HADD Training Method



  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Training went well … mileage was a little down on the previous campaign but with added bike commuting to/from work in order to top things up. I managed 4 x 20+ training runs, each with a good dose of MP work in the final miles and settled on 8 min/mile as my MP for the first marathon at Nottingham,  so a sub-3:30 target. I maintained that on race day until 20 miles, then slowed a bit until 23, at which point the legs really started to suffer … I came in at 3:35:10, having taken 11:32 to cover the final 1.2 miles. I was pleased with my pacing … but it was the wrong target MP, at least on the day (which was very hot).

    And so to Dublin! I took a full week off after Nottingham, and then did 2 weeks of 32/33 miles with lots of MP work, and finally a week of just 10 miles. Those final 10 miles (Thurs & Fri) were very laboured – I didn’t feel good at all. On Friday evening I was coming down with a bad throat and was not feeling too good … dismay was setting in! Saturday was a busy day … we got up early, packed the car and I drove 160+ miles to Holyhead to catch a ferry to Dublin to stay with Mrs D’s cousin. During the drive and the 3+ hour boat trip, I ate and drank well. I still felt rough and tried to get an early night on Saturday night but didn’t sleep well. Nevertheless, despite my worst fears, I actually felt a lot better on Sunday (the clocks went back which helped getting up) and so headed down to do the “International Breakfast Run” (have a look at this footage to see what it was all about … you might even spot me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWn6NHDTzmA). I was glad I did this as I met up with parkrunfan, his speedy OH and five of my club-mates who had also made the trip. After a 5K run, a mock battle, Irish music and dancing, and some breakfast, I then headed across town to the Expo to collect my number … I didn’t hang about as I needed to get off my feet. I did just that … and continued to eat.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Monday morning was race day … it’s a bank holiday in Ireland. I went out for an 8-9 min jog at 6 am and realised that it was a very breezy day. Oh dear! I then had breakfast (banana and 4 pieces of white toast & honey) and got organised, before getting a lift into Dublin at 7:30 from my cousin-in-law-in-law … I was dropped right at the starting zone which was great. I got organised (it was surprisingly mild, so I got rid of the outer layers), re-vasalined, and joined a queue for the toilet. The next 30-40 minutes were plagued by an irate naggy woman on the tannoy system telling everyone to clear the baggage area and go to the start … over and over and over and over again. I hadn’t dumped my bag at this stage and wasn’t going to leave the queue, so had to endure this continual nagging. I was losing the will to live but the more she nagged, the more I decided I’d hold my ground and get to end of the queue. Eventually I got to the end, did what I had to do, passed on my bag and then went to the start zone for the first wave. I worked my way through the crowds and positioned myself well behind, but in sight of, the 3:30 pacers …I had no intention of going with them. The man on the main tannoy was giving a really stirring speech right up until we set off. I liked him much more than naggy woman.

    The start was mad … very congested and poorly marshalled. There was a sharp right turn close to the start which was tricky … there were also multiple obstructions in the road (the thin metal lane-separators/bollards in the middle of the road by St Stephen’s Green were lethal), and no barriers to stop the spectators getting in the way or the runners from crossing pavements and central reservations. But I survived Mile 1 which was 8:26 at 76% maxHR. Miles 2 and 3 were still congested but things were moving better … 8:06 and 8:05 at 78% maxHR. However, I knew already at this stage that the legs were not in the same shape as they had been at Nottingham. I knew much of miles 3-7 involved a long climb through Phoenix Park, so I settled into a sensible rhythm and let folk pass me by … 8:34 (80%), 8:32 (80%), 8:02 (79%), 8:28 (79%)… it was very exposed but the wind was luckily not directly in our faces. We then turned around and came back down the hill on the outside of the park (7:35, 79%) before re-entering the park – at the 8 mi marker, I jumped behind a tree for a 33 second “break”. Miles 9-10 were mainly downhill/flat and came out at 7:38 and 7:55 at 80% maxHR… HR was a little high for comfort but for the first time I was starting to enjoy the running. Things were a bit tougher going to halfway 8:13 (82%), 8:05 (82%), 8:24 (82%) … I got to half way in 1:47:25, a good 2:30 slower than Nottingham. Not everyone was finding it tough … the end-of-race stats showed that 1085 people had overtaken me between 10K and 13.1 miles! Mile 13-15 were hard … right into the wind. I hid behind other runners as best as I could … 8:30 (82%) and 8:33 (81%). Things then become something of a blur from 15-20 miles (8:33 81%; 8:20 82%, 8:46 82%, 8:34 81%, 8:25 81%, 8:20 83%) … I was tagging onto folk that were going at my effort level and just trying to focus and survive. I got to 20 miles at 2:46:04, now 6 minutes slower than London and Nottingham. I’d been slowing … but I’d also been seeing a lot of people starting to suffer and I’d been overtaking more than had been coming past me – in fact the stats later showed that I’d overtaken 358 people between 13.1 and 21.1 miles, despite me finding it tough going. Miles 20-24 took me 35:18 at 83-84% maxHR … these were the killer miles with a number of climbs. So many runners were hitting the wall at this stage …

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    … but even though I was suffering and slowing on the climbs, I knew I wasn’t finished just yet. Things could be worse - I could be married to naggy tannoy woman!image

    I needed a wake-up call … and it came in the form of the 3:40 pacer & group coming past me. Now way was I going to get a 3:4X time … no way! I tagged on. Now I had a purpose, I started to feel better. The mile from 24-25 was 8:30 at 86% maxHR … we were working hard and I could feel it. I started to lose contact for a while but rallied. 25 miles came … the pacer says were within schedule, so I hold on. A sign says 800 m to go! I realise I’m going to get to the end in one piece! I start to push – really push! I’m going through runners like a knife through butter – everyone is suffering but I’m full of running. I actually start to get quite emotional at this point. Then I see the road narrow and a timing clock … the end! I pick things up and absolutely sprint for the line (I hit 98% maxHR at this stage) … but as I cross it I realise it’s the 26 mile point and not the finish! 320m to go … feck! But today is my day, so I pick it up and go again … it’s hard to pass all the dying runners,  so I take a line right up the left barrier. I’m uber-focussed now. A wall of sound hits me from the left – the family! Emotions want to surface but there’s still work to do … and finally I get the blue carpet and do another sprint finish. Despite almost blowing it, the final 0.2 was at 7:20/m, ending up with 3:39:10. The stats tell me I gained another 817 places in the last 12.2K … so 1175 places in the 2nd half, despite slowing by 20 s/mi.

    Job done! I collected my bag, met the family and we had a picnic in St Stephens Green … then I went to the pub for some well-earned Guinness and later joined a Bram Stoker/Halloween march around the city centre. Surprisingly the DOMS did not strike nearly so badly this time … clearly running on empty is what does the damage. So I have finally ran a marathon all the way to the end, without the 5-10K hobble… the slowest time to date (post heart-op … before that I had a 4:50 disaster) but the best race execution. Now, if I can get fit, fast and thin in 2015, I should be able to break that 3:30 barrier in 2016.


  • Yup, absolutely brilliant write up (and run of course). I like the fact you included the 'introduction to Dr Dan as well.

    Sadly I've still not worked out what relation your cousin-in-law-in-law actually is to you? Mrs D's Mums sisters son/daughters husband or wife?

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    My wife's cousin's husband. image

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Sounds like a much more solid performance Dr Dan. Nice one

  • Epic report and a strong finish, Dr. D. Well done. Don't forget that you would still have had Nottingham in your legs, so this makes your performance even stronger image

    No running to report here. Picked up a cold last week and of course (my respiratory system being the weak point of my body) it turned chesty . Coughing up lots of green gunk at the mo (green face). But it'll pass. Just a shame it had to come now that the weather is perfect with lots of sun and no wind image
  • Ah, txs Dr Dan, makes sense now image

    Yuck Chick, fingers crossed it clears soon! You must live down South? no sun here and wind gusting at 40mph+

    Last months stats.... 86.56 miles in 14:29:07 (10:02mm) and 69.88%AHR.

    2 secs/mile slower than my fastest paced month and lowest ever monthly AHR.

    November probably won't have such a low AHR as I'm embarking on some 75 & 80% runs but hoping to see my first sub 10 min mile average pace for the month.

  • I'm up North, Andi. But it's the North of Germanyimage
  • lol and oops, should have remembered that chick image

    Kind of a rest week for me, 18.8 miles in 3:02:33 (9:42mm) and 71.81% AHR. 

    12 months ago I ran 18.21 miles in 3:20:02 (10:59mm) and 74.47% AHR.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Definite improvement over the year Ecce.

    I tried a tentative 3.3 miles yesterday at 8:40/m ... calf muscles were tight but nothing seems broken. Will try something similar again later today.


    EDIT: as predicted ... another 3.3 miles at 8:43/m. Calves still very tight.

  • Roy, seems you got a deep look into your guts in that race. Very well done to push through all the mental and physical pain. I agree, you should be satisfied when thinking of what you overcame in the course of that race. From my own perspective, my run where I collapsed was excruciating for the last 5 miles. That pain served me well on the follow up as the normal fatigue didn't seem like anything. Hopefully your Mont St Michel race will be the same. Rest well and good luck w/winter base training.

    DD, thanks for the nice summary of you! Interesting to hear your history and gives good data for the rest of us.image Super impressive stats for runners passed too. Incredible and I'm sure it was a great tonic for your mental resolve. I think w/2 marathons in the past month your legs may need an extended rest! Well done again on a successful long stretch of training. Only upwards from here. 

    Chick, hope you are feeling better now.

    Andi, solid stuff there. Pretty incredible fitness gains on display.

    Nayan, how you doing?

    As for me, I ended up running like a rookie last week. I told you guys I ran some MP miles Tuesday, then on Friday against better judgment I did it again (7 w/6 at MP...and it was like a hot knife through butter!). On Sunday, my PF on the left foot started barking in the final mille of a 7 miler done easy. Not bad (this flared for a while after the spring marathon too), but brought me to my senses. I have taken the past 2 days off and today foot feels back to good. Will take today off too just in case and will ease back into things. Must protect what I have!!image


  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Hi VTrunner. easy 5ks and a steady paced 10k last week, and settling back into a normal but (still lower volume) week now.

    Chucked strides at 5k pace into an hour long steady run and tomorrow will be my first tempo run.

    After this reverse taper the next focus is a 10k race to benchmark in early December. Hoping to crack 41mins


    I see youre being cautious. Sounds very sensible

  • Thanks VT and take things easy for a few weeks or at least like me unwinding till after xmas.  Will be running a few short fell races and one x-country this Sunday.

    Back on the treadmill this week 5 miles at 80% of  MHR works out 8.14 min a mile.




  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    warm up / 6mi of 6:50 miling / cooldown. managed to keep HR to mid 160s for most of the tempo stint though it blew up towards hrmax in the last km or so.

    HR has been slightly hard to keep a lid on since Abingdon. Feeling OK but clearly theres the usual  lingering post marathon effect to work out over the first 4 weeks or so.   

  • Nayan sounds like a sensible and well disciplined approach there. I'm sure that will serve you well for your training. Good luck for the 10k.

    Chick I hope you're well now.

    Ecce well done, that's some improvement over the year, great to see!

    DD Excellent write up! Thanks for sharing. I think your words capture the occasion very well and put into perspective the time you did it in.

    Should have mentioned at the very start when I said I'm HR training, I'm actually aiming for sub 153 HRs using the 180-age Maffetone formula. Aiming for 150 bpm which also happens to be what HADD suggests I use for all easy running at the start, and this seems the most appropriate thread for HR training on the forums.

    Enjoying running more around that 150 bpm now after the initial settling in period, still have to work on keeping HR in check but finding that it's easier to run more when it's, well, easy!

    3.2 miles at lunch time yesterday. 150 avg HR, 10:35 min/miles. Flat, cool, no wind.

    Went out for 4.48 miles later on too, 148 avg HR. First time doing two runs in the same day actually. image

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    VT - thanks. Meanwhile, keep a lid on that post-marathon euphoria! I won't be able to claim I kicked your ass over 10K next year if you're injured.image

    Nayan - nice going with the 6:50/m tempo so soon after Abo. What %maxHR is mid 160s for you? Are you in the subLT or the LT area?

    Moks - good work on the treddie! I like the idea of unwinding till after xmas but suspect I'd be obese if I did that.

    zicksi - I recall you maxHR being around 200 bpm, so 150 bpm is indeed in Hadd easy territory. As you said, the benefit is that you can run more ... and also have more in the tank on session days.

    I took Weds off (enforced due to being too busy - but a good thing in hindsight, given the rubbish legs on Mon & Tues). Yesterday's run of 4.35 mi was better ... didn't have the tight calf muscles. I threw in a 5K progressive section building up to someting like MP ...

    1, 8:37/m, 128 bpm; 2, 8:26/m, 132 bpm; 3, 8:10/m, 136 bpm.

    Hoping to get out again later for 5.4 miles.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Dr Dan.

    I reckon 185 is max so that was 89% area really. I was taking 4:15-4:18/km are threshold pace in the buildup and had 4:10/km as 10k time trial pace.

    Got some heartstrap issues clouding matters  but the numbers are here:



    If the last marathon cycle is a guide I need 3-4 weeks post marathon to reverse taper and would then be looking to see how well the whole cycle has stimulated an improvement at 5mi/10k.

    After a one week break this is the second week of running drawing to a close now  - next week will be more of a regular schedule I think. 

    How's your recovery shaping up?

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Nayan - 6 mi at 89% is a great session. Nice!image

    I'm aiming for about 27 miles this week and perhaps low 30s the next week ... I have a 10 mi race coming up on 16th Nov which won't be pretty but it's the 30th anniversary of when I did the race the last time (won by Steve Cram), so entered it a while back. Main plan is to get the legs back together this moth and then to be back into proper training at the start of December.

  • NayanNayan ✭✭✭

    Sounds about right I think - I'm much the same here: LAst week vvery light and 30mi this week, reintroducing circuit training too. Should be pushing 40-50 mi/week by the back end of Nov and then a 10k race for early Dec.

    Taking foam rolling and core work more seriously now. 

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Welcome back legs ... been a while since I've seen a "6". image

    ...following on from yesterday's 4.35 miles with 3.15 as a progressive.

    1, 8:37/m, 128 bpm 73%
    2, 8:26/m, 132 bpm 75%
    3, 8:10/m, 136 bpm 78%

    ... today was 5.4 miles with 4.2 as a progressive.

    1, 8:30/m, ? bpm
    2, 8:13/m, 132 bpm 75%
    3, 7:41/m, 140 bpm 80%
    4, 6:53/m, 153 bpm 87% image

  • Moks, things sound good - I'm up to 6 mins at 80% now so a ways behind you still.

    txs zicks, it's strange but even though I'm running faster and usually at a lower AHR I feel as if I'm actually running slower! maybe it's because the easy runs are now, well, easy??

    I'm sure the Maffetone thing works as it's very HADD like. His 180-age gives me 134bpm (just under 72%).

    Dr.Dan, glad to hear your legs are back already! Good running and so soon after the (almost) b2b 26.2's.

    Nayan, I struggle to get my HR up to 89% let alone run miles at that percentage! Kudos to anybody that can run like that.

    Am currently  unable to upload runs to either connect.garmin nor my training centre (since the last enforced upgrade). This will be my last Garmin I think (insert swear words as appropriate).

    So, I was playing with numbers the other day and worked out 'possible' marathon times using a recent 1 mile time of 7:46. McMillan suggests a time of 4:22:41 and Horwill says 3:58:25.

    Now, I know predicting marathon times from 1 mile times isn't particulary wise but have mapped out 5k & 10 target times to try and hit whilst I improve my subLT runs. Long way to go mind as I'm only up to 4*6 mins as of this week image

    Current PB's 27:31 & 56:56
    McMillan      26:58 & 55:59
    Horwill          25:49 & 53:17





  • Andi / Ecce,

    I also am  unable to upload from my Garmin since the last upgrade  image


  • Hmm, I'm having problems with my Garmin too... different one though, maybe not related.

    My watch froze and became unresponsive just after 9pm last night. image

  • Hi all. Good to see you have your legs back, Dr. D image

    Garmin trouble sounds frustrating. I had a time a few months ago when mine wouldn't upload. After a while it sorted itself. Hope this one is short lived.

    Did my first run in nearly 2 weeks and it was shite. My lungs refuse to take in air which is kind of bad when you run. I reckon it's the aftermath of a bad cough. Hope it goes away over the next few days as I've really had enough now.
  • Btw, taking about Garmins being rubbish: has anyone tried this new TomTom GPS watch that measures HR without a breast strap? I wonder how accurate HR measured at the wrist might be...
  • Hey chick, hope you're feeling 100% soon. Sounds like you done the sensible thing to take some time off.

    4.5 miles today for me despite the technology woes, managed to get a rough idea of pace using some mile markers between parks and a basic stop watch. 11:06 min/miles says the pace calculator. No idea what HR was but it's better than nothing!

    Garmin probably getting sent back to manufacturers next week, hasn't responded to charging or a master reset but the warranty should cover it.

  • chick, I too hope your back to 100% soon - it's almost time for Christmas Parties image

    As for the new TT GPS I've no idea sorry and right now I think I'll start looking for alternatives to my 910xt though it should have some miles in it yet (just that the Garmin site sucks bigtime).

    zicks, I hope you get your Garmin exchanged and soon although there is a lot to be said for naked running and might even try it myself (or more likely as I'm a stats slut I'll just hide my watch in my pocket so I can see whats what when I get home).

    Terrible run today, should have been 60 easy minutes but the wind was up and it was only when I got home I saw it was 49kph so no wonder it was hard. 

    5.73 miles in 60 mins (10:28mm) and 75% AHR.

  • Hello Folks, just coming up for air after a hectic week. Running wise all is good. Got about 25 or 26 in last week. A couple of 7.5 milers and then 10 on Sunday. Can tell I'm still not fully recovered but getting there little by little. Was fun to have my 7 yr old daughter join me Sunday for a bonus 0.75 miles cool down after my run. She got her gear on and just  bounced along next to me babbling nonstop. So cute.

    DD, seems you are getting back and have retained good speed. I'll be extra careful not to get hurt so you have proper hound to chase you on your 5 and 10Ks (you're faster at the short stuff so I'llbe chasing you!image). Nayan, likewise, seems you are coming out the marathon in good form.

    Andi, I like the goals. Don't like hearing about the Garmin as I have the 910XT as well. I'll be sure not to upgrade anything!

    Chick, rough stretch for you. Hope you lungs open up in a hurry!

    Supposed to get up to 70 w/sunshine today. Think I might work in some striders on an easy run.

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