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I agree BB - the SNP white paper does not add up. It leaves a whole load of us up here still asking questions and not really knowing what to do.
Pudge - not really, because the 'big' issues, like how much tax we pay, banking interest rates, etc, and all that military / trident stuff are still under Westminster control.
From what I can understand of it, what the SNP are proposing now is not actually independence, but 'having your cake and eating it'. Why they possibly think the Bank of England should let us keep sterling, and the EU and NATO should just let us stay in like nothing has changed, is beyond me.
Even with a yes vote there won't be independence for most of the geographical area of Scotland, instead of a remote centralised southern centric government in London they will have a remote central region centric government in Edinburgh.
I don't really care what they do, I just don't want the English tax payer to get shafted for it.
Utterly bizarre isn’t is, like you say Tigerspaw, it’s not independence! Surely after all the years of 'being ruled by England' you would have thought the SNP would be prepared and able to come up with something better, more believable (and independent).
I think the SNP have massively let down the nationalist movement, they’ve just no credibility after this. It’s clearly written to appeal to the idiotic and inept.
I wouldn’t like to see the UK split but if there is a yes vote there would be no way the remaining UK politicians could agree to what Salmond is claiming and keep their jobs. After a yes vote the remainder of the UK can only play hard ball.
At the end of the day it's no-ones business but the scot's personally I think they will be worse off for it but in part england, wales, ireland and scotland are so closing tired economically along side the rest of the EU that it's in a symbolic gesture and while it's going to muck up scottish tax's a bit won't effect much other than that. I think salmon has said a bit on it and not backed up why he thinks it's possible through? Some of the figures simply don't add up at the moment as far as I can see.
One thing very corious about through is if they get indipendance what's going to happen to all the dept the bank of scotland ran up, that we are all paying for at the moment? Plus have they throught about what will happen if that ever happens again? One of the main reason's why scotland became part of the uk was because they where almost bankrupt at the time and it got them out of a lot of trouble after colonay in whats now the USA went to pot.
Spent some of the best year's of my life in Yorkshire, come on up Cake and bring some ale with you.
Well this it, Cake. I'm not sure the finer details (or the financial implications of them) have been thought through. At some point someone will have to cost all this stuff out at which point Alex Salmond might be in for a nasty shock.
Lets keep it as is eh ?
In some way I can see Scottish Independence being like leaving home at 18 to go to University slightly wet behind the ears. You thought it was going to be a non stop party (it almost was) and that you were going to do things properly and show the rest how itr was done, but you soon realised you had to do the washing, cooking, shopping, pay the bills, do the cleaning, work hard etc and that the boring nights in watching telly were reality and that really, it wasn't that bad how it used to be.
I think Scotland, should they vote for independence might end up feeling the same way, but unlike Mum and Dad did, if they go, we should wash our hands of them. Salmond seems to have drawn up a wish list of how good it will be, you'll even be able to watch Strictly and East Enders and if you're not Scottish but living there, you can have Scottish nationality. What an incentive....
My other bug-bear with it all is they seem to think it will just all happen overnight.
It would have been a much more realistic and believable plan if their white paper had proposed some kind of phased gradual separation over a number of years, if they get the Yes. Its going to take years to sort some of this stuff out and get onto an even keel.
A general poll amongst my friends / work associates, and the 20 something's and younger were all saying yes give it a go, think of the future, and the cynical 40-60's are going no way, we will be taxed to the hilt.
There is a general voting lethargy where I live anyway, so it will be interesting to see what % actually turn out next year.
That would definitely be a bad thing Cougie. Perhaps they could do it with Irn Bru instead?
I can see white van runs down the M74 - meeting at Gretna to exchange the Tunnocks caramel wafers for Yorkshire beer.
What happens about Murray's Wimbledon title ?
Looking forward very much to the outcome of this although I'd be surprised if the nationalists get anything like a fraction of the votes.
Economically it doesn't add up so I hope that people don't vote on the basis of what is a load of unmeasurable 'whatifs'
Curiously if the rest of the UK were to vote on Scotland being independent, a straw poll around my office (darn sarf) would vote overwhelmingly to grant independence and let Scotland loose.
The 'no' vote must surely spell the end of the SNP.
You can have the teacakes, but get your mitts off the caramel wafers!
I could see the argument for dissolving the union 300 years ago, but I can't see the benefit today. I actually think that Scotland could make a go of it on its own - we may be a bit better off or a bit worse off, but it could work. What I ask myself is why? We're not "opressed" by the Union (despite what some activists might claim), we have devolved powers over things that are sensibly better for a "local" administration to take care of, and we retain an identity within the Union. It's not the USSR for heaven's sake.
It shouldn't come down to whether individually we'll be a couple of hundred quid a year better or worse off, or who pays for what, but that's the way it's being pitched by both sides (neither of which has put forward a compelling argument in my view).
What I would object to strongly would be the billions wasted in the divorce proceedings, the setting up of all the new systems, legal wrangling with the EU over membership/non-membership, changes to companies who have bases in both countries, additional duplication of administration etc etc etc. Are the relations between Scotland and the rest of the UK SO bad that taxpayers' money on both "sides" is wasted to bring about a change that is just not warranted?
So, even as a proud Scot, I won't be voting for independence.
And I'm not Scotch. I don't even drink the stuff.
The owner of Tunnocks - Boyd Tunnock - is against independence.
Talking to Scots the longer the debate goes on the more likely it is getting that the 'Yes for Independence' vote will win. I think this is because of the skills as an orator of Alex Salmond and a weak organisation and message for the 'No' vote.
It is easy to speak out for change when the status quo is bad for a lot of people but much harder to speak passionately about why things should stay the same.
A lot of people down south forget how far Scotland is from London where all the decisions (even after Scottish parliament most decisions) are made. Scotland is a beautiful country with lots of natural resources but the Conservatives are not loved in Scotland and perhaps politically it would be much simpelr to split the two countries up and have a labour/SNP governance in Scotland and Conservatives in England.
Where the discussion becomes very difficult to grasp either way is the financial side where people just keep trying to politically point score and it is very hard to work out exactly what the position actually is.
As a northerner I don't always feel part of the same country that I hear being talked about on the news, weather forecast etc and as someone has said above there would be plenty of appetite in some places to split from the south too.
For me I like it the way it is so hope the No vote can gain some momentum.
Anyone else watch Question Time last night? I thought it was interesting how the socialist panel members were all for independence primarily because they felt that who they were voting for wasn't getting elected 50% of the time. But it's the same for the English voters too! But lets see now, 10 years of Tony Blair (Scottish), then Gordon Brown (Scottish) and now David Cameron (of Scottish descent)! That'll be nearly 20 years of a Scot being PM by the next election. It appeared to me that their main gripe was that they weren't in full power of Scotland which is understandable but are they for independence because the SNP thinks that way they are likely to be in power for years to come and are just power hungry? When organisations or as in this case countries are split inevitably tasks are duplicated and costs go up. No matter how you split the national assets, they are what they are so money will have to be raised elsewhere which will be by taxation.
I just felt that no one on QT seemed to have a strong argument either way. I'd be worried if I were Scotch whether any of them are the right people to lead them into independence.
only thing to be worried about would be when someone might drink you.
Not if we're both still in the EU.
There was a significant drought in talent on QT last night. They really let the SNP off the hook.
The only good point that was raised was that people shouldnt be voting on the basis of party politics but on the fundamentals of whether it was a good thing for Scotland. Good doesnt necessarily have to be about more money / better prosperity by the way.
Personally speaking im not crazy about the EU and would be subjective about the risks of UK leaving if/when we get a vote on that.
I can totally understand the passion in the nationalist camp but they seem to be blinkered to the logical conclusions and complexities that independence would bring.
Last night someone made the point that they shouldnt get bogged down talking about currency, that housing & welfare were bigger considerations. I dont see how you can consider any policies if you dont know what currency youll be using, let alone external factors ourside your control if Scotland were to keep the Pound.
At least leaving the EU would be different for the UK as we dont have the currency issue.
I can't remember the last time I was at the doctor, so not a big thing. And, as I said, a couple of hundred quid either way isn't what it should be about.
I think you're spot on, BB - the Nationalist camp just want independence at all costs and are trying to justify it by "proving" that it will all be rosy. On the flipside, the Better Togetherers are all doom and gloom and are making out there would be no benefit at all. But that's politics for ya.
Indeed, they all have their own agendas to push.
What no one is talking about at the moment is what Cameron might have up his sleeve for Scotland if we vote No - apart from point scoring off the SNP along the lines of Ha ha I told you so - it is pretty obvious there is no love lost between Cameron and Salmond, so the Conservatives could use a No vote as a political victory to screw Scotland to the wall
.
Probably none of you down in England would have seen the STV debate the other night between Nicola Sturgeon and the Secretary of State for Scotland, where she basically tore shreds through him and left him a quivering (public)schoolboy wreck. She is a very convincing and strong candidate for leader of an Independent Scotland - but unfortunately she is not the one in charge at the moment!
I swither over the economic arguments though, and I'm still not fully convinced either way. It is very difficult to know the right thing to do without all the information and trying to cut through the political spin.
So would it be Stirling, Euros or a Scottish pound for an independent Scotland? Seems like a lose, lose ,lose scenario to me?
There's one thing for sure, a Yes vote will have far reaching consequences for the remainder of the UK, 25% of the Labour Party's key vote will dissapear with a Scottish exit from the House of Commons. Who knows how the consequences will play out, if the Conservatives have a clear majority it wouldnt be long before English nationalism rises further along the lines of UKIP (Not BNP), there could be a split in the Conservatives along the lines of the US tea party movement, furture battles fought out between the right of UK politics. Labour as a movement would be marginalised.
There is good reason that the rest of the UK should have had a vote, contrary to scare mongering I think polls show there is a lot more support in the UK for the union than in Scotland. But then I guess the Scottish nationalist bias will say thats due to English centric policy?
I wonder how far it could go? If Scotland has a majority vote to go independent ( Personally I think that it would be a bad idea, such a bad idea that I'd vote for it just so as I could laugh in a few years time....
) how long would it be before there was a similar vote in Northern Ireland? Or Wales? Or my house? How big or small do you need to be to decide you want independence? Country, region, county, town etc.....
The independent state of chimney