HADD Training Method



  • Hi VT, all fine here, well done on the 21 miler.  For me it's 4 weeks to go until Frankfurtimage

  • Andi, hope all went well at the loch Ness marathon.

    Teknik, 4 weeks till Snowdon for me, good luck at Frankfurt.

    VT, seems all good news from over the pond.

    Seventeen mile fell race yesterday, within one mile I wanted to call it a day, glad I did not but feel really tired today, so no running till Tuesday.

    DD hope the shin problem resolves itself 

  • Good to see you here Tek.image

    Moks - fell race ... ouch. Fells are for walking up, no running. image

    VT - bice long run with MP ... those ones are the best to nail.

    Well, Nottingham was interesting.image

    Taking a leaf out of Marigold’s blog (Steve Way), I got up at 5am, got changed into kit and went straight out for a jog - he does 12 minutes but I covered only 0.85 miles in 8:18 … it was enough to get the legs moving. Then had 4 x pieces of white toast and a banana and plenty of water. We eventually managed to get the 3 youngest kids up, ready and in the car for a 6:25 start on the 75 mile drive … stopped off en-route at the last service station on the motorway where I had an espresso (image), toilet stop and Lucozade sports drink. Then we struggled into Nottingham and eventually got parked near the start line at 9am (planned to arrive earlier but my navigational skills let me downimage and I ended up in city centre traffic). Just about enough time to get organised, “vasalined”, a tree-stop (porta-loo queues were epic), and to the start line with about 15 minutes to go.

    I guess there were about 10,000 runners – but most were doing the half marathon which shares the same start but peeled off before 11 miles (it was weirdly quiet after the split - oh and my family waited at the wrong 11 mile marker!!image). Anyway, I could see the 3:30 pacer just behind me at the start line, so knew I was in the right place. From the start I was absolutely focussed on running 8/m (had carefully calibrated my foot-pod at MP and was watching the “live” pace) … missed the 1 mile marker but at 2 miles I was happy to see “15:57” while HR was 133 bpm (76% maxHR). So, for once, it seemed that I might be able to run at the MP I’d seen in training!! However, it was obvious by now that this was going to be a hot day – it turned out to be 23 Celsius in the shade (and I made it 27 in the car on the way home). But I kept my 8/m pace going pretty meticulously … 1st 5 mi in 39:58 (78% maxHR), 2nd 5 mi in 40:01(80.5%) … halfway at 1:44:59 … 3rd 5 mi at 39:48 (82.6). In hindsight my HR was climbing too quickly … but I put that down to the heat at the time. I came through the 20 mi marker at exactly 2:40 (although I reckoned later it was 19.9 mi … so in reality the 4th 5 mi was probably 40:52 at 83.8%). I’d run most of those first 20 miles with a fella who was also chasing 3:30 - he started talking to me at about 1 mile … I’d let him run ahead a few times on the uphill parts as I watched my heart rate but invariably caught him back up afterwards. He was beginning to tie up after 20 mi and by 22 mi he decided to slow down … we’d already dropped about 20 s/mi in those last 2 miles together but I was pretty sure I wouldn’t regain them as my own legs started to stiffen. 23 and 24 were done solo at 83% maxHR but the pace was now down to 8:40/m … then the inevitable fatigue kicked in, the legs locked up, the HR dropped and I really struggled those last 2.2 mi at about 9:30/m. So, 3:35:10 in the end … average HR was 81.3%. About 2 and a half minutes faster than London and a much more sensible race. In hindsight, 8:05/m or 8:10/m might have taken me to the end at even pace … probably what to do in 4 weeks’ time. I’d only risk 8/m pace at Dublin if the HR was lower than I saw yesterday.


  • Perfect until 18, acceptable until 22, worrying until 24, painful until 26.2 ...

    1,    8:05    133 bpm
    2,    8:05    133 bpm
    3,    8:00    136 bpm
    4,    7:54    138 bpm
    5,    7:55    139 bpm
    6,    8:07    139 bpm
    7,    7:57    139 bpm
    8,    7:55    142 bpm
    9,    8:02    142 bpm
    10,    8:05    142 bpm
    11,    8:00    143 bpm
    12,    8:00    143 bpm
    13,    8:02    144 bpm
    14,    7:57    146 bpm
    15,    7:51    147 bpm
    16,    8:04    147 bpm
    17,    8:08    146 bpm
    18,    8:02    148 bpm
    19,    8:19    146 bpm
    20,    8:19    146 bpm
    21,    8:17    146 bpm
    22,    8:23    147 bpm
    23,    8:37    145 bpm
    24,    8:45    145 bpm
    25,    9:19    140 bpm
    26,    9:31    137 bpm
    26.2, 2:01    138 bpm

  • Andi how was Loch Ness?

    Moks that's some fell run!  Good luck with Snodimage

    Dr Dan I really thought you were going to nail it this time - but 23C is way too high for a reasonable HR print.  Well done, fingers crossed for cooler weather in 4 weeks' timeimage.  Hope you recover quickly.image

  • DD, the times and pace up to mile 22 match mine to a T.

    Well done anyway, good luck on the next one.

  • Dr.D, as always, good write up image

    No big write up from me as feeling underwhelmed (always feel like this afterwards). If your interested the splits are here.

    4:41:42 so a PB by nine seconds! By halfway I was on target for a 4:22 so again, died really badly in the second half - something I will correct for next year.

    Some rest now then base building, next planned race isn't until Fort William in July. I've not done any proper subLT work so now is the time to start methinks.

  • DD, congrats on another marathon in the books. I'd say you ran quite well given the hot conditions. You nailed your pacing and gave it a good shot. Really, there is only so much you can do when the engine starts to redline. Well toughed out and good perspective for the next one. And I'm betting the next one will be cool weather and may allow you to sit at 8/m without having your HR increase as quickly. Could be all the difference. And not to mention the fitness boost this race will have for you.

    Roy, your race sounded tough, but good! Congrats.

    Tek, good luck on the upcoming race. As to names, I don't put much stock in any of that...at least one person w/the crazy names is no longer posting here. Come on back!

    Andi, nice job on the PB! Improvement is improvement so well done. We'll see what the next iteration brings w/some subLT work, eh? Personally, I'm now wondering whether I should have been doing more formal speed work the past few weeks, but will stick with the plan and see.

    DD and Andi, how are the legs today? Doing the marathon shuffle? Hope you guys heal quickly, especially you Dan. What is the plan for the next month?

  • So mentioned a subLT LR run from Saturday (10 easy, 10 subLT, 1 and change cool own). Below are the stats. Did another subLT yesterday (10 w/7 at subLT) and fast miles were about 6:50 per...HR at 80-81% on those. Legs a bit tired on this shorter run as certainly not recovered from the LR yet. Now will doing easy running until Saturday's 10K. Feeling like I may not be fully rested for that but thought it more important to get the LR and subLT in for the marathon than skip one for the 10K. Regardless, 10K fast (whether on tired or rested legs) will be a good stimulus for the marathon.



  • Well done Andi ... you'll see great improvements once you start regularly running subLT sessions.

    Great running VT - definitely best to sacrifice the 10K freshness for the extra time at subLT. I have to say that I did not miss the lack of speed-work on Sunday ... I felt stronger than I did in London in April despite not running faster that LT.

    Plan now is to rest this week ... run just easy next week ... MP/subLT work in week 3 ... easy in week 4.

  • Txs  VT and Dr.Dan and yup, 9 seconds is still a PB and probably have been gutted if it was 9 seconds slower image

    Sounds like a decent plan Dr.D, not your typical taper but guess the build up hasn't been typical either.

    Good luck in the 10k VT, whats your goal time?

    Managed 30 mins easy today, day #1 of my time based HR running, have decided to ditch pace on my watch and just monitor the current HR trying to get it lower on hills and ignore pace in the knowledge (nay hope) that over the next 2-3 months things will improve.

    I'll also start subLT work but not for the next few weeks and will build up (very) gradually.

  • Brian61Brian61 ✭✭✭

    Congrats to Andi on a shiny new PB - good luck with the new regime.

    DrDan, there is always going to be some slow-down at the end (unless you are elite!) so it's all about decreasing the slow-down to a minimum. I think the long progressive runs help with this, both physically and psychologically. Well done on a great effort! And all the best with the next one!!

    VT, Hope you come out unscathed after the 10k.

    Next big hurdle for me today. First consecutive run since my PF. 45mins yesterday felt ok, see how I cope with 60mins today.

  • Brian61 wrote (see)

    Morning all,

    Chick, how long have you been in Germany, and what do you do for work? 

    Basically all my life until we moved to the UK in 1998 image We returned in 2010.
    I'm a translator and permanent jobs are hard to come by. Most stuff is freelance which is rubbish. You have no assignments for weeks or months and suddenly 3 or 4 at once meaning you have to turn away business. Bah. In the end I found a permanent job in a law firm, specialising in real estate law. It's a boring subject but it pays the bills image
    Hope your consecutive runs go well.

    Congrats to Dr. D and Andi conquering 26.2 at the weekend. Well done, boys.

    VT: such impressive stats! I'm in awe. Oh, to see 6:50 on a sub LT run for just one mile would make me veeery happy. Not going to happen though.

    Still struggling through a number of slow runs each week. I think my achilles is better but I'm so paranoid that any run over 6 miles turns into a run-walk-stretch routine. I'm simply not brave enough right now to tempt fate ...

  • Just to digress slightly, am I correct in thinking this is total bollocks  http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/04/determining-your-lthr.html

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Ecce/Andi well done fella - PB is a PB.  Do take it easy for a few weeks to recoverimage

    VT wise words, and awesome subLT statsimage.  Good luck for the race on Saturday..

    Dr Dan good plan, enjoy the few days with your feet upimage

    Brian hope everything holds together for the 60 mins run today

    Chick there's nothing wrong with being sensible - ages until Spring so enjoy the short and easy runs

    Shoes mmm, strange that his definition is based on 30 mins on your own or 60 mins with mates or a race!  Huge difference between the two readings, methinks!

    10 mile sub LT for me today....

    1)   1m - 7:36(7:36/m) 163/77%
    2)   1m - 7:44(7:44/m) 173/82%
    3)   1m - 7:45(7:45/m) 174/82%
    4)   1m - 7:39(7:39/m) 178/84%
    5)   1m - 7:40(7:40/m) 177/83%
    6)   1m - 7:44(7:44/m) 176/83%
    7)   1m - 7:42(7:42/m) 175/83%
    8)   1m - 7:45(7:45/m) 179/84%
    9)   1m - 7:47(7:47/m) 179/84%
    10) 1m - 7:48(7:48/m) 177/83%

     mile 9 was uphill, so reasonably happy with this...

  • Teknik - is sub LT pace the same as your proposed marathon pace

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Shoes I'd like to say yes, but I'll probably chicken out and run at 7:5ximage....I'll aim to stay under 83% until half way, then scare myself with my usual massive drift image

  • Txs folks image I'm guessing I did wimp out a bit  at Loch Ness as I felt pretty good today after 2 30 mins recovery runs this week. Wind was up and Ferries were being cancelled so headed for the TM and managed 60 mins at 10:10 pace with an AHR of 65%.

    Sounds good but my HR was constantly climbing and peaked at 74% so, my question for the day is how do I get my HR to 70% and keep it constant? keep on just plodding along (took 4 miles to hit 70% for the first time or speed up a bit to get the HR up earlier then reduce speed keeping the HR at 70% with the aim of running longer at that HR and (given) pace? TM was flat btw.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Ecce ... you'll probably struggle to keep to 70% on a treddie over 60 minutes just because of the heat build up. Whatever, I wouldn't get too hung up on that number so long as you're runnign easy effort. What will make to difference (once you've recovered from the marathon) is the subLT sessions ... this is from one of the links at the start of the thread (but edited with the HR ranges at the minimum).

    "So week 1, maybe you do 2 x 20 min @ 80% Tuesday and then 30 or 40 min @ 80% Friday. Next two or three weeks, maybe stay at that HR, but get the sessions up to 2 x 30 then 60 min continuous for 80% work, and then maybe start to ease in something like 2 x 12 min, 2 x 15, 3 x 15, 3 x 20, 2 x 30, 60 continuous for 82%."

  • Txs Dr.Dan, am planning on keeping things easy for a couple more weeks then start with the subLT stuff. I was quite surprised that just before the marathon I only managed 7 1/2 mins @80% (8:30mm's) when fresh so aim to start about there and build up to 20 minutes before following your post.

    That said, I 'ran' for almost 4 hours at 80% last week though the pace was a good 2 mins/mile slower - methinks I agree that subLT's will greatly improve my Marathon time and the next one isn't until July so no excuses lol.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    I just saw your splits Dr Dan. I'm guessing youre still a little frustrated but I can see your progress - well done.

    Did 4Xgoal pace long intervals last week.


    Just started tapering down for Abingdon this week. Looking at 16mi goal pace this weekend


  • DD, how are you feeling? Andi? Hope the recoveries are coming along. Dan, saw this article and thought I'd post it. Not sure if it is helpful but can't hurt. http://www.active.com/running/Articles/Running-Back-to-Back-Marathons.htm?cmp=291&memberid=126578850&lyrisid=44237678

    Brian, how did the back to back go? Hope all is still good.

    Chick, glad to hear things are on the mend. Cautious is good for right now. I'd easily chuck the races, etc, just to still be able to go out and run.

    Tek, really nice subLT session. Swiss precision there. You are looking good for the marathon! The pacing is always straightforward until you get close to the race! For my part, I've decided to run my own race independent of pacers this time around.

    Nayan, you too are looking in good form. Hope the monster 16 miler at pace goes well.

    So ran the 10K race today. Was a nice race featuring our local running clubs. 55 degrees and rain...but in a good way if you know what I mean. Legs felt the weight of recent session all week but managed to feel somewhat fresh at the start. Stats are below (my garmin actually was right on this time). Miles 1, 4, and 5 were uphill. Overall, felt really comfortable miles 1-3. Then 4 & 5 hurt a bit up the gradual hill. Legs back under me mile 6 (but I thought it was mile 5 so was hanging back a bit at 6:30 pace). When I saw the 6 mile marker I shifted and let fly. 4:50 pace for 1/4 mile shows I haven't lost all my speed but certainly could have run a more aggressive final 2 miles. This was my 3rd 10K (all done this year). Previous 2 were 42:2X and 42:1X, so I'll take 40:35 as a nice PB. More importantly, good vibes to feel as strong as I did as I look forward to the marathon in 2 weeks. Was really secretly hoping to break 40, but think that will have to wait for next year (when the plan hopefully will be to train for only 5K to 1/2 marathons). There is a local 5K next weekend but am thinking that might be tempting fate.




  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Nice 10k there  VTrunner.  Is the progress from 42:xx a by product of your overall training or hav you had to do anything specific for 10k?

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Dr Dan hope you enjoyed the rest weekimage

    Ecce good luck with the post-M recoveryimage

    Nayan fantastic running - hope the big race pace run goes okimage

    VT nice PBimage, congratulationsimage

    Last 20 miler for me this morning - last 8m at MP.  Splits below...

    13) 1m - 7:42(7:42/m) 166 (78%)
    14) 1m - 7:57(7:57/m) 172 (81%)
    15) 1m - 7:49(7:49/m) 177 (83%)
    16) 1m - 7:54(7:54/m) 167 (79%)
    17) 1m - 7:57(7:57/m) 174 (82%)
    18) 1m - 7:53(7:53/m) 172 (81%)
    19) 1m - 7:31(7:31/m) 175 (83%)
    20) 1m - 7:50(7:50/m) 175 (83%)

    Very happy with the lack of drift despite all the early miles.  Much colder here today, which helped a lot...image

  • Nayan, just a byproduct of overall training as I have just been doing the HADD stuff for the past couple years. This course also wasn't quite as hilly as the one where I got the previous time.

    Tek, nice work on the final "long" LR. As you say, very stable effort there and good paces to match. You should be all set now as you taper down. I'm still debating doing another 5K next weekend (the weekend before the marathon).

    Wife let me sleep in today so will be doing my LR in the afternoon. Man did it feel nice last night knowing I could sleep instead of getting up at 5!

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    vtrunner. That's encouraging. I'm hoping my 5k and 10k reap the benefit of this and the next spring marathon cycles without too much extra work. 

    Goal pace run was a good Un.  If nothing goes wrong it'll be 7:40 till mile 23 and then we'll see.  edging from easy pace up to goal pace over two miles seems to help keep a lid on heart rate. I was trying to do that over about 800m previously. 



  • VT,  that's a massive improvement during a year at that pace - congratulations, you deserve the lie in!

    Nayan, as others have said, looks like your peaking at the right time image

    Teknik, great LSR with the mp at the end.

    Post mara recovery runs all looked good this week, short and at a decent pace (for me) with an average HR below 70% but today was the club run, 45 mins 'easy' over some rough terrain (aka a new forest road) with an elevation of 129 metres in 4.3 miles so ended up with 10:03mm's and 74% AHR.

    Weekly totals... 19.22 miles in 3:14:07 (10:06mm's) with 70.21%AHR

    Now, has anybody heard from/seen BeDe recently??



  • Nayan, what is your maxHR? Just wondering what the upper 140s HR is of your max. Agree that you were nicely hovering around 7:40 w/very little drift. You are dialed in!

    Andi, glad to hear the legs are working well this week. Haven't seen/heard from BeDe in quite some time. Think it might have been right around when he got married that we stopped hearing from him (coincidence?image).

    Today logged 16 miles on some sore/tired legs. Actually, the DOMS hadn't hit yet when I set out, but as of tonight am somewhat stiff/sore. First few miles I just felt tired but then by 3rd mile fell into rhythm. First 8 done in 8:10-20 range and last 8 at around 7:45. Overall was 8:03/m at 72% maxHR. Glad to have this week in the books (50 miles total). Tomorrow is a rest day.image

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    I reckon my max is 183. So high 140s is what 80% max

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    VT image - great 10K and a really good follow up long run. All looking good!

    Nayan - looking good for Abo. image

    Tek - that's a great MP finish to a 20! That should give you some confidence.

    Ecce  - good to see you're already back up and running.

    I did my first run since the marathon today ... just 3.3 miles at 8:27/m but at least nothing felt broken. image

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