer one at the weekend. you decide what you feel like. that's the nice thing about Hadd. as you are just starting perhaps you would consider what many of us on here did and throw in a number of 70% runs. alternating them with 75% really helps to build a solid Aerobic Base.





  • Spen well done on the ultras, and I hope the injury sorts itself out quickly.  Hadd phase II is discussed on the second page of the can.milesplit thread Dr Dan posted at the top of page 1.  However, it's all intervals and is aimed at (a) races shorter than a marathon OR (b) slow-twitch runners looking to improve their marathon times.  For fast-twitch types doing a mara+, carry on with phase I, I think is the message.

    BeDe sensible strategy, well done

    VT excellent 16 miler !.  Your race strategy sounds good - if it weren't for the niggles then staying under 80% until mile 18 I'd call "very safe"image

    Roy looking good!

    Andi that's good progress, and enjoy tomorrow's "flat" runimage

    Stewart I think getting the heart to operate at lower and lower levels is the key to all this.

    Dr Dan hope the legs feel easier now

    Carrie welcomeimage.  Yes stick to a 75%max ceiling - you can pick any plan you've previously used, and just use the mileage suggested - delete anything that says "tempo" or "fartlek" or "intervals", and just run the miles as an easy run.  You will probably find 75% too easy, but stick to it, unless you're running slower than your 5k pace+3mins per mile, in which case run at 5k+3 (like BeDe) until that pace drops below 75%. 

    SubLT went badly today - 7:39mm, 11 seconds slower than last week, and HR flattened at 83% instead of the 81.5% from last week.  I think yesterday's sodding around with the club tired me out...

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