HADD Training Method



  • Wednesday - Rest


    Today - 20miles done cycling easy HR.  Tonight easy track session - 5km at 160HR and 5 x 400.

  • Welcome, Bunnybeach! Good advice given here by others. I agree your HR is likely higher so will be interesting to see what you find out. In the meantime, happy running.

    Brian, wow, you've had a very tough year. I'm glad you are running a bit again and that you have navigated the other tests of life with success. All the best in your return and in your job search. Sometimes things happen for a reason and I hope you end up better off than before. Talented people usually do!

    Shoes, like Dan, my subLT pacing hasn't translated to race day either. I've found about 20-40 seconds per mile slower at same HR on the day in the past. But hoping for better this time around.

    Chick, great news on your end. Keep rolling with success!image Heel raises are a small price to pay.image

    Well, I ended up taking Sun/Mon/Tues off due to illness. Yesterday felt reasonably good so went out. Shortly debated a subLT session but held off and decided a nice MLR on a sunny day would be perfect. Around mile 7 lost my wind a bit but was far from home so ended up doing 14.5. Should have capped it around 10, but what can you do. Ended up 8:30/m at 70% but felt like a 22 mile slog in the later miles. That bug took a big bite out of me. Will go for 5 or 6 tonight. Am thinking of scrapping any hard stuff this week. Next week is last full week before taper so hopefully can get some quality in (and maybe start that week rested). Then I can still do the subLT sharpening runs through taper w/out over extending at all.

    Other concern is my right groin. Pain has been creeping in there for a few weeks. Got scary on my progressive run last weekend. Better after rest, but an seeing Fizz today to see what's what.


  • Thanks VT.  Will take the test early next week.

    Track session this evening.  30mins at 156AvHR.  Then did 5 x 400m fast with 6mins rest in between avg 1'17.  Long recovery due to a triathlon race on Sunday.


  • nice and easy 20mile on my indoor bike this morning.  Fat adaptation mode.

    45min run tonight at 10m/m.  Hoping not to exceed 160avHR. Yesterday I was doing 9m/m at 156avHR on track.

  • VTrunner - You see, this is what confuses me a little about yours and Dan's subLT. Surely if it's SUB then by definition there should be no accumulation of Lactate and you should be able to maintain your pace in the marathon (all things equal).

    Does it not make you wonder if your Threshold is actually at a lower HR/ slower pace than you think? HAAD's percentages are a guide and we must all be different.

  • Chick, No - package is statutory minimum image Glad you're achilles seems to be on the mend, patience is the secret as you know.

    Welcome Bunnybeach. I have a tendancy towards DrDan's observations as far as your HRmax goes. Those 400s were quick!!!

    VT, Thanks for that. I hope you're right. Good luck with the fizz results.

    35mins yesterday on the mill at 9:20 pace. 40mins outside tomorrow image Next week I hope to do 3 runs outside in the region of 5miles each.



  • yes Brian they were indeed. Normally I do them in 1'25 but with long recovery I pushed a bit harder on each rep.  In fact I'm feeling my lower back a bit sore today.  Will see how my easy run goes later today.  If it's painful I will miss Sunday's triathlon race.

  • Bunny: Blimey! 1:17 for 400s is flying. I've never broken 1:26 image but I usually take short recoveries. At least that's my excuse for being rubbish at inverals image

    How great that you actually knew Mr. Hadd in real life.

    Brian: statutory minimum doesn't sound good image. Hope you find something new. I know it ain't easy. I came to Germany with no work and no entitlement to benefits either as I'd voluntarily given up my UK job...  It all came good in the end but it was a tense few months before I saw light at the end of the tunnel.

    VT: good to hear you are feeling better. I wonder why your and Dr. Dan's sub LT paces don't materialise in a marathon. For me it worked twice down to a T.  82% of max. in sub LTruns came out as MP in 2012 and 2013 (before I got injured). Maybe it's because I am slow twitch and you guys are fast twitch? Would be interesting to find out more about this...

  • Run went well and back is better.



    45 mins 9'54avPace 148avHR. temp 27C wind 15mph 84% humidity.

  • Easy run this morning preparing my legs for tomorrow's sprint triathlon. V humid conditions.


    45mins 10'29avPace 148avHR. temp 24C wind 7mph 94% humidity.



  • Bunny, good luck in your tri!

    Brian, hope today's run outside was uneventful.image

    Shoes, yes, confusing to say the least. As Chick suggests, I think I certainly am well on the fast twitch side of the bell curve and that may factor into this. But perhaps I'm always running my subLTs too hard, despite HR%? It could be as simple as that. But in my case, the two marathons I've run off of HADD training have not been optimal tests of this theory. First one my training was interrupted quite a bit (missed several weeks w/ITBS) and then kind of scraped a few quality weeks together at the end and went for it. So probably just not as fit for that one. Last one followed a full training schedule but it was a super hot and humid day (coming off spring training of no such days) so perhaps the extra time per mile was simply nonnegotiable. I should toe the line off full training this cycle and hopefully it will be cool. My hypothesis is that I'll run somewhere in the middle (not my subLT pace but not 30 seconds less either)...would take it anyway.image

    So Thurs saw the Fizz and worked out that my issue is doing one of my PT exercises wrong. So came up with a different way to hit this muscle and so far so good. Amazing what at little tweak can prevent. Got 8 miles in that day and I felt much stronger. Yesterday did 13.1 in 1:44 and HR around 72%. Felt really strong and cruised even pace and then 6:40 last mile w/all systems in the green. My fever bug turned into a massive sinus clog. Only time I feel really good is when running.imageimage Hope this congestion clears.

  • Shoes smell like horse piss wrote (see)

    VTrunner - You see, this is what confuses me a little about yours and Dan's subLT. Surely if it's SUB then by definition there should be no accumulation of Lactate and you should be able to maintain your pace in the marathon (all things equal).

    Based on that theory, we should be able to run forever at subLTimage. There's more to fatigue than building up lactate in the blood. I just see an ILTHR session as a 10 mi training run... not an estimation of marathon pace.

    Get well soon VT. If not, then keep on running. image

    8.3 mi on Tues and again on Wed and then 7.5 with 6.4 at subLT on Fri (7:28/m). Tomorrow is planned as a medium length run at MP.


  • VT, get well soon - I think there's a bug going around the forum (or is it a  virus???)

    Interesting discussion re subLT pace and MP image I can run 8:20min/mile pace for 7 1/2 mins right now at 80% and also run at the same AHR for much longer and 12mm's!! Guess that's lack of fitness and not just the hills?

    Bunny, like others your HR does seem a bit strange to me, maybe it's the heat but in your last link your 45 min average pace was 10:29 and AHR was 87% of MAX yet you can do 3.57 miles @83% and 2 minutes a mile faster?

    Brian, hope the job situation goes your way! I re applied for my role 6 times then when I got yhe chance to move up to Mull there wasn't a(nother) round of redundancies so came away with nothing.

    Sparing too much detail Weds night/Thurs morning was one of the times I wished I had a smaller bathroom and the sink was reachable from the toilet image.  2 days in bed off work and a third to recover and went out for a run today - still not right as the warm up walk to the road peaked my HR at 44% (normally 58) but decided to use that to my advantage and in 23 degrees went for a 90 min progressive run starting at pMP +10 seconds and ending up at pMP - 40 seconds. Finished strong and with an AHR of just 69.8% - maybe I should hope I'm still not fully recovered for the Marathon next Sunday lol.

  • Andi, sorry to hear about your illness, but apparently it only benefits you running instead of the other way around. Hope you recover well.

    17.4 miles for me today. Congestion in my head has been a bugger this weekend. This run was on a day with lots of humidity and 25 mph wind. Yeah, fun stuff. Energy was so-so (I blame the bug) but got it done. HR was higher than usual...partly to wind, but mainly to bug I think. If I don't start to clear up I may head to the doc to see if I can get some antibiotics just in case.

  • Ecce - bad luck on the bug but great progressive. Take it easy now!

    Well toughed outon that 17miler VT.

    12.3 mi for me with 10 mi on canal tow-path at MP.

    1, 7:47, 135 bmp
    2, 7:34, 136
    3, 7:48, 134
    4, 7:52, 134
    5, 8:03, 134
    6, 8:09, 133
    7, 7:52, 132
    8, 8:04, 134
    9, 8:01, 134
    10, 7:54, 134

    5 mi out:   7:49/m at 77% maxHR
    5 mi back: 8:00/m at 76%maxHR

    Would be more than happy to see those HRs next Sunday at 8/m ... but experience so far tells me they'll be higher, so I'll have to run slower.image

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Some recent work:

    1mi easy then 16 at goal pace (ish) over the weekend:


    1mi easy, 3mi goal pace, 1mi easy this morning:


    Still a few weeks to go before the taper. PLan has me running more at goal pace or (threshold- & steady- paced) intervals to average out at goal pace now.

  • Cheers VT image Tummy is still not 100% but feeling much better and think the 3 days off has left me nicely rested - Marathon weekend this week so wil make sure I'm nicely rested for that then. as the Dr say, well done on getting out there when under par!

    Txs Dr.Dan  image  As always gr8 stats - remind me again what your MAX HR is? 134bpm is about 73% for me (188Max).

    Nayan,  nice runs  and the taper should see you in fine fettle image

    Have started my running to time rather than distance regime and quite like running in 15 minute splits as am less bothered about pace but it seems to be up there without constantly thinking about it.

    Hit 2 of my 2014 'goals' today - run 3 miles sub 30 mins & sub 70% AHR and the same for 5k.

    3.13 miles in 30 mins @69.68%MAX (29:475k). Am well chuffed and hoping it sets me up nicely for Loch Ness (though 26.2 miles is a little different). MAX HR was up to 76% but there was an 84 metre incline in there.

    Next goals are 6 miles then 10k in under 60 mins and 70% AHR - the cooler months ahead should help with that image



  • Nayan, really nice stats, especially the 16 mile effort at MP. Some drift in HR, but that is what you'll see in later miles of the race so good simulation. Hope all else has been well as we haven't heard from you in a while.

    Dan, nice solid subLT effort. Particularly the nice pace at sub80% HR levels. Maybe you'll be surprised come race day? You just never know. Also, not as much riding on this attempt so maybe this well help too? You'll be our test subject.image

    Andi, didn't realize your race was this week. Good luck to you. I hope you have a great day and that the engine purrs like a kitten all the way through 26.2! Also, well done on crossing off some more goals for the year. Did you reach your 2014 for 2014 yet or still working on it? I'm currently sitting at 1764M on the year.

    So today my congestion finally broke up a bit. Still not fully out of the woods, but a nice step in the right direction. Celebrated w/10 miles on a cool and very windy fall day. Energy was awesome after yesterday's hard 17. 7:55 m/m @73%. Been harder for me to keep the runs sub70 since getting sick and today it felt good to be a little frisky w/pace.

    Also, my last few LRs have been done in my new Hoka cliftons. Love, love, love these shoes. Wore my Nimbus' today and what a pair of lead weights in comparison. Also have done a few shorter recovery runs in the Huaka. Also a very nice shoe...much firmer than the Clifton and about 1 oz heavier. But still very cushioned overall.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Thanks VTrunner. Yeah all trundling on nicely -  Ive been freewheeling in other threads a bit and only post highlights here really. How's that head cold going?

  • VT, yup, this Sunday - these marathons really creep up on you quickly! Am a little more confident than a fortnight ago but still worried as I didn't get enough long runs in so hoping a ridiculously low AHR might help me carry on lol.

    Even unwell I'm in awe of your pace Sir!

    Ah, the 2014 in 2014 goal. It was originally miles but after almost 8 weeks of no/little running that is almost a step too far. The 'B' goal is 2014k in 2014 and pleased to say that was completed earlier this month image  1,364 miles so far this year so if I want 2014 miles it's about 6.4 miles/day for then next 99 days! If your on 1764 you'll reach next century  image

    Good that your congestion is clearing but be prepared for a couple of off days whilst it does.

    Am liking this taper lark, another 30 mins easy today, 30 secs/mile faster than pMP and just 68% AHR (74 metres of incline). Pity marathons are not just 3 miles lol. 

  • Morning all,

    Chick, how long have you been in Germany, and what do you do for work?

    Bunnybeach, Good news on the back. I am still struggling to comprehend your conversion from 45min runs to 400m intervals - you must be seriously fast twitch!!!

    VT, Sounds like your lurgy is on it's way out. Careful with the PT.

    Andi, Fingers crossed that you recover from the bug in time. Hope it goes to plan on sunday.

    Dan, good numbers on your 75% 10miler. Good luck for Sunday. Which marathon you doing?

    I didn't run Saturday, got a call from the 3rd team to play cricket (last game of season). Went for a 90min bike ride with Brian jnr on Sunday. So did 40min run on Monday and it was incident free. Will try a 50min run today but very gentle (70%ish).


  • imageBrian - I'm doing Nottingham (Ikano Robin Hood Marathon) on Sunday ... main target is Dublin in 4 weeks but thought I'd experiment this time by doing an extra one as my last long run.

    Good news on the running ... good to see you back!image

  • Dan, that's hard core. Hope it all goes to plan. I guess you will run at close to 80%?

    Seems quite popular this running a mara as prep for another. I suppose it's an "easy" way of doing a mega long run - company and refreshments provided. Weather forecast looks ideal, cloudy 15' with a gentle 4mph Southerly breeze.

  • I'll try to run at 77/78% for 10 miles and see how I get on ... it will rise after that, so average over 26.2 may well be more like 80. Not sure it's good marathon prep but since the last few have gone wrong on the day anyway, I thought I may as well double my chances.image

  • My week has been filled with lots of stress and little sleep. I had an external review of my research program so big presentation and much Q and A. Navigated very well though so all good in the end. My cold still clings a bit. To blow off the cobwebs I did a subLT session. Numbers posted below. HR was high compared to recent runs, but think this is due to lack of sleep and the cold more than anything, although it was 73 and sunny so not so cool. But the good outcome is despite the higher HR, I felt strong all way round and wasn't knackered after during cool down miles up some big hills. My last 18 w/10 at subLT saw me feeling strong during those fast miles as well as my previous few subLT runs. I am hopeful that today's run means I've not lost much fitness due to illness and am still right on track. Am planning to do a progressive LR for my final 20 miler this week. Then taper down starting next week (and will run a 10K next weekend to see where I'm at). Also, not sure why my first warm up mile was so fast (guess I felt light and liberated after the events had finished).

    Andi, glad to hear the taper suits you. And congrats on the 2014km milestone.

    Brian, nicely building the time on feet there. You are on your way...very cool.

    DD, in case I don't say it later, best of luck this weekend! I like your approach. See what the day brings and run as you feel. Looking forward to the report already!




  • Thanks VT - another great subLT from you!!

    Plan this week was to run about 5 miles on Tues, Wed & Thurs, all easy but with a mile of MP if I felt like it. Tuesday's run was hard work ... set out for 5.4 but ditched the last lap of the park and just did 4.35. I guess I'm still recovering from Sunday's 12 with 10 at MP? Tuesday was a late night travelling to/from Liverpool to watch the footy at Anfield - terrible traffic and a long match. Wednesday was busy at work and I was really tired ... as I also had a bit of shin/calf pain in one leg, I ended up not running. Today the shin/calf pain was still there when I walked but I went out for my last run anyway ... again I cut it back to 4.35 but did put in a mile at MP. HR : pace ration fine but my legs felt shockingimage. Not sure why given I've only done one short/easy run this week. Really hope 2 more days of rest will rejuvenate them!image

  • Dan, I hate to say this, but running a marathon on those beat up legs could be really dicey. Is it worth the risk since you can recover now and hit the later target healed/rested? It just seems you are in a vulnerable state this week. But then again, as you say, it could be you'll bounce back by Sunday and no issues. Perhaps a few days of no running will get you to that point (very rested and healed). As Brian always reminds us, "protect what you have." Good luck sorting it all out.

  • Dr Dan I hope it was all just the usual taper madness / maranoia.  Good luck for Sundayimage

  • DD, how goes it? Did your legs pep up? Hope so!

    Got 21 and change in today w/10 at MP...will try to post stats later. Felt really strong today after 2 days of tired legs (10M Thrus; 6.5 Friday). Glad to have this one out of the way. Formal taper now begins...

  • Tek, good to hear from you. Hope you are well. How are things? What are you focusing on these days?

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