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Madrid Marathon
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That's interesting Neil. I am convinced that it is essential to have something to boost you from about 15 miles on. (so first one at about 5 miles sounds about right) What little I recall of my previous marathon (29 yrs ago!), I was going really well up until about 17 or 18 miles then really struggled. In those days gels and the like were not really used so I had only had water. Really similar experience today. Despite the tough route I ran really well and was having to cociously keep the pace down. I also had some tough hills at about 11 and 13-14 miles. They were hard work but I ran out of them ok still maintaining a good pace. Certain that if I had taken fuel on board I could have gone on. How many more 20 milers are you going to do? I'm down to do four (including one race). Might have a good go at the race to see where I'm at and drop one of the other 20's. Are you going to race your hilly half Neil or go easy?
I'm coming round to your way of thinking Bob. By the way, I'd been meaning to ask you about your Paris experience 29 years ago and would be interested to hear anything else you have to say about that race. I must say, it sounds like you did a really good run today and are building up your fitness and endurance all the time. It'll be interesting to see how you go at Newport.
I'm planning on doing four more 20 milers as per the training program. Everything I read tells me that 5 twenty mile long runs will stand me in good stead for the marathon. The penultimate 20 miler will be in a race called Maratest. It's 30km but I'll get the other two ks done in the warm up. The plan is to do it at the pace laid down in the training plan rather than race it. My last 20 miler clashes with the Madrid Half four weeks before the big race. I suppose I could make up the missing distance by doing extended WU and CD but I'm not sure if I'd really do that on the day. Most likely, I'll bring the last 20 miler forward a week meaning the last real long run is done 4 weeks before the marathon which seems a little far out and preoccupies me a little. I know I asked you about this a while back, but any further views?
Re your question about the hilly (La Latina) half, my plan is to run it with an open mind and see how it goes. The first 8ks or so are flat or downhill. Then things start getting tougher. Local wisdom very much recommends not going out too fast. I'm going to try and run at my predicted race time based on the Aranjuez 10k. However, if I feel that I'm struggling and not going to get a good time, I'll drop the pace.
Hi guys. Bob your run today sounds exactly what happens to me. I don't feel a boost when I take a gel, but I find I don't flag so assume the gels are doing something. I often run without them too just to play with the empty feeling so I know I can push through it, but I prefer running with a gel or two for those over 20 miles. I recommend trying both with and without though and make your own mind up!
Well done on the 20 miler Neil
Sounds like your training is coming together perfectly.
The weather was fine for me today, but I realised my plan told me to rest so I took the dogs for a walk instead. I felt guilty like I was skipping a run even though I wasn't!
Nothe, I dont think you have any need to feel guilty after your exploits!
1985 Paris - different route to the one used now. Hardly any spectators just bemused Parisians looking askance over their coffee cups and through the Gauloises haze! I dont think I had a plan - just to not go off too fast. I ran with a friend and I would think in those days probably set off at 8-8.20 pace. It was quite flat and I can remember feeling really good at half way. My friend was really struggling and he told me to push on. I stayed with him and then at about 16 miles I really started to suffer. Organisation was poor and the drinks stations were quite limited and very crowded so I think I missed a few. I must have become very dehydrated and remember stopping at about 20 miles and just stood and drunk what seemed like pints of orange drink. Not surprisingly I then felt quit sick and jogged/walked the final 6 miles. This wasnt made any easier by passing a sign that said 40km, running for about 6 or seven minutes and then coming to the next marker that said 39 km! I finished in about 3.54 which was disappointing as I think I had hoped for 3.30 ish. Cant remember much about the training other than I know I was doing quit big mileage (for me) 50-60 per week. Nice medal though!
Thanks Nothe. I was a bit sore for a couple of days afterwards but absolutely fine now. +1 to what Bob says about you not needing to feel guilty about not running last Sunday.
Bob, thanks for your account of the '85 Paris marathon. I can imagine some of the locals being a little bemused by it all with a bit of shoudler-shrugging being thrown in for good measure. Interesting to read about the drinks stations, I heard something the other day about runners not being able to take on water before 10 miles back in the day. Your own race sounds a bit heartbreaking to be honest and hopefully it'll be different in Madrid.
Might try the long run without gels this weekend, or at least not take any on the first part. I'm going to be in Burgos, which gets very cold in winter and the weather forecast is horrendous so it'll be a good character building effort! Did 3 x 1600 metre intervals last night. Absolute torture but he times panned out quite a bit better than when I did the same session a month ago, so happy.
Hope you've both had a good week.
Ha! Just about to go and do my 3x1600. Looking forward to it even less now! I'm going to try with gels this weekend. Not convinced though by either the taste or my ability to open them on the move. I dont seem to have any problem with eating proper food on the move so I will probably revert to energy bars, bananas, jelly babies and Lucozade Sport.
With regard to the final 20 mile run, I looked at my plan and it was also 4 weeks out. Having read various views the concensus does seem to favour 3 weeks. I am able to switch my plan so that happens, but I have my doubts as to what real difference it will make. I think I'm going to stop reading all these various threads, get the runs in and then get out and run the bloody thing. Lets face it, we're not goingto be breaking world records, are we? Anyway, I've got something else to worry about now - I've got a place in the Ride London 100 mile cycle! Have a good time in Burgos - I'm off for my torture now.
If you can eat proper food on the move without problem I'd stick with that and forget gels. I hate the things but can't eat properly so don't have a lot of choice.
You're right, no point in over-thinking everything. The marathon I felt best at was the Disney one and my final 20 miler before that race was 6 weeks beforehand. Plus I didn't taper or anything. I think it really comes down to how you're feeling on the day and that you don't charge off too fast at the start of the race.
Hope your session goes well, and great news getting into the RideLondon100. I did that last year - it's a fantastic event
Thanks Nothe. I'd sort of forgotten that I had entered and never dreamt that I would get a place - never had a sausage through ballots before -London Marathon, Olympics, last years Ride London etc. Luckily I wont have to think about training for that until after Madrid. Never cycled more than 40 miles but should be ok. I understand it isnt too arduous? What did you think?
Oh, havent been for my intervals yet - too scared!
It's fine. There are a couple of interesting hills on the course but nothing too bad. Leith Hill was the steepest if I remember right, but it was really short so something you should be able to tough your way through.
I hadn't cycled further than 60 miles when I did it last year and I managed it fine. Lots of fun, lots of friendly other riders - just an amazing day really.
I then kinda cycled home from London over the next few days which was another story entirely (470 miles!)
I wont be doing that, even though its only 160 miles!
You were right Neil. That was tough, even at the pace I had to do it.
Oh well, 5 weeks ticked off. Do you think it will get harder or easier i.e harder because the distances and tempo increase/ or easier as fitness improves? Hope its not too cold in Burgos! I'd wager its not as wet as it is here.
Gutted. I got my "Commiserations" pack from RideLondon100 today, so I'll not be there this year
I find the training stays about the same through the plan. As I get fitter the distances ramp up, so I usually feel knackered most of the time. Then a bit of taper at the end and I'm raring to go!
Sorry to hear that Nothe. I expect you'll find something else to occupy your time though! I was quite pleased to get in as it will serve as a means to overcome any anti-climax post Madrid.
I'm up so early because I've just had a phone call from the Environment Agency to tell us that the Wye is going to flood. Although I live close enough to see it, my house is so high up above the flood plain that if we were affected the whole of Hereford would be submerged. They do it by postcodes rather than taking into account the geography.Today is a rest day for me as well so I cant even go out for an early run. Oh well just have to watch a re-run of England's Murrayfield triumph!
Blimey Bob, not a great start to Sunday morning! Glad you're on high ground and hope your neighbours are ok. It's something else this weather at the moment. Like the UK, the north of Spain has taken a real pounding this winter, with a lot of serious damage. Burgos was good thanks, with a couple of good, heavy duty lunches. Weather was cold but could've been worse.
Your question about whether it'll get harder or not is a good one. I was stuggling a bit at the beginning of last week after my first 20 miler but came through quite well in the end. When I was following their half marathon program last year I felt very leg heavy two weeks before the race but recovered ok, so have my doubts about it getting easier. I'd like to think the long runs will get less taxing.
Nothe, sorry you didn't get into RideLondon100. I think you're right about over-analyzing things sometimes and I can be pretty guilty of that. Your Disney experience is good to note as my last 20 miler will probably be four weeks out.
Did just over 29km yesterday and got really lucky with the weather. It started raining a bit as I was finishing but later got heavier and that turned to snow by mid afternoon. Anyway, didn't take any gels or isotonics this time, just water. Only started to find it hard in the last three kms. Difficult to say if this was due to glycogen stores being used up, or just the fact that the wind started to get up and I was running into it in the last stages of my run.
Have a good week guys.
Good effort Neil
I wish I'd been as lucky on Sunday. I did 11 miles, at least 7 of which were in pouring rain and strong wind. One of those runs that I was really glad I'd achieved the run once it was over, but it was hellish while I was out there!
Bob - that's a heck of a wake up call. I hope everyone will be ok. There's been so much flooding of the Wye in recent years I don't know how people cope.
Hi Nothe. Luckily there is very little new housing built on the flood plains so that when they flood, as they do regularly, not too many properties are affected. I feel desperately sorry for the people on the news, it must be devastating. There hasn't been a lot of rugby played here over the last few weeks but fortunately that has been the only real casualty.
Did my first 20 miler today. Had it all - jelly babies, gels, energy bars, lucozade! It worked because I didnt have that fatigued feeling and was always able to summon up the strength to keep going. Mind you, legs were very tired once I stopped. Tried really hard to keep to the suggested 10.07 minute miles. Moderately successful as I kept it at about 9.55 for the first 6 miles. But then got into a rhythm and was more like 9.40 for the next 10 - still holding back quite a bit. More or less 10.00 for last three. So 3 hrs 16 mins @ 9.49.
Neil - how much above marathon pace are you doing your long runs? I just dont know how I would cope with having to run them 2 mins a mile over mp. That would be 11 min. miles for me.
Thanks Nothe and well done on your run. That can't have been much fun in those conditions and you must have been delighted to get back indoors.
Well done to you too Bob on the 20 miler. Sounds like you had a really good feed as you were going round. To answer your question, I'm trying to my long runs at the paces suggested in the training plan, i.e MP + 28 secs, 37 secs per km, or whatever it maybe. I'm having the same problem as you, especially early on when I keep trying to slow the pace. The runs usually come out slightly faster than specified which isn't great I know, especially on this plan.
Ok guys, came the closest so far this morning to defaulting on a planned run. It was only a tempo run 7 miles with 5 at 8.37 pace. However, had to do it on the treadmill because it was like the end of the world outside and whether it was the effect of Monday's 20 or not, I almost stopped after 3 miles. Bottom of both feet felt like they were on fire, legs were very heavy and I had to dig deep. Told myself 'when you dont break 4 hours on 27th April, giving up on days like today will be the reason'. Was really pleased that I toughed it out and am under no illusions that there will be plenty more moments like this all the way to Retiro.
Take care Nothe the storms are heading in your direction.
Well done for carrying on, that sounds like hard work. Sounds like your feet and legs were rebelling after your efforts at the weekend. Mind you, I'd find running 7 miles on a treadmill really hard work no matter what. So boring, but what else can you do with the weather like it is?
Heavy rain / sleet is all we've had today so far. I hope that's as bad as it gets as I don't mind running in that. Tomorrow claims 25 mph winds + heavy rain. Joy - 6 mile run today had me soaked and freezing and I've got the same tomorrow. Brrrrr!
Well done for carrying on Bob. I had a similar experience with my short tempo last Tuesday, after my first 20 miler. One thing I would say is that if the legs feel really fatigued maybe substitute the session for a recovery run. I did this a couple of times last year and bounced back really well in the next key run. It's a fine line I know, but much better to show a bit of discretion than get injured.
Re the feet, I also had that burning feeling on the soles of the feet last week. I rolled a small bottle of frozen water under each foot for about 12 minutes each side a couple of times and that really helped. The feet and ankles also felt looser, so maybe try that?
Take care Nothe. Not good getting soaked. No waterproof running jacket?
2 x 1200m & 4 x 800m intervals off 400 RI for me tomorrow. Something to look forward to......
Yeah I've got a good waterproof jacket. But when it's that heavy rain gets in wherever it can - mainly down my neck, soaking up from my leggings, etc! Lovely.
I need to have a go at these interval things. I'm doing far too many threshold sessions and no real speedwork. I need to do a bit of research and work something out to maybe improve.
Well, last night's interval session was interesting. Felt very tired generally all day yesterday and the thighs were quite heavy, even when I was walking in the street. Got to the park and during the 3km warm up was constantly thinking about sacking the intervals and making it a 10 or 12k steady run. However, decided to experiment with the first rep and possibly do a half session. Did the first 1200m rep ok, in fact two seconds quicker than the required pace. Same with the second one, which really surprised me. The first 800m rep was harder but I was only a second or two off the pace. Decided to continue and the next rep drifted a bit, but could've been worse. The penultimate rep was a disaster and I thought about knocking it on the head but then got a bit angry and decided to do the fourth (and last) 800m interval which was more or less right on the money. So I managed to do the full set and, apart from the penultimate one, it was a good session. I'm gradually getting better at intervals and it was interesting to see what I could do tired on heavy legs. Then during the cool down the legs started feeling a lot better and I generally recovered pretty quickly. Less tight than I thought today too, so it's encouraging to feel that I'm adapting and progressing, even though it wasn't the perfect session.
Yoga and then an 8k slow run this evening.
How are your legs now Bob? Did you try rolling the frozen water bottle under the soles of the feet?
The horrendous weather in the UK made the news here last night. Here, areas close to the River Duero are on red alert and there have been 9 metre waves on the Atlantic coast. Thankfully, things look like they are going to get better over the weekend and into next week. Hope you are both ok and have had a good week's training.
Hi Neil, I've got that session to do this afternoon, a lot slower than you had to do it (7.40 min per mile). Quite interested to see how I find it. Last weeks 3x1600 was quite a tricky one. Your experience yesterday seems similar to mine. I think we are going to find this happening more frequently. However, unless the problem is injury related, the benefits of toughing it out are huge - psychologically and physically. Went for a steady 5 miles yesterday, not on the plan, and felt really good.
Generally I am happy with the way things are going. Meeting each weeks targets without too much difficulty. Happy now that my first 20 miler is done. I know now that, as long as I run sensibly, completing the marathon should be quite straightforward. What I dont know is what sort of time I will be able to achieve. Breaking 4 hours would be a great result for me but I know it will be touch and go if I have a good day, and could even be closer to 4.30. Will have a better idea after the half marathon and 20 mile race coming up. Need to get close to 1:50 and 3 hours respectively to indicate that sub 4 is even a possibility.
Havent got round to my feet yet. Had a bit of an issue with blood pressure this week, I know it's a topic in which you have an interest Neil. Been getting dizzy spells when standing up. Went to the doctor and am monitoring my bp at home. I have been on medication for high bp for several years and from what I can see so far, my bp is going quite low (within the normal range) at times and its probably causing the dizziness. I suspect that because of my improved fitness, the medication I am on might be a bit high for me now. Read somewhere the other day that its a good idea to stop bp medication 3-4 days before a marathon due to dehydration issues. Not sure about that - might ask the doctor.
As your legs have recovered well Neil, I think you ought to go out and run the last six miles of the marathon course. Nothe and I would be very interested to learn what its like and I'm sure you'd enjoy it. Just a thought!
Just finished the interval session Neil and, like you, found the 800's tougher than the 1200's. I do mine on the treadmill which really helps with keeping the pace. I think I would find it very tricky maintaining an even pace otherwise. My take is that if it was comfortable it wouldn't be doing much good and as it is achievable, albeit with a little stress, then it must be just right in terms of difficulty. I also find these sessions very good for concentrating on maintaining form when under pressure. That is going to be very important when the going gets tough in Madrid. I can very easily drift into uneconomical breathing patterns, head rolling and upper body slumping when tired.
Hi Bob (and Nothe). Yes, it seems that we are having similar experiences, which in a strange way is comforting to know but probably not surprising given that we are following the same training plan. What you said about toughing it out was exactly what was going through my mind after the interval session on Thursday night. Although it wasn't the perfect session, I really had the feeling that I had learnt something and that I was also improving. Did 8k yesterday evening at a slow pace, the best part of 2 mins slower than my intervals the night before. Unlike you, didn't feel that great but it's done now.
I'm also generally happy with the way it is going and, again, agree that barring doing anything stupid I should get round ok. Hopefully, I'm not tempting fate here. I guess our respective half-marathons and longer races will indeed give us an idea of respective times but there's also still a lot of training and, hopefully, improvement to come.
Sorry to hear about the blood pressure thing. However, it sounds like your BP might be on the low side now and that could definitely be a direct result of improved fitness, which is a good thing. I'd definitely speak to your GP about dropping the medication 3 to 4 days before the marathon. I guess much depends on whether your medication is a diuretic or not. I took beta blockers (awful things) and diuretics for years. I'm down to 10mg a day of Enalapril now and have had good blood pressure for some time now on this regime. Let me know how it goes.
Going back to the intervals, yes, we need to stress the body a bit to get some benefit. Re your comments about form, I could feel it collapsing on the latter reps on Thursday! My left leg seems to splay even more than usual. I guess doing them on the treadmill must really help with pacing. It is tricky maintaining a pace outside, although where I run midweek is a 1200 metres flat loop for runners with a post in the ground every 100 metres, so that kind of helps.
My 8k run last night was in the park where I do my intervals, so not on the marathon course I'm afraid. I try to run in parks as much as possible here as there is no waiting for traffic lights to change and no pedestrians to weave around etc. However, my long run tomorrow (second 20 miler) will shadow a good 6 to 8ks of the course. I'm also going to scout out kilometres 33 to 37, which I don't know so well, in the coming weeks and will report back.
Ok, my lunch of rabbit and barley stew is almost done so I'll leave it here. A friend of mine downloaded a documentary film for me called "The Spirit of the Marathon", so I've got that to look forward to later. Is it a tempo run for you today? Cheers!
Rest day today. Did my tempo run on Wednesday. Long run tomorrow or Monday. I'm on Ramipril 10mg. They are obviously working. BP seems to be hovering around 110/68 with fluctuations either side of that depending on time of day but never above 126/74. Doesnt bother me taking them, sometimes get a slight cough, especially if they are doing the job - wont have to pay for them in a couple of years time either! Hope you enjoyed the stew, sounds delicious.
Enjoy your long run, will do mine tomorrow or Monday depending on the wind. What distance are you up to Nothe? Suppose your programme is rather different after your exploits of recent months.
Hi Guys, sounds like you're both progressing well
Yeah my training plan is all over the place so I'm not sure where I am just now! I'll find out at Loch Katrine in a few weeks I guess. I'm currently doing 30 miles a week with the longest run in Feb being 11 miles. Next weekend is a 6.5 miler on Saturday and 15.5 on Sunday and I'll be hitting 40 miles a week, increasing to 50 miles a week 2 weeks after that. Before Madrid I'll have done 2 x 22 miles and a sneaky marathon for training runs! I'll be running Loch Katrine at training pace though as Madrid is the real target.
Somewhere I need to start doing intervals as well which I've not done before!
Yes I think you ought to. Why should we be the only ones to suffer! Have a good week.
Looks like you'll be building up the mileage again nicely in the coming weeks Nothe. Those long runs added to what you've already done this winter should have you nicely ready for Madrid. When is Loch Katrine? By the way, do you ever do tempo runs?
That seems like a good blood pressure to me Bob. How's the dizziness been when you stand up this weekend? I get that sometimes too, more so in summer. The rabbit stew was really good thanks but I definitely ate too much! I tend to have a few treats on Saturday afternoon and, while I don't go beserk, need to watch it a bit so the Sunday long run goes well. Definitely felt a bit heavy and lethargic this morning.
Anyway, did 32.63km this morning, about twenty and a quarter miles, in 2:50:42. It was an uphill, down dale kind of run on mixed terrain mainly in Casa de Campo with a couple of long climbs as well as shorter, steeper ones. There was also a fair bit of descending and this was really jarring on the tops of the thighs, I think I actually preferred the uphill! The last 5 or 6ks were quite hard going and I had to kid myself a bit to see it out today. The km splits were all over the place, probably more to do with the ups and downs. Loads of people out running and large posses of mountain bikers, some a bit self-absorbed and not always aware of what was going on around them. I also saw a mega group of runners, at least 50. It looked like some kind of organised training session for the marathon, or maybe the half, which is three weeks earlier.
So the La Latina half-marathon for me next Sunday. I think I'm going to do my cross-training tomorrow and planned tempo on Tuesday but then taper as I want to run a good race. Just not sure how much to cut down. Thinking about a 6 to 8k slow run with half a dozen 100 metres strides thrown in, or maybe do a reduced interval session, i.e 3 x 800 with no running on Friday or Saturday (nor beer or unhealthy grub).
I see you (Bob) have got Newport a fortnight today. Are you going to taper a bit for this, or just run through the training plan? Did you get out in the end today?
Nice run Neil, well done
I had to lookup the definition of "tempo run" and consider what I do. I get confused with all the terms! Yeah I'd say I do tempo runs twice a week on Thursday and Saturday. Long slow run on Sunday at around marathon pace and some hills, then Tuesday tends to be relatively easy also with hills (one of them a monster!).
I should probably have a go at turning some of Saturday's run into an interval and see how that goes.