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Chick - get well soon! Usually takes a few runs to clear out the lungs.
Andi - well braved with that wind.
zicksi - bad luck with the Garmin.
VT - good to hear you have a training partner. ENjoy the sunshine ... it's pure misery here.
5.4 mi easy today ... should be able to do an unofficial timed 5K tomorrow (some students are being trained to run a sporting event), so will try out some 10 mile pace for Sunday. Not sure what 10miP actually is at the moment ... at best about 85% maxHR pace I'd guess?
If i'm running 4 or 5 times a week for 50 minutes to 5 hours per run, if one of those runs I get a bit carried away and push my average heart rate up closer to 75% than 65% am I being really stupid and semi ruining the effect from the other low heart rate runs? Does it have to really be all of them for say x months to really get the best benefit? and then introduce higher rates?
I've got two ultras between now and July and i might throw in the odd marathon as a training run, but if I'm just going slow up to July, will i get most effect by being patient and just sticking with really slow stuff every run until say Xmas then start adding in the harder stuff?
Booktrunk no you are not causing any harm.
The Hadd doc states 70-75% Max HR as easy runs if you can get it down to 65% your aerobic engine is well tuned already.
I for example introduce one 80% MHR run after 3-4 weeks of 40-50 miles a week.
When I get no drift on the 80% run I will add more pace into the equation.
Today I ran 5 miles at 80% MHR pace = 8.07mile
VT, good to hear Miss VT was out with you, make the most of the fun runs as I'm sure you'll soon be struggling to keep up
Still no joy with the watch and getting slightly peeved about it.
Dr.Dan, was scary wind and found myself stopping and stepping off the road several times for traffic larger than a medium sized car. Too windy to be safe out there.
Good luck with the 5k and 10 miler and guess the latter will be run to HR if your not sure of pace?
Booktrunk, Moks has it right and if anything 65% might be a little low? I've been too hung up with getting my AHR below 70% in a month and now I've done it (once) shall try and keep the AHR below 73% from now on.
So, my 3rd go at subLT's today and on the TM as the wind was a'blowin again today. Tried 2x12min @80% today with 12 min slow jogging. Long way to go methinks as they came out at 8:13 then 8:30 and averaged 8:22mm's and 81.91%
Next week I think I'll try 2x15min and try a steady 8:30 for both intervals.
Just read VT runners post on the 3:15 thread. Can you train the Hadd way without a heart rate monitor, or without keeping a check on your heart rate? I don't have a heart rate monitor and am not intending on buying one. Are there any other ways of getting Hadd paces right?
Thanks Mocks and Ecce
Fishy - it would be difficult to do Hadd without a HRM but you can still train based on the same common-sense base-training principles ... basically, all runs at easy pace apart from 2xMP sessions (MP being what McMillan calculator says is your ideal MP based on shorter race times). That MP will get you in the right zone for Hadd's subLT sessions.
Unofficial 5K didn't happen as I was the only runner ... so I decided to do my usual 5.4 mi lunchtime run at easy pace instead.
I have been lurking on here for some time and have a question on the back of Booktrunk's question. When people have put their HR data on the thread it seems to always be AHR and no max. Is it over sweating the issue worrying about the occasional spike in HR? I suppose the question is how important is MHR compared with AHR When Hadding?
And.....thanks for all the great info on this thread. It has been really useful and reassuring.
If it's just a spike then disregard.
If your heart rate is drifting upwards steadily and markedly over the session then In all likelihood youre running too hard/too hot/hydrating poorly.
much of the hadd running asks you to run with very firm control of heart rate, which may mean slowing down as the run progresses.
Hi Fishy Dr.Dan has it right and would be difficult to follow HADD without a HRM or knowing your MHR.
Dr.Dan, if that were me I'd chalk it up as a victory lol
Good luck with the slower stuff Booktrunk but remember, Rome wasn't built in a day and whilst I'm sure you'll see improvement in 6 weeks or so that's probably not enough time to build a decent low HR base.
Welcome Chris and looking forward to hearing what your doing HADD wise right now. Nayan has it right (as always) though living where I do makes it hard to keep a steady AHR so it does go up and down too much (like the terrain).
Had the drive from hell on the way back from the Vets today (but did come home with our 20yr old kitten). Heavens opened and the flipping wipers decided to stop working intermittently - not fun at any time nd especially on flooded single track roads.
Got home and had a quick 30 mins on TM - 3.01 miles @66.49% AHR and MHR 72.87% (that's for Chris).
Today for example I plodded 10.3km with an average heart rate of 123 BPM, my max is 184/185 so around 67%
it's very slow going but it does feel good.
At the risk of being in the wrong forum slower often feels better
Looking at your run stats your still doing run/walk in preperation for the Spine? Slowly slowly catchee Monkey - you'll be fine.
As an example of things taking time, 12 months ago I ran 3.22 miles in 38:11 (11:51mm's) @71.81%. Comparing that with today's run above I'm now 90 secs/mile faster and an AHR that is 5% (10bpm) lower. Just need to repeat that a few (ok several) more times and I'll crack the 4:29:29 target
Yep I'm pretty much going to plod, just get loads of plodding in before Spiney
i'm not going to be running in long stretches, so just building up the miles
Probably a good idea Booktrunk, then, after the spiney thing recover for a few weeks then start again with some decent base building for short(er) runs
Went out to the shed today to get the post and felt the full force of 60mph winds so TM it was. Not sure what to make of the run, it was meant to be 10 mins w/u followed by 40 mins at 75% and 10 mins c/d.
It took more than 20 mins for my HR to reach 75% @9:13 pace so let it rise for a further 20 mins to a MAX of 80% then cooled down. Average pace was 9:31mm and 71.81% AHR.
Getting closer to my goal of a sub 60 minute 10k and sub 70% AHR.
Dr Dan & EC - Thanks for your replies and suggestions. I was really trying to find out how slow Hadd paces are in comparison with the easy paces in P&D (not sure if they're allowed to be mentioned on here). I can see the sense in running very aerobically as a way of building up mileage for a marathon.
I have been lurking around the forums for a while but have a quick Q or four.
I have done some low heart rate training before (Maffetone) and want to move back towards it again. I would like to give the Hadd training a try this time. I have a few races (mostly half marathons, two trail jaunts, one 20K, one 30K, both climbing a few 1000m mountains) booked up over the next 6 months- about 1 per month until May.
I want to get on with the aerobic base work- will the racing be highly detrimental to my progress?
I feel like I should be doing speed work but with a 60 min 10K and 2hr 20 half, should I just focus more on getting a better aerobic base?
I also like trail running and need to work on my hill climbing leg strength. Am I right in thinking this will not fit well. Would Hadd in the week and one harder, hilly long run on the weekends render things meaningless??
Would I be better off just waiting until the end of the series and focusing on Hadding to build my milage for a late Nov marathon?
Many thanks for your patience with the (probably) obvious questions...
The idea at least at first is to clock up a lot of easy miles. No reason why a good chunk of these cant be on trails or hIlls. Racing hard 5ks each week wouldn't sit so well with early stage hadding but the kind of stuff you have in mind isn't so bad. I'd be selective about the number of events where you really go for it pace wise though.
Thank you for the answers. I am glad to hear that I can get stuck straight in to the training. Hopefully the lower intensity will let me run more often each week.
I'l be sure not to hit the pace too hard in all of the races, a couple of them are more like interesting challenges than pb chasers.
Next step, Heart rate test. I'll do it at the end of my (not so) long run tomorrow.
So what sort of weekly mileage do all you Hadders reach? What sort of build up to higher weekly mileages is suitable for an easy run with 2xMP sessions a week? Also, is there a recommended percentage of MP miles over easy running miles?
The links to documents at the start of the thread suggest you build up to 50 easy miles per week before trimming this a bit and introducing more 'quality' work. Personally I think mileage is a bit more subjective. One person might thrive and improve on 40 miles a week while another might struggle to improve if they don't do 70.
id focus on being able to run easy for an hour and not see your heart rate drift up out of the 'easy' zone.
Nayan - Thanks. Hadn't seen the links, but now I have, of course it's all explained. This is very new territory for me as I come from a background of fewer weekly runs and lower mileage, but all at an intense speed; and combined with a lot of cycling and gym work. I shall follow your advice and start building up to 1 hour easy. I've already found it surprisingly difficult to run so slowly
Nice work Fishy, started my Maffetone experiment yesterday. Keeping it simple and building up the miles and running as much as I can, all at 131bpm max (180-49).
I started it yesterday and the key seems to be to get the mile times down as far as possible at the same HR. Decided not to complicate it with tests etc just pound away at that HRmax and see what happens. Mostly on the same courses.
Having read the very useful stuff here about this type of training I will build up to 50 miles and not do any anerobic work, everything for at least 8 weeks at 131bpm max. If I am still happy with it after a couple of months I will take it all the way to London Marathon to get a proper take on the long term nature of this training.
The strength work and faster running has its place but the main point of hadD seems to be to focus on what most folks lsck - an aerobic base.
Fishy, it's funny but this time last year I couldn't understand how/why people struggled running slowly but now I'm running around 90-120 secs/mile faster I too struggle to run at last years pace - it's works though!
Doylie, I think Maffetone is very similar to HADD and have thought about switching to that as I think it would help me get around my undulating courses. 180-55=125bpm which is as near as dammit 66.5% of MHR for me so even 'easier' running.
Lots, if not most people consider HADDing to be just easy running but if you follow Phase1 to completion you'll be doing 70 mins at 90% MHR and I'm struggling with 2x12mins @80% right now.
Ecce you have made some brilliant gains there. consistent miles is a big key so no injuries. The way you are going you will smash a 4 hour marathon before you know it.
i still sort of follow this. well for 3 runs a week I run at 73% of Max which is 8.25 min miles. The rest of the time I am on the fells as looking at doing the bob graham next year, and it is impossible to keep the heart rate down.
Spen. Read lots about the Bob Graham round, if you think your up for that, you have all my admiration, one hell of a run.
Off to run a new fell race up the Brecon Beacons only 3 miles but one hell of a start up hill, HR will be off the scale very quickly
Ecce I think spen is right about you breaking 4 hour marathon
Txs for the vote of confidence spen and Moks though it may take a while to shave 41 minutes off my Marathon time.
Just took a look at the bob Graham round - looks hellish hard to me.
Weekly stats... 28.91 miles in 4:49:02 (10:00mm) @71.28% of MAX. 12 months ago it was 15.62 in 3:13:52 (12:25mm) and 72.87% of MAX
Hey Fishy,glad you got to read the background on the approach. It's a compelling read the first time and the logic of it convinced me to try it. And it has certainly worked. I typically run 50-65 miles/week when I'm fully into the base phase training (meaning when I am doing the 2 MP (subLT) sessions and LR per week). My week usually goes 5 days running, 2 days off (e.g. Monday off; Tuesday 13 miles (10 at 80%); Wed. 8-10 easy; Thurs 7-8 easy; Friday 13 w/10 at 80%; Sat off; Sunday 16-22 miles). If I'm not in marathon training, I usually keep the LR to 13-15 miles. Getting to the starting line would simply have all days easy. Shoot for medium long runs Tuesday/Friday, LR Sunday and shorter the remaining days and just build the mileage from there to eventually get to your goal mileage per week. I wouldn't add in the fast stuff until you can go at least 10-13 miles at steady HR (70%) w/no loss of pace. When you get there and the weekly mileage feels good (all done at easy efforts) you can add in the 80% sessions. At least that's the way I've done it but perhaps others can chime in?
Last week was a good one. Only ran 4 days but got striders in Tues, then 11M Friday, 5 sat, and 12 yesterday (and this run felt effortless and HR stayed low and steady...finished w/a full tank of gas). Hopefully that will carry over. Beginning wk5 post marathon.
Also, welcome to all the new folks!
Spot on Hadd advice from VT.
I did my 10 mile "race" at 85% maxHR ... ended up at 7:13/m. Actually, it was 7/m with pace drift over the last 3 miles. So I was a good 4-5 min slower than my best from 2011, but still 7 min faster than I was when I last did the race 30 years ago.
Did 5 miles tonight planed 80% MHR, only needed to get up to 78% 126BPM pace of 8.05 secs a mile, with no drift.
Try again next Tuesday