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HADD Training Method
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Chick, great to hear that! Hope it holds as you start again.
DD, I agree. I'd like to nab my qualifier and skip that distance for a year too. Shorter stuff for me but not sure which distances or in what order. Will be excited to do some faster training though (hope I hold up!).
13 miles in the dark for me. Felt really good tonight. Miles just clicked off at about 8 to 8:10 pace and in the 68-73ish HR range. It's now 1 am and I have to be up with my girls at 6...and I still have to drive home. Fun stuff. Big couple of weeks ahead at work...
Dr Dan - what's your plan like between the marathons?
Sleep
Eat
Pray
The rough plan is to rest completely for 1 week (maybe some swim & bike) ... run conservatively in the 2nd week (busy week at work, so it will be hard to do much else) ... put in a solid week with MP work in week in 3 ... and then recover in week 4.
But if Nottingham is not going well, I can always pull out at 16-17 miles when the route comes back towards the city centre... no point slogging it out if I feel the wheels might come off at 20-22.
Full Hadd ILTHR session today ... 11.7 miles with 10.4 miles at subLT ...
10 laps
7:31/m 134 bpm 77% maxHR
7:24/m 139 bpm
7:30/m 140 bpm 80% maxHR
7:27/m 141 bpm
7:28/m 142 bpm
7:30/m 142 bpm
7:31/m 143 bpm
7:28/m 143 bpm
7:29/m 144 bpm
7:26/m 145 bpm 83% maxHR
7:28/m average pace for 80.7% maxHR
Happy with that, especially after doing 53 miles in 5 days.
Quiet here...
20.3 with 10 at MP for me today ... 8:22/m over all, with the MP section at 7:57/m for 78% maxHR.
EDIT: with stats...
warm-up
1, 1.15 mi, 8:32/m, 121 bpm (down-hill)
8 miles steady-state... 8:34/m 70.6% maxHR
2, 8:43, 126 bpm
3, 8:33, 125
4, 8:32, 127
5, 8:35, 126
6, 8:50, 126
7, 8:29, 126
8, 8:30, 129
9, 8:22, 129
10 miles MP... 7:57/m 136.4 bpm (78% maxHR)
10, 8:00, 132 bpm
11, 8:07, 135
12, 8:00, 135
13, 7:52, 135
14, 7:52, 136
15, 7:51, 136
16, 7:59, 136
17, 8:09, 138
18, 7:57, 140
19, 7:45, 141
cool-down
20, 1.15 mi , 10:14/m, 130 bpm (up-hill)
Good numbers Dan. Good luck with the 2 marathons.
VT, Good luck with yours too!
Chick, hope the achillies held up ok?
VT, am looking forward to some running in the dark in a couple of months
DD, I may have to have a rest day after reading your last couple of runs! Looking good
Brian, hows things??
After 8 weeks of minimal running I managed to get a couple of decent weeks in (60 & 48). Yesterdays 18 miler was (very) hard work but did manage miles 16 & 17 ay pMP (10:18) albeit downhill.
2 weeks taper now and just hope I'm ready for Loch Ness. Mtd is 108 miles in 18hrs 58mins 42secs (10:31) and 72.34% AHR
During taper and post marathon will be asking (newbie) HADD questions ready for a wonderful Autumn/Winter of HADDing
"Ecce Signum" - I am guessing that's Andy?
Nightmare continues for me. After getting going again after last Autumn's hamstring problems and debacle at Amsterdam, I came down with a touch of PF. Hopefully over it now and just starting to build-up (again!). Not sulked as drastically as usual and have made regular visits to the gym for biking, rowing and some S&C. Managed 20mins jog yesterday and planning to do 25mins on the treadie tomorrow.
Anybody willing to write a quick catch-up for me?
Dan, some great work there. Excellent sessions, especially the ILTHR...very evenly paced (and fast!).
Brian, where have you been man!! Glad to hear from you. What are you up to these days??
So have had a fairly bipolar weekend. Saturday I offered up a progressive LR to the Marathon gods. 18 miles w/the last 10 at MP. Worked out to about 7:05 m/m and HR of around 78% ave. It was very cold (40 F) so HR was maybe lower due to that. I was surprised though at how strong I felt over these miles. They didn't feel fast or overly taxing at all.
Went camping in the mountains that Saturday night and got home w/a fever Sunday. Slept 12 hrs straight and am better now, but not completely recovered. Not sure what I picked up, but it's nasty.
Andi, nice work. Repeat after me "I am ready!!" And you are!
Get lots of rest and take care of yourself up to race day.
VT, hope you got away with a 24hr thingy. Great 18 miler too.
Apologies for not posting. As well as the injury problems I have been very busy at the Cricket Club, where I am VP and an active coach. Lots of admin work. We had an arson attack on the May bank holiday and we have had a huge operation refurbishing. Plus we had agreed to stage the League Showpiece Cup Final on August Bank Holiday Sunday so there was a lot of panic in getting the Club repaired and the ground ready. Anyway everything went really well and all parties were suitably impressed.
Coupled with the fact I am being made redundant. Original date was 6th August but have had 2 extensions, I am now due to finish 28th November. So a lot of sh*t going down, and applying for jobs etc etc.
Sounds like you guys have been doing fine without me anyways......
Brian - rubbish news regarding the injury, arson and work
. Well done on rescuing the cricket club ... I'm sure you'll be just as successful with the injury and job issues.
"Ecce Signum" - I am guessing that's Andy?
Correct!
VT - great 18 miler ... bad luck with the fever - take care to recover before doing anything too strenuous!
Dan - Am I correct in thinking that if your recent Sub Lactate session averaged around 7.30 pace, then this is the minimum pace you would run your marathon (ideal being at, or just below LT), which predicts a 3.17 marathon ?
Shoes - I'd die trying 26.2 at subLT pace!! I'd expect my average mara HR to be about the same as a subLT session ... but to attain that average HR over 26.2, I'd need to slow down. So start off at 135 bpm and expect it to rise (as it did in the MP section yesterday between 9 and 19 miles). My target MP should be more like 8/m ... although it hasn't converted from training to race day so far (something I still don't understand).
Dan - So subLT pace is more thoeretical -in practice you can maintain it over shorter distances, but for longer you'd have to lower it to allow for heart rate drift?
Or, is it because what you think is your LT is, in fact above and you're running slightly anearobic ?
Brian, sorry to hear about the injury and Cricket Club but good work fixing things
And yup, tis Andi
A few of us on similar mileage for the month but am sure I've been running for a longer time than the rest of you lol
Talking about subLT, I tried the other day and managed 7 1/2 minutes at 80%!!
So, following HADD and building up ...
2 x 15 mins 1 x 20-25 2 x 20 1 x 30 2 x 25 3 x 15 1 x 40-45 3 x 20 2 x 30 2 x 40 1 x 60 2 x 45 1 x 70-75...Should I start at 2 x 7 1/2 minutes then start the above? And, do I do this once a week until I'm happy to move to a longer run?
Also, have decided to run to time rather than distance and think this will help me slow down
Sounds like a sensible build up Ecce. I'd go for twice a week with a shorter time/distance, rather than once a week with a longer distance.
LT pace is quite easy to predict ... something like this calculator for example.
ILTHR effort level is supposed to be a little below LT, which is apparently where aerobic adaptations take place most efficiently. For me it's a useful training effort, rather than a marathon pace predictor. It roughly matches "ideal" MP based on McMillan calculators etc ... and you'll find lots of "pace-based" runners using this as a training pace, even if they don't ever run actual marathons.
The more aerobically adapted you are, the higher the %HR you can run a marathon at. Brian for example (from what I recall from past posts) takes his pace in 83% subLT sessions during the latter stages of marathon training ...and uses it as a marathon pace guide. I would last about 15 miles at that effort before fatigue started to kick in.
EDIT: 8.3 miles at 8:23/m today at 75% maxHR. Felt good.
Hi everyone,
Been reading this forum for about a week. Some good paces.
I've started Hadding from this week slowly building up my mileage. Currently focussing more on time than distance. Targetting 7-8 hours a week to start with all easy at 70% HRmax. I also do cycling around 50-80 miles a week. After 4 weeks I will take the test and start including 2 LT sessions.
Yesterday, 75mins 137AHR(71%) 11'39 avg pace distance 6.4miles. Temp 22C. V v slow
Today, 75mins 140AHR (72%) 11'18 avg pace distance 6.6miles. Temp 27C v humid.
Best times for 2014:
5k 22'06
10k 45'55
HM 1'38'43
Regards
Steve
Welcome Bunnyb
. Your HM time is better than your 5K/10K, so suggests that you have a pretty good aerobic capacity. 11:30/m is a bit miserable to have to endure for 4 weeks .. I'd just run at 10 min/mi for now as that's about your "5KP+3" pace ... you'll see that your HR at that pace will gradually move down towards 70%, at which point you can switch to monitoring HR.
Thanks for the tip Dan.
At 10m/m by HR is around 160 so not sure about running at that pace for now. I'm happy to stick to boredom for 4 weeks if I know that I can take off 1min from my pace. Then do the test.
I struggle to control my HR at fast paces. Last Saturday I ran 60mins at 8:20avg pace and had 169AvHR(87%).
Hmmm, I'm beginning to think your maxHR is very wrong - how did you calculate it? Do you have any avHR reading for your races?
87% maxHR is probably about LT (tempo pace) ... that effort is very difficult to maintain for more than 50-60 minutes. And if your tempo pace is 8:20/m, how on earth could you maintain 7:32/m for 108 minutes in your HM? No way! Based on your HM time, your tempo pace should be about 7:22/m (which is more like the pace you'd expect to see 87% maxHR) and "ideal" MP about 8/m (about 83% maxHR). So I'd guestimate your 169 bpm 8:20 pace to be less than 80% ... suggesting your maxHR is comfortably over 200 bpm.
I'd just run at 10 min/mi for now as that's about your "5KP+3" pace ... Hadd did actually say not to run slower than 5KP+3, so it's perfectly "legal".
Hi guys
hope they give you a good redundancy package at least. Still, it sucks to be in such a situation. I guess most of us have been there...
Welcome Bunnybeach. 11mm seems quite slow relative to your PBs. I wonder what the HRmax Test comes back with. You may not have to slog for that much longer
Brian: Good to see you back. Not so good to read your news
Good mileage Andi, Dr. D and VT.
Achilles is on the mend. I'm still being quite careful though. I just don't want it come back or get worse again. Up to 8 miles now without pain. Pace hovers around 9mm. I'm OK with that.
Have worked a lot on my core and my glutes and I keep doing those blasted heel raises
. I used to do them a lot when my back went and I couldn't run. They helped me to get off my arse, do my back some good and maintain a minimum level of fitness.
I've also rediscovered the stairs at work
Hi Dan,
I used the MaxHR according to my HM race as the last 2 miles I pushed really hard. So I guess it was a good reading. Do you suggest I do the maxHR test?
This my HM stats on Garmin Connect. MaxHR was 194. This race was in Feb with temp of 13C and a slightly downhill course. Today I feel less fit than in Feb and if I had to run a HM today I would probably be close to 1'45.
http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/449923117
Recent 5k race stats are these http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/567343887 sorry no HR.
I will take on your suggestion about 5KP+3 for my easy runs see how it goes. Hopefully it won't take long to come down to around 70%.
Take into account the weather when comparing Feb and Aug/Sep. I'm from Malta and at present the weather is hot and v humid.
Hi Chickadeee.
Earlier this month I took a lactate test and zone 1 resulted in up to 172HR which I thought was too high. PER at that HR was 16 out of 20 so very hard indeed. My coach told me that the zones were worked out according to the lactic acid build up and he believes that my MP is 8m/m.
He also suggested that I might have the HR monitor not working well and suggested I buy an new one as I've used it for over a year now.
Appreciate your suggestions
Thank you.
Bunnyb - Since "Hadd" (John Walsh RIP) was from Malta, you have no excuse.
A max reading during a HM will be well below your actual maxHR ... in my PB HM I hit a high of 93.7% of my maxHR and averaged 88%.
I think your maxHR is 205-210 bpm (sorry but the Garmin links don't work).
Good progress chick!
Ok Dan thanks. Best if I do the MaxHR test. If I remember correctly it's an all out 800 followed by 400 with a 90sec rest in between. Then you take the maxHR recorded during the sets.
Known John for a few years, he was my neighbour. But never though he was such a good coach. It's a shame I didn't train with him. I still remember the day he died. He had a heart attack during a morning run. How brutal life can be eh?!
Very tragic.
The key with the maxHR test is to only put in the hard - max efforts when you've already (and gradually) lifted your HR to say 80%. If you go all out too soon, you'll burn out before hitting max. So build up slowly to 165-170 bpm, stay there for a while (3 min), and then ramp things up until you feel
. A long hill is good for that last bit.
Thanks Dan
Today is John's 3rd anniversary
Hi everyone,
Been reading this forum for about a week. Some good paces.
I've started Hadding from this week slowly building up my mileage. Currently focussing more on time than distance. Targetting 7-8 hours a week to start with all easy at 70% HRmax. I also do cycling around 50-80 miles a week. After 4 weeks I will take the test and start including 2 LT sessions.
Yesterday, 75mins 137AHR(71%) 11'39 avg pace distance 6.4miles. Temp 22C. V v slow
Today, 75mins 140AHR (72%) 11'18 avg pace distance 6.6miles. Temp 27C v humid.
Best times for 2014:
5k 22'06
10k 45'55
HM 1'38'43
Regards
Steve