Sub 10:00...

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  • this is a great thread.  I've no idea why I'm here as Fegan's rules 1 and 8 rule me out but some great insights!

  • B_Kins - Although nowhere near that speed I will be aiming for similiar time spent running . I have a marathon in March but after that will only be running about 20mpw max... and probably only about 30-40 for mara training. I got a lot quicker (39 mins - 35 mins for 10km last year) on no more than about 15 mpw, but with a lot of short sharp cycle interval sessions

  • I think a lot of the long running sessions are covered by swim and cycle training anyway.. I don't think triathletes need to be doing the same mileage as pure runners to get decent results. Quality over quantity image

  • Completely agree. Let's see how this year pans out

     

    (I need to be doing ANY training before I can really give an opinion)

  • Just for comparison, before Tahoe I was running 7 out of a 19 hour training week, which included a 23 mile easy run, 21 x 800's, fartlek type run and 30 minutes off the bike.

  • Was your training based on a weekly cycle then?

  • Over how sessions was the 21 x800?

    Please tell me its not one session, but then maybe thats why I'm not in this league

     

  • I'm sure Fegan will confirm but... one session. You don't do them balls out - you pace them so they start relatively easy and become steadily more difficult until the last ones require you to really gut it out.

  • B_Kins wrote (see)

    ha! I don't know really. Very high vo2 max probably plays a part! That was measured at about 82 and i was told to forget about long endurance sessions and focus on hard intervals instead. 

    For an ironman?    OK you have world class vo2 especially untrained but no world class endurance athlete trains by forgetting about long sessions and concentrating on hard intervals.   

    Re. 21*800m - why?   If you are doing over 10 miles why not just warm up and run 10 miles.   

  • 1 session pace is around between 10k & 1/2 marathon pace, so for me around 3:00-3:05 per 800 with 200 jog recovery.

    My training plan is updated weekly although there's bigger plan but it is shaped to meet my current plans such as travel with work, family days etc.

  • popsider wrote (see)

     

    Re. 21*800m - why?   If you are doing over 10 miles why not just warm up and run 10 miles.   

    Because it works is the short answer. You could go and run a 65 min 10 miler but it would take longer to recover from and is harder to do - It's back to getting comfortable with uncomfortable - but really it just works. 

     


  • For an ironman?

    No this was training for sprints/standard distance. I know my training has to change considerably to build up to ironman. Though I am still aiming to keep improving over shorter distances as well.

    12k steady run followed by a 3.5k swim last night for the second Monday evening in a row. Looks like becoming a staple of the week.

  • 800m reps is certainly a very different workout to a 10 mile tempo run, although I would have thought that mile reps would be of greater benefit for IM.  Like you say though, the best sessions are the ones that work.

    Interesting you have quite a short recovery period - for me, I find a rep session more beneficial with longer recovery, I usually go 2 minutes between 800m sets.  But I guess if you're doing 21 of them that would add a lot of time to the whole session!

  • Still an endurance sport though BKins, though if you were very time limited maybe it makes sense, plus I suppose it depends on our sefinition of hard intervals - 1 minute or 20 minutes kind of thing.

    Fegan - I'm sure it does work to the extent you are running 10 miles probably around 10 mile pb pace with insignificant recoveries in between.    I'd knock it back to maybe 4 *1600 with longer recoveries or most people are going to end up wrecked.   

  • Yeah another point is I was racing in some form pretty much every second weekend all year which would have covered the longer endurance sessions. I'll be doing less races next year for sure. Our intervals are usually 3-5 minute repeats on the bike or 200-1600m runs. I'll need to start extending those a bit... anyone using rollers regularly?

  • Cheerful Dave wrote (see)

    800m reps is certainly a very different workout to a 10 mile tempo run, although I would have thought that mile reps would be of greater benefit for IM.  Like you say though, the best sessions are the ones that work.

    Interesting you have quite a short recovery period - for me, I find a rep session more beneficial with longer recovery, I usually go 2 minutes between 800m sets.  But I guess if you're doing 21 of them that would add a lot of time to the whole session!

    My 800s are typically of 400m RI which is 2-2.5min after a target rep of 2:57. 21 would probably kill me on a 200 recovery. I do find 800s hard work, much harder than 400s or 1000s. But as CD says, whatever works.

    Agreeing with Fegan I find the impact of a track session quite low in terms of rTSS (due to the warmup, cooldown and RIs) compared to another quality run of a similar duration or distance.

  • I'm assume the same approach is used for cycling reps as running. I've been doing

    Session 1 & 2 -10 min warm up then 3m to 1m recovery for 4 reps then 10 min cool down. 

    Session 3 - Hill work - 15 mile ride with 700m climb

  • I will repeat a comment I made on Facebook recently in relation to Rollers......

    "Don't get rollers, they're scarier that watching childbirth down at the business end......"

    This is based on a limited amount of use but I always struggled with balance and concentration, for hard interval sessions where concentration may wavier slightly I'd go for a turbo. My experience is that its easier to keep good form and still work hard.

  • I've started using them.. I've only done a few sets but they're not all that bad! I've started doing sets like 2 minutes on/off the aero bars. That was a bit dodge at first but gets easier. I'm thinking if i can build up to 30 minutes in the aero position that will be very beneficial. I do have a turbo as well but for now the rollers are favoured. I'm hoping i'll be more inclined to use them in the mornings before work.. never happens with the turbo.

  • What is the benefit of roller sessions apart from just being able to ride on rollers ?
  • Well some of the logistical advantages, they're quiet, light, no need to clamp your bike just hop on and go, they don't wear your tyre down the way a turbo does and i hate the idea of having a carbon frame bike clamped at the back. it must be doing some damage to the frame

    Apart from those its a good core workout and teaches you better balance and pedalling efficiency on the bike. If you don't pedal with a fairly consistent output the bike will jerk forward.. teaches you to ride in a very straight efficient line. I just find them more interesting as well.. 

    No great logic there but plenty of small reasons.

  • "i hate the idea of having a carbon frame bike clamped at the back. it must be doing some damage to the frame"

    but you don't clamp it by the frame - the clamping is on the metal QRs so there should be no effect on the frame.   but then that maybe my Elite turbo and yours is different.

    I've used my carbon frame on a turbo for a long time and there's no damage that I know of 

  • Well its stopping the bike swaying side to side as it naturally would.. something has to absorb that. Fair point though, I use mine on the turbo as well and haven't seen any problem.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    I's say that the type of running Fegan posted is where folks should aim if they want to go sub10, you are seeting yourself up for a tough run if you dont run much. Blagging 10ks and 1/2 maras off little running is a different game (I did it myself this weekend). You need a strong pair of legs to run well off the bike. My main race was only a 1/2 IM this summer and I did a few sessions of 8x1M and 16x0.5M (I only have 30sec jog rest though). You have to stop thinking of them like proper running 5x1M reps and slow them down and view them more as an exercise in going again, and again, and again. The mile reps come in somehwere between HMP and MP for me. I've done 10 before, the last few seem doubly as hard as the one before.  

  • B_Kins wrote (see)

    I've started using them.. I've only done a few sets but they're not all that bad! I've started doing sets like 2 minutes on/off the aero bars. That was a bit dodge at first but gets easier. I'm thinking if i can build up to 30 minutes in the aero position that will be very beneficial. I do have a turbo as well but for now the rollers are favoured. I'm hoping i'll be more inclined to use them in the mornings before work.. never happens with the turbo.

    Hardcore.

    Once the unpacking is sorted I might dust off the rollers in the garage.

  • 8 x 1km at avg 3:25 with about 1:00 rest between each night... not sure why i struggled but I did tonight! image

  • Golden Boots wrote (see)

    8 x 1km at avg 3:25 with about 1:00 rest between each night... not sure why i struggled but I did tonight! image

    Maybe due to not resting between reps? image

    How much fast paced training have you done this year?

  • oops image

    Not much that's true, only my second track session (first was last week) and then just some self interval sessions... but I ran a 17:40 5km 3 weeks ago so didnt expect to struggle 3:25 in reps last night.

    Running my first 10k race in 20 months at the weekend... that will be interesting

  • Impressive running. I would definitely expect to struggle with a set like that! Based on your 5k time I'd guess that was at least as hard a session as a 5k race? 1 minute rest doesn't give a lot of respite!

  • 10 x 600 on the track tonight at 3.35 pace with 200 at 4.30 pace recovery.. Great session. Planning a 3-4k swim tomorrow morning. If I can be arsed getting up.
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