What type of shoe?

2

Comments

  • Glad to see that at least Coopsy appears to have latched onto the points I am trying to make.

    As he is a good standarrd runner and relatively light he can get away with lighter trainers. I am 12 stone and probably need a bit more cushioning than him (I'm delighted with the Adidas Supernova Cushion I'm wearing at the moment) while much heavier runners may need to wear something gargantuan like the Brooks Beast.

    So . . . the point I was trying to make (especially to those people who haven't been running for that long) is it is very important not to listen to the hype from adverts or the nonsense from Pirie.

    If you get shoes that suit your running style and your weight and can cope with the mileage you are intending to do, you won't go too far wrong.

    Don't forget that for men, even 11 stone is relatively heavy in runners terms
  • GlennGlenn ✭✭✭
    Editor, have a look at:
    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0636.htm
    You'll see that there is some serious science in this. Pirie of course was a nutter, but that doesn't mean that everything he wrote was wrong.

    Glenn
  • Joanne, If your podiatrist says you have a neutral gait I'd believe him/her and go back to the shop to complain about the duff advice. If they value your custom they will help you. The least they could do is give you a big discount off a new pair of neutral cushioned shoes.

    You don't say how heavy you are (rude question to ask a lady) and it is important.

    Don't despair about the inujries I'm sure you'll soon be on the run.
  • Glenn, I had a look and it's from a publication that offers advice to very serious and elite runners. I would suggest that much of this advice wouldn't be applicable to most of the people who look for advice on this site. From the profiles, most seem to be be relatively new, inexperienced runners who are not biomechanically efficient lightweight racing snakes.

    I think we need to keep it real. All of this serious scientific stuff is for top notch runners. I, for one am barely average.

    Pirie may have been a nutter but he was an elite athlete and was dispensing advice from that standpoint. Hardly applicable to heavyweight plodders.

    Wear lightweight shoes and you'll imediately run faster and start beating people in races you are normally way behind.

    If that cunning plan fails you could try training harder
  • I believe that there is a correct method of running and who ever you are you should observe certain rules which are not only highlighted in Pirie's book and pponline but many other places as well. All serious publications state you should either aim to land on the forefoot or at the very least the midfoot, but the foot should strike beneath the body and the body's natural shock absorbers should be allowed to work correctly. The main idea of having a very thin sole to the shoe is to ensure nerves within the foot translate the message of impact to the brain 'quickly' enough and excess cushioning doesn't interfere with this and also doesn’t ‘exaggerate’ pronation/supination. Running lightly is what you need to aim for and this is not related to your weight but your efficiency which in turn is governed by your body’s ability to carry this out i.e. do you have the strength where it needs it. The golden rule of steady progression within your limitations must be observed. Whether you are prepared to go as far as racing flats to achieve this is a personal thing, there is however a growing belief that the shoe manufacturers are unwilling to alter their stance after investing large amounts of money in promoting a product.

    With regard to Jo’s shoe problem she clearly needs to do something whether this is a combination of a change in shoe/ running style it is very difficult to gauge, are Brooks GTS a women specific shoe? You mention problems win the heel area and it is here that a women’s foot is usually much narrower than a mans, quite often it can be advisable to select makes that are designed specifically for women to ensure a good fit.
  • Joanne,

    Same weight as my missus who is also a neutral runner. She likes Adidas shoes but has also run in Asics Cumulus and Asics Nimbus. There are lots of good neutral cushioned shoes to choose from all of them should be OK. When you start running again make sure you build up really slowly
  • I think the problem with this long and tiresome debate is that some of the people who have most to say on the matter seem to be very inexperienced runners.

    I don't mean to sound like a clever dick but would you want an apprentice plumber witha year's experience to fit your central heating or would you go for a 20-year man?
  • Editor, you can always find an "expert" to back up just about any opinion. As Knocker says it is not just Pirie that makes these arguments and to pretend that it is - or to criticise the arguments by criticising their proponents is disingenuous.

    What I would ask is whether there is truth in the statement that most elite athletes are forefoot strikers? If so then why is this not appropriate for non-elite athletes?
  • What is undoubtedly true is that most elite athletes are biomechanically perfect and are made for the job in terms of low resting heart rate, big lung capacity etc. They are also very light.

    What is not appropriate for most of the people who have contributed to this debate is for them to attempt to run like an elite athlete and wear racing shoes for training (something that few if any elite athletes do).

    From the profiles I've read, most of the people on here are NOT
    1. Biomechanically perfect runners.
    2. Very light.
    3. Fast and efficient.

    Above all most are beginners who might be starting to train harder and push themselves in order to improve. If they do this and listen to some of the rubbish that has been spouted about training in flats they will get injured and disillusioned.

    How come nobody can get to grips with the points I'm making. I've known hundreds of runners and none of them would endorse regular training in racing shoes. What do they say about a million flies?

    And all this started when one lady runner asked a sensible question about what shoes to buy
  • Can I just preface this by saying I am not saying that Pirie is right - just that I am yet to see the arguments that convince me he is entirely wrong.

    I do appreciate your points Ed but I am not sure that you really answer the questions I asked - they were not meant to be rhetorical. You are making assertions but not really providing any reasons other than weight. OK I can see that a heavier runner may need more cushioning - but on the question of forefoot running I don't see that it follows that what is good for the elite is damaging for the crowd. I am not saying that you are wrong - just that I haven't seen the evidence that you are right.

    I think people like Pirie et al come along and make a strong argument for a certain way of running. There seems to be no real arguments made against that other than people stating "you'll get injured", or "listen to the experts". Well a lot of us have been injured running how the experts tell us - so naturally we are willing to give something else a try. I don't think anyone reads Pirie and commits themselves to running like that for ever. What they do is give it a try with an open mind.

    Again I really would appreciate someone who follows athletics closely to answer whether the elite run on their heels first or some other part of their foot - or are they all different. If they don't run on their heels then it does seem reasonable to ask for the reasons why that is not suitable for the rest of us. I think that you need to give people more credit for being able to make decisions based on the experience of long time runners (like yourself) and the science as it stands. If people make a choice to give this a try, get injured, and then give up running then they were never going to stick with it anyway.

    Finally I can see why you do not want to promote something you think is harmful - especially as there are a lot of people looking for advice on here. I just think that a better way to make your point would be to give the positives as to why we should run in the style and the gear you think are best - there is relatively little on how to run available to the average person and if Pirie et al are quacks then they filling a vacuum that maybe should be filled by some well informed articles on the technical aspects of how to run?
  • At my level – and dare I say it yours – there's no point in pondering the 'proper' way to run as we are never going to have a perfect style. So why not run for enjoyment and try to avoid being injured.

    If you are that bothered about how you run you probably shouldn't be doing it at all.

    Perhaps you people who are looking for a new way to run are actually trying to run faster. There's an easy way to do that – train harder. Try it you might enjoy it more than dispensing advice from a position of little knowledge and even less practical experience. Once you've been running a few years more you might be entitled to dish out these pearls of wisdom
  • Sorry, forgot to say that when you are training harder don't do it wearing racing shoes or you may get injured. Also don't run on the balls of your feet (if that isn't your natural style) or you may also do yourself a mischief.

    Running is great, as Mr Nike would say Just do it
  • Yes you've got me. No point in improvement if we can't reach perfection, can't argue with that one can we? ...roflmao.
  • I bow to your superior knowledge, staggering ability. I marvel at your perfect gait and envy your forefoot stike.

    Of course you are right and I apologise for suggesting otherwise. After all you've been running for more than a year and some weeks your run three times.

    I got it wrong. I am not worthy
  • ChaosChaos ✭✭✭
    Poor old Joanne - she didn't really need all this did she?!

    Ed - I apologise for my earlier "open-minded" comment. I think it's always right to introduce a strong note of caution where it comes to choice of shoes though I expect we will all continue to disagree on how strong that note should be.

    That said, I think there is significant scope for altering and improving technique which may or may not lead to a mid/forefoot strike for most of us. It's just a shame that your average running club coach really only focuses on how fast and how far we run, not on technique. This would never be the same for swimming for example.
  • Lets not stoop to personal insults. Can I suggest that we end this debate now with the following conclusions :-

    1. The majority runners (novice and experienced) run with a heelstrike and therefore require cushioned shoes. Plenty of these runners get injured but these injuries can, in the majority (?) of cases, be mitigated by changing their type of shoes or fitting orthotics.

    2. Fewer runners, but significantly very experienced elite runners, run with a forefoot strike and look for very lightweight shoes. We do not know how their injury rates compare with above group. One proponent of this group, Gordon Pirie, advocates changing ones style from heelstrike to forefoot strike in order to avoid injury and to run faster.

    I think the best we can advise is that there are two schools of thought, and an individual should choose which is best for them. Personally if I was in group 1 (as I was) and I was plagued with injuries (which I have been) then I would give 2 a try (which I am) until I get injured with that too (which I haven't yet...).
  • Less of the old please, Mark.

    I am still here!!!
  • ChaosChaos ✭✭✭
    Sorry! thought you might have started to ignore us ranters.
    Hope the PF's getting better.
  • Not really, but thanks for asking.
  • Tom I also agree we shouldn't stoop to personal insults but also don't think that this thread should necessarily be ended, the forums are here for discussions. As popsider has stated this area is very poorly discussed and something I find interesting, as I for one am interested in perfecting my running, as far as I'm capable, to enjoy it further. Plus I am a competitive person new to a running club and new to the type of commitment I am giving running and racing, at which I want to do well at. I have always run and have been fairly good at it, but since school only to compliment rugby which I have now retired from due to getting on a bit, so now running is my main thing.

    I agree with the editor that caution should be displayed as in the good old days I believe a rigorous process of selection could well have taken place to allow these great athletes to train and race in just very light weight shoes. The ones that couldn’t hack it would have fallen by the wayside. But that doesn’t mean shoe design can’t be better to facilitate forefoot striking and correct any biomechanical defects required. Does anybody wear orthotics with racing flats?
  • Editor,

    If you go back and read what I and others have said you will see that all we are doing is sharing ideas. The post you seem to take exception to what one in which I asked a couple of questions - not gave advice. You accuse me of dishing out pearls of wisdom but on no occasion have I ever recommended anyone run on their forefoot or in any other way. All I am doing is throwing ideas about, asking for the reasons why people do things the way they do.

    You also seem to think that as someone that has been running (or returned to running to be accurate) about a year ago I have no right to think about how I run. I find your attitude odd, I've done a lot of sport over the last 15 years - football, cycling, martial arts (wing chun - yip man and wsl lineage for those with an interest)and weight training and in all of those fields technique is considered important (you say I should train harder, I train in all sports 6 days a week so to do more running really would require me to drop something else). It is because I am relatively new to running that I am interested in technique - it is because I am still in the learning phase that I want to discuss these things. In general I tend to have an open mind - perhaps at times that leads me to try out things that in retrospect were foolish - but it is only by taking chances, by trying different things that you can really advance. If you are ever in the Derby area and fancy a run feel free to get in contact. Anyway I hope you feel it isn't worth arguing over.


  • Tom and Popsider I think that you have really hit the nail on the head with your cautious but open minded attitudes. Ed seems to be taking this as a personal attack and I do feel that you guys have been very restrained - well done.

    For myself, I have been running since 1989 and in that time have had numerous injuries, the worst of which is a recuring sciatica (sp??) problem which I believe is from the jarring of my 14.5 stone frame due to my heel strike. I have tried all sorts of shoes over the years but to no avail - as soon as I go up to half marathon, it recurs ( and I really suffered after marathons). The last time it happened was about 3 years ago, and I became so disalusioned that I stopped running altogether and started cycling - I also went back to squash, rugby, cricket and golf. Unfortunately going back to rugby after 7 years was ill advised, and after a few more injuries, gave that up again too.

    So after puting on too much weight, I decided to go back to running, and started by trying to find the right shoe. I found a link to Gordon Pirie's web site and downloaded the book, and felt that a lot of what he said does make sense. As a kid growing up in South Africa I used to run around bare foot all the time - I played rugby bare foot until the age of about 12! And you know what, casting my mind back, I used to be a forefoot striker - it is the natural way to run...it just seems to make sense.

    However (and this is for you Ed), I knew that with my lack of running fitness, being 16 stone (ie 1.5 stone overweight) and having to retrain my muscles to run properly I would have to be extremely careful.........so:
    1. I looked for a pair of shoes with reasonable forefoot cushioning that didn't have a heel that would trip me up if I tried to land on the forefoot. Could I find one - no!
    2. Second option was racing flats ('at his weight - no way', I hear Ed cry.....in fact he isn't crying, he's rolling about the floor laughing). But yes, I did it - I bought a pair of New Balance RC330's. I have had to take it very easy starting with 4 times a week just walk/running about 2 miles. I have been doing that for 2 weeks now and will continue to do so until I feel comfortable stepping it up a little. I have lost 1/2 a stone (mainly through a stricter diet it has to be said - cutting right back on the booze), but am determined not to get ahead of myself and to build up slowly.

    The point of all this is that I always enjoyed running and got very frustrated by my injuries. Here is a chance for me to try something new and see if it works and allows me to run injury free. If it does, I will be ecstatic, and my quality of life will really improve. If I end up injured again, I will have lost nothing, but at least I will have tried.

    Ed, I realise that your comments are out of a wish to prevent beginners getting injured, but they are not particularly constructively made, and your attitude seems very narrow minded. Please remember that you are not the only one with any sense and/or experience.
  • Thanks guys.

    I'm hoping we meet in a race somewhere. I'll admire your techniques and forefront strikes for the first mile and then you can all watch my backside disappear into the distance.

    Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can, run. Those who can't, wonder whether a different technique might help.
  • Ed,

    You've just proved my point. And if beating the hell out of a 14.5 stone 4hr marathoner gets you off, then more power to you.
  • Editor,

    I admire your persistance. I'll take up the challenge.

    Let us know what races you have coming up. If you'd rather meet on my turf, so to speak, I'm in the Leicester half and the North Midlands X country league. Just a bit of fun.

    Tom
  • Ed, I really cant understand the point you are trying to make. Are you telling us that just because someone is new to a sport they are not allowed an opinion, and 'old hands' know everything? Just because someone has been running for a long time does not neccesarily mean that they know whats best and for that matter,that they are a better runner. I have only been running for 4 years and already have achieved a sub 3hr marathon and a sub 35min 10K. This I think will be up with a large number of "seasoned' athletes. My tinking is that yes there are lots of new and inexperienced runners with things to say but so what and surely these are the runners who people like yourself should be encouraging to run correctly and efficiently from the start before years of 'bad' habits bed in. Ok its has become a bit of a war of racing flats v support shoes but the real issue most people are trying to raise is correct and economical running form. Unfortunately trying to run with forefoot strike is difficult with stability shoes and much easier with flats. I as I have already mentioned find it possible to run in 'performance' shoes. If I find a pair of shoes that allow me to run in the way I desire that are very stable and with lots of cushioning then I'll run in those.

    Ed you seem hell bent on preventing people running in what is widely known to be the correct way. I am begining to wonder what your motive is. Am I to take it from your TAG that you are the editor of a certain running magazine? This magazine been greatly funded by shoe manufacturers in the form of advertisements? I certainly would not expect you to agree with people who are suggesting that these manufacturers are ripping us off with technology we do not require.
    Just one final thought Ed if you are the editor of this magazine you should try getting your point across in a less aggressive and alienating way to your customers.
  • I think Ed is a troll. I presume you're all familiar with the concept of internet trolls that lurk on newsgroups and only post messages to cause arguments and generally try to antagonize and disillusion legitimate users.

    The reason I believe this was because at first he would legitimately argue his case but now he has just resorted to trading insults. I'm sure his choice of name 'the editor' is a delibrate effort to misrepresent the RW staff.
  • OK guys I give in. Coopsy's paranoia finally did it for me. No, I'm not the editor of any running magazine and from now on I'll keep my helpful advice for beginners to myself in case another group of bullies gang up on me in a futile attempt to prove their point
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