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Hi Neil. Having a move away from the plan last week and this coming. So, did an easy 5 miles on Tues, 14 miles Weds. and 16 miles yesterday. So big mileage week for me (48+). Have decided that 6 weeks out I can afford to have a real go at next Sunday's 20 mile race. Going to set off at 9 min miles and see how long I can hold it and how close to 3 hours I can get. Taking several gels with me as I dont think the energy bars/jelly babies are giving me a boost. Took Lucozade with me yesterday (it was very warm here), and without water I felt quite dehydrated. So gels/water is the new plan!
Was that the hill up past Plaza de España? Was the last 6k of your run part of the marathon course? What sort of temperature did you have today, was 18 C here. I like runnning in the heat but not sure how I'd cope with 26 miles in 25-30 C . If that happened I think I would just forget any times and set off at 10 mins a mile.
Yes, that was the hill close to Plaza Espa??a. No, the last 6km were alongside the river after leaving Casa de Campo. Too much traffic, too many people around late morning for running that. Temperatures similar to your's. It's quite fresh early morning however, even a little chilly. The weather is quite hard to predict in the spring here so could be anything. I'd be surprised (and bloody upset) if it was 25 to 30 C.
Probably happier with a few more miles in the bank, if only from a psychological aspect. The 20 will be a good test. It includes 3x 5.5 mile laps with a testing hill on each lap. I think the FIRST plan is a good one and has certainly helped me. I will get back on it after Sunday. Some would consider it foolish to do the race at marathon pace but I think I need to know how close, realistically, to 3 hours I can get. If I blow up, nothing lost, just readjust my expectations. Thinking back on the half marathon, I was chatting comfortably for the first 8 miles before leaving another runner, might just be under selling myself a bit - i'll find out on Sunday!
When is your next race? What will your plan be for that one? Am I right in thinking you have another after that?
My next race is the 23rd. A 30k called Maratest in Alcorcon. I'm going to hopefully run it as per plan, which is MP + 19 secs per km, so a training run under race conditions. It's 2 x 15k laps with one significant climb per lap (going on memory. The warm up will bring me up to 20 miles for the day. Then 6th April is the Madrid Half Marathon which I'm really looking forward to. It coincides with my last 20 miler so I'm going to do an extended warm up, say 5k and hopefully do a few cooldown kms after.
By the way, the half marathon on Marathon day has sold out, a bit different from last year. Just hope there's not been too many detectors from the original and long standing Madrid Half which is a splendid race.
Thanks Neil, appreciate that. Just getting ready, nerves starting to kick in! Haven't run all week as I had a slight groin strain. Went out Friday and all felt ok. Legs should be nicely rested both for today and the final big push before taper. Not sure what to wear as race starts at 10.30 so I will still be running well past 1.00 when temp. could reach 18. Think I'll go for the vest! Report back later. You going long today?
Think you should definitely go for the vest option. A far cry from your 10k race at New Year! Go well.
So, a very important lesson learned in the hardest way possible today. First of all it was 18c at the start and rose to 21. This is not an excuse, just a fact that makes the race I ran even more unbelieveable! I said I was going to go off at 9 min miles and see how long I could hold it. Well as soon as the weather turned out as it did I should have amended that plan and gone off at 9.30 at the quickest. Did I? Did I hell. For the first 5 miles I averaged 8.40. I did realise that this was somwhat foolish but too late alas. I then hit the hills on the first lap which slowed me and I hit the 10 mile in 90 mins. But I knew by now that I was in trouble and boy was I in trouble. At 12 miles I did contemplate fi ding the quickezt route back to the car and calling it a day. I didnt but the next 8 miles were the longest I have ever run (and walked!). I eventually fell over the line at 3.28. I felt awful. I must say I wasnt alone because for a mid march English day it was exceptional. I then had to walk back to the car. (about half a mile). It must have taken half an hour and I kept thinking I was going to be sick. I got to the car but just had to sit there for a while. Then I was sick. Felt a bit better and managed to drive home. Still felt a bit shaky up to about half an hour ago but ok now. I have never ever felt so bad at the end of a run.
So, new plan! I will not be setting off at anything under 10 min miles in Madrid. I want to get to 20 knowing I can finish. Today I most definitely couldnt. As I say a lesson learned the hard way but make no mistake - it is learned!
How did the leg stand up today. Was it hot with you. Perhaps you'll have to come to England for some warm weather training!
Crikey Bob. That doesn't sound good at all. I imagine you were taking on fluids and gels etc? I hope you are feeling a lot better now. Having had time to reflect, would you put it down to a combination of simply going off to fast and the hotter weather? As you say, it sounds like a salutary lesson. I think it'll be wise to start a bit slower at the start of the marathon and you can always grow into the race, as it were. I guess we all have ups and downs on the journey and today was one of the downs but remember that it was effectively one training session out of many. You'll be fine marathon day, just don't try and go off with the Kenyans at the start!
Leg stood up fine thanks, although the left hip was a bit tight at times, but that's not so unusual. However, the run went well and I noticed the benefits of having had some time off. Weather was warm here too. I imagine it would have been hard going in the Barcelona marathon this morning. Don't read too much into the weather at the moment with regards to how it's going to be on the big day. As the locals say, when it's like May in March, it's like March in May.
Sorry for the silence guys. For some reason emails stopped coming through telling me there were new posts, so I didn't think there were any!
Wow Bob that sounds horrible. Although I'm sure at the beginning it was nice to run in a bit warmer weather and maybe made you go off too fast. A lesson learnt as you say. Did you maybe drink too much as you were worried about the heat, or did you just go off too fast? I'm just wondering as the worst I've ever felt was after drinking way too much water at the Edinburgh Marathon last year. I felt so sick I had to keep walking even though my legs were fine, I thought I was going to throw up as I ran down the finish line, and once I'd finished I couldn't move for about an hour afterwards. Horrible. I remember it well so full sympathy on what you went through.
Hope the leg is on the mend Neil. That's the last thing you need just now as you're ramping the miles up. Good that the latest run went well.
My 18 miler was fine. I managed to hold on to the pace until the last half mile but that was expected as I was playing with working out when to take my gels. I decided to only take one with me and took it at 8 miles, knowing that would run out around 16-17 miles but wanted to see where. The answer was bang on 17 miles, so I know to take my 2nd gel between 15 and 16 miles. My route was nice and hilly as well, and I help 8:45 min/mile pace throughout so pleased with that. If I can manage that over the course of Madrid I'll be a very happy bunny!
This weekend is my "training marathon" at Loch Katrine. I'm very much treating this as a training run and a chance to check out my breakfast / gels / drinking during the run. It'll be cold and windy (it's the Scottish highlands after all) so not quite like Madrid, but unrelentingly hilly to a good test of where I'm at. I'm aiming for around 4:10 to 4:15 for the marathon, maybe slower as I don't want to smash myself to bits!
Have a good week guys.
That's very interesting Nothe. When I was sick it was just water, quite a lot of it, so you are probably spot on there. Because I went off too quickly I got very thirsty early on and drank each cup I took in full - usually I only have a couple of sips. Then I started taking gels which made be feel even thirstier. Legs just went at 12 miles. As I said, I have learnt my lesson and will definitely start very slow and build up in the second half. Will try this on my next LSR.
You are obviously going well judging by your 18 miler. Good luck for the weekend. Be interesting to see how you go and how the gels work.
Hyponatremia! Just looked this up. Caused by imbalance of salt/fluid. I sweat a lot, must lose quite a bit of salt. This coupled with all the water must have caused the problem. Nausea and cramps are typical symptoms. My calf was cramping from 15 miles - have never had this. In training just have a few sips every now and then. Will have to look into ways of replacing the salt and really watch the fluid intake. Still least I know and I suppose thats what training is all about. Thanks Nothe, you're not a doctor are you?!
Had two days rest after Sunday's disaster. Decided I would go out this morning and do a slow 10 miles. Got to ten in 97.19 and felt so comfortable decided to carry on. Proceeded to do another 10 in 96.51 giving me a very satisfying 20 in 3.14. Average pace was 9.43 and it never strayed 10 seconds either side of that. Didn't have a drink until 13 miles when I had a gel and some sips of lucozade. Had a few sips every mile and finished tired (probably due to Sunday's effort) but well in control. Total contrast to the weekend and obviously the way for me to go. This pace would give me 4.14 which I would certainly be happy with, especially if it didnt involve the sort of experience I had at Gloucester. If it turns out to be hot, I can adjust the pace accordingly.
If I start with the 4hour balloon I think I will end up near 4.30. If I start with the 4.30 balloon I will have a chance of getting closer to 4 hours and avoid inflicting all sorts of pain on myself. So, I feel I have sorted out the best plan for me and the experience of the weekend was worth it!
Sorry to bore you but wanted to share the lesson I have learned. Hope you are both well and enjoying the final big push.
Nothe, interesting what you say about over-hydrating. Don't know if you've listened to or read about what Tim Noakes has written on this subject but he's got some pretty strong opinions related to this. Well done on the 18 miler, sounds like it went really well. Is the loss of energy so acute that you really feel the gels running out at precise points of your run? Good luck for the Loch Katherine marathon this weekend. Let us know how it goes.
30km road race for me Sunday, my longest race to date. It's going to be a bit of a dress rehearsal, although I'm not planning on running it all out.
Hi Guys. Good to hear you've had a much better run Bob, and impressive managing a 20 miler so close to Sunday's run. Sadly I've managed to do pretty much everything wrong that you can do in a race, so anything I come out with is just from bitter experience. As I said I managed to do exactly the same last year and I've never felt so sick and had cramp at the end of the race bad enough that when I lay on the grass for a quick rest I was stuck for 30 minutes unable to get up! I'm now very wary of drinking too much. I try to just take a mouthful or two every 5 or 6 miles and leave it at that.
Neil - I can definitely feel the lack of gel to within a couple of miles but since I lost my weight 3 years ago I now struggle a bit with blood sugar or somesuch. For example if I don't each lunch till 2pm say I'll get dizzy and feel weird, which can be fixed quickly by eating a banana. So yeah I can definitely tell when I've not had a gel at the right point (within a mile or two at least), though it all depends on what breakfast I've had. Everyone's different though so I wouldn't base anything on my bizarre stomach
Thanks for the good luck messages. I'll report back how it goes. I'm trying to remember it's just a training run and not to try too hard!
Good luck with the 30km on Sunday Neil
Thanks for the Tom Noakes pointer. I downloaded a podcast last night: Trail Runner Nation which has an interview with Tim Naokes called "Are We Waterlogged?". Very interesting it was too, and fits a lot of what I've found. When I first started running I used to carry a water bottle with me the whole time and drank regularly as that was the advice I got wherever I looked. As my races got longer I drank more, felt weird, and often put it down to not drinking enough. That all peaked with how ill I felt at last year's Edinburgh Marathon. Since that I've stopped drinking at all for runs less than 10 miles, and drink sparingly and carefully for longer runs and everything has been going much better since.
Bob - I suggest you grab this podcast and have a listen. He described it fair detail what happens when you overdrink and it sounds very similar to your recent race.
I'll have a listen to that Nothe when I've got a bit of time. This is the link to his second interview on Marathon Talk. He speaks more about diet than hydration but it's interesting stuff. Not sure I agree with everything he says but I think he makes some valid points, especially when it comes big business constantly telling us what and what isn't good for us.
http://www.marathontalk.com/podcast/episode_142_prof_tim_noakes.php
You may already know this, but lunch in Madrid doesn't really get going until about 2pm so you may want to have a banana or two with as you move around the city! Similarly, dinner is usually from about 9pm.
Do you mind me asking how much weight you've lost? I was up to around 118 kilos 5 years ago but was down to 77.5 this morning. I'd like to lose a couple more before the marathon and then level off.
Having listened to the "Are we waterlogged" interview, I am convinced that this was my problem on Sunday. First water station (about 3 miles) I forced a whole cup of water down and then repeated that at each one. Even worse, as I began to feel bad, I was drinking two cups at each one further compounding the problem.
I have been running on and off for 40 years and have never heard of this problem. I am amazed that it isnt publicised more as it is obviously potentially very serious indeed. I would imagine that the majority of runners follow the 'drink, drink, drink' advice without realising the potential risk factors of such a policy. So pleased I have been enlightened.
Neil - I don't agree with everything he says either, but what he says about over-drinking really struck a chord with me and what I've been finding. Very useful thing to have pointed me towards
Weight wise I started losing weight "accidentally" so don't know how heavy I was at my peak, but from when I started taking count I went from 95kg to 68kg now. I'd like to lose another 2-3 kg before stopping but it's not a priority. Well done on your weight loss
Bob - I'm amazed that this isn't wider known, but perhaps it is all governed by the companies trying to sell product. I don't agree that just drinking water is the only solution as grabbing some carbs through a sports drink seems to help too, but then he's not looking at that position. I've felt much better and more controlled since I've started limiting my drink. I guess when you think about it the elites used to not be allowed to drink during the first 10 miles of a race and they still managed to run fast times, so drinking as much water as possible can't be the be-all and end-all of running quickly.
I think you are right Nothe about companies trying to sell products. It's a point that Noakes seems to make quite often. In the Marathon Talk podcast he also talks a lot about carbohydrate intolerance, cutting them out or down and strongly based protein diets, although he does say it's not the same for everyone. Well done yourself on the weight loss, by the way. I'll definitely listen to the "Are We Waterlogged" pocast in the next few days.
Excellent run Neil. Well done! Very impressed by the even paced splits. How did you feel at the end? Could you have kept that going for another 12k? Was it flat or hilly and what was the temperature like? Did you take any gels?
Started my week today with the 3x1600 session. Doing my long run Weds -giving 22 miles a go. That will make four runs 20 or over and will do maybe 2 more. Booked a 5 day metro pass for €14. Excellent value.
I'm back home after the Loch Katrine Marathon. What an incredibly beautiful course, and a very well run marathon. Only 101 people in it which is the smallest race I've ever run it. It's also brutally hilly which caught me out. I cramped up badly at around 21 miles and had to walk for the next 2 miles, then increased to a walk / run before finally bringing it home.
I managed it in 4:17 despite the cramping which I'm pretty chuffed with. I was aiming for around 4:15 so it shows I went off far too fast but I kept a very even pace until 21 miles so I'm very happy with that. And I can't see Madrid having hills like that
Roll on April now, I think I'm almost ready!
Good luck with your training this week guys.
Well done Nothe! Hope there arent anything like that in Madrid! Why do you think you cramped - just the hills? Did you have fuel? Are you doing any more long runs? Did you get the e-mail about the metro deal?
Well done again. Have a good rest this evening!
Thanks Bob, appreciate the kind comments. Yeah, I was really happy with the way I kept it together. I've been struggling a bit with maintaing the pace at the end of long runs recently. Ran it faster than planned but not flat out. Legs were heavy at the end but I wasn't bent over, hands on knees, almost retching, like I often am at the end of races. In fact, finished strongly, although quite a bit of the last two kms were gradually downhill. I think I could of carried on for a while the way I was going, although not sure about another 12kms. The course was two laps of 15km and there were quite a few long, gradual inclines and one steeper hill (not so long) at about the 12k and 24k point. Ran just behind three guys running together from about 13k and they were good, unwitting pacemakers. They dropped me on a climb just after 21k but I caught up with and passed one of them a few kms later which was a boost. Took two gels, one just before 10k and another just before 20k. Think they helped today. Also had half a banana at the halfway point. It was cold first thing, especially in the shade but warmed up and was about 14 degrees at the end. There was a fair wind at times too. Got a free massage afterwards too. So, happy with this. My left hip was really tight when I got up Friday and not perfect yesterday. Niggled a bit in the first 10k but then was fine. Anyway, 2:22:26 for 30k, a definite confidence booster after a bit of an up and down fortnight.
How were your intervals today? I always seem to drift quite badly in the last one of 3 x 1600.
You are flying at the moment Neil, marathon cant come soon enough I imagine! Because most of the people on here are now in taper mode, I tend to overlook the fact that we have best part of 2-3 weeks of really good training to come - can only lead to further improvement and consolidation.
Pleased to get the intervals out of the way early this week as its usually hanging over me throughout the week and I find it more daunting than the LSR. Completed it fine. Doing them on the treadmill really helps to keep it together towards the end.
Have a good week.
Not sure about flying but pleased with how yesterday went. I know exactly what you mean about the intervals. Well done for completing them anyway.
Forgot to ask yesterday if you (and Nothe) have one more race before the 27th April? I've got the Madrid Half in two weeks.
Have a good week as well.
Thanks guys. I think I was over enthusiastic with the hills and that's all the problem was. I've not had that before so I'll carry on regardless and see how it goes. I had my usual gels along with me but there were no sports drinks on the course. No idea if that made any difference. I'm aiming for at least one more long run - a 22 miler in 2 weeks time, though I might try a 20 miler this weekend to see how it feels doing long distance a week after a marathon. I've been offered a free place at the Edinburgh marathon a week after the Windermere marathon so it would be interesting to see if I could manage that
I got the email about the metro deal but not sure if it's worth getting - I fly in on Saturday morning and fly out Sunday evening. Would it save me money getting the metro deal? Most of my travel will be between airport and hotel!
Sounds like a great run Neil, well done. 2:22:26 is flying too. Maybe a 3:30 marathon is on the cards?
Hope all the training goes well this week
The metro deal covers airport-city so could be worth it unless you was thinking of getting a taxi. Im there Friday to Monday so I'll probably be moving around quite a bit.
No more races for me. Just need to decide what sort of pace to go for. Your races yesterday will have informed both of you what to aim for, my blow up at Gloucester scuppered my opportunity to have that knowledge. Wil probably use my 22 miler this week to test the water so to speak. Have really given up on sub 4 and would be happy with an enjoyable, fairly comfortable run in Madrid increasing pace from 18-20 miles rather than slowing to a near walk. I need to remember that a marathon gives you plenty of time to build a good time (especially if you are running for 4 hours plus) although that can be thrown away very early by going too fast and making for a very uncomfortable experience.
Oops missed your race question Neil. I've got a 10k in St Andrews planned, and possibly another 10k in London if I can get into it. No more long races now. I've got another 22 mile training run planned in a couple of weeks then I think that's it for the long distance.
I'll have another look at the metro deal since it covers the airport-city. I don't fancy a taxi, I like just being a zombie and going from one transport to the next without thinking