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Beyond #asics262: life after Target 26.2 for sub-3:30 runner Malcolm
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Small world DS2, I've messaged you to protect the innocent
.
(From 'ask the coaches' )
Hi Sam and Steve,
I read a lot about marathon pacing strategies. for example
1) run even splits from the off
2) first few KM a bit slow, hit your average pace after 14km and try to speed up for the last 10k
3) put time in the bank early on.
I guess I'm somewhere between 1 and 2 but I wouldn't mind getting your thoughts
DS2 - cheers. Calf isn't 100% proven to be gone but as long as there is no sign of it I'm happy
Freemers - wow, 3:12!
Given your revelation about liking round numbers, whatever time you do we now expect it to be bang on a minute. If you go over then you'll just have to jog on the spot in front of the finish line until the next minute comes round
Not So Great North Runner - many thanks indeed! I can't remember, are you doing a spring marathon?
Sean - it was boiling here too so I've had a taste of it. To be honest I'm not fretting about the weather. If it's hot, it's hot and at least it's conditions that I'm familiar with. I remember when I did Thanet in early September - it would have to go some to be hotter than that.
That all said I definitely want to know where it's heading so your local weather reports would definitely be most appreciated
Mr P - what time is the physio tomorrow? (it is tomorrow isn't it?)
Bonjour Malcs, je voulais juste dire tous le meilleur pour dimanche. Je suis persuadé que vous atteindre tous vos objectifs avec toute la préparation que vous mettez dedans Merci pour un forum merveilleux, il ha été passionnant
Yep 7:30 pm Malcs, the moment of truth!
Haha, loving the April fools joke...hope youve recovered from it Malcs?
good luck on sunday. Can't wait to hear how you get on.
Sean - lol, of course it does
Hans C - mdr
vous êtes trop gentil monsieur!
Mr P - indeed but hopefully good news. I will be nervously waiting to hear the result!
Sarah - just about Sarah, just about. To be honest I have a million and one other things to fret about so one more doesn't make much different
Many thanks!
Nayan
the time in bank theory might work for a few but all that happens with most people is you are tired earlier than you should be and make the last 10km unnecessarily hard.
I also think that it is very hard to run a much faster second half unless you run the first half very easily or are incredibly fit.
To me, the best strategy is to ease through the early stages as close as possible to goal pace but don't paniuc too much if you are behind schedule if it is crowded. Ideally if you are aiming for a sub 3:30, you reach halfway around 1:44. if you have run a half in the low 1:30s - certainly sub 1:37, then that shouldn't be too hard and taken too much out of you.
I now think it is best to make a decision around 15 miles. If you feel you are cruising and can go quicker, then you up the pace slightly - for a sub 3:30 runner, that would be no faster than 7:45s and ideally 7:50s. if you are not sure then try and stick to the current pace.
At 20 miles, reevaluate again. It might just be a case of trying to hold that sub-8 pace if you are near the limits, or ease back to sub 8s, if you feel much worse at 20 than you did at 15. Hopefully, you may feel, you can go very slightly faster but beware, it is no good running a great 20-23 and having an awful 23-26.2.
After the 20 miles warm up, effectively the 10k race begins and the better you feel at 20, the faster you will finish. It is great to get that point in control and it is psychologically lifting top feel good then and pick off lots of runners which you will do, including loads who passed you early on and who appeared to be going better than you did!
Control is essential in that first 20. Don't suddenly think you feel great and can suddenly change your race target as the adrenaline and the crowd support make you temporary feel like Superman. many feel great at 10km and are walking or stumbling at 40km.
Of course, Post 20 miles, a sub-8 will feel much, much harder than it did at 10 but if you reach 20 on course for say 3:28 and have trained properly and have got the pacing right and it's a good day for you, then you will break 3:30.
And there is more chance of you breaking 3:30 if you reach halfway in 1;44 than if you reach it tired in 1:39.
Have a great race.
Good controlled session yesterday Malcs.
DS2 my first marathon was October 1976 and I have done marathon every year since . I missed London in 1983 as had injury in March though but was fit by race day and did reasonable half-marathon the following week so could and should have done it. I thought I did one that spring too but can't see it on my records. Perhaps not as had my best track season that year though certainly did a few marathons later that year. I am missing some on my power of ten list - certainly did a marathon at Canvey Island in early 80s where they made us run an extra 800m lap around caravan site where finish was as the runners had all taken a short cut earlier! .
Haven't really contemplated missing London since but have had a new niggles but nothing like this year where I have done about a tenth of the training of any previous marathon and only one run of more than 10k since January.
I suspect I have a chance of starting it, despite the niggles and poor fitness, though if calf pulls at nine miles as it did Sunday - then little chance of finishing.
Getting treatment today - don't think will be able to run for a few days at least - possibly longer. Hopefully might at least be able to do a tiny bit at Paris but age eventually takes its toll.
Malcs - you might be interested in this world masters report which features details of Clare and Ros's wins on sunday http://www.athleticsweekly.com/featured/gb-athletes-shine-final-day-world-masters-championships-1905/
Great run through of pacing strategy Steve. Thanks very much.
Good luck this weekend Malcs (and everyone else) I've really enjoyed following your progress.
Steve - I have my fingers crossed you can make the start line and get through it. That is a remarkable record! The Canvey story made me laugh.
How accurate are the RW Pace calculators likely to be? I just put in my half time from the weekend of 1:33:58 and it estimates a full in 3:15:54. I'm sure I'm not in that shape!!
When I put Malcs half marathon time in which I think was 1:29:37 (sorry if that's wrong) then the calculator produces a marathon time of 3:06!!!
Steve - fantastic suff on the pacing. Made me quite nervous reading it (then again I'm on permanent adrenaline at the moment!
)
Thanks for the Masters link - that's brilliant, they all did so amazingly well! Nice pic of Clare in full flow.
Don't worry about running in Paris, if you have half a chance of making London get yourself sorted for that.
booktrunk - many thanks indeed! How are you getting on? Not long now until MK! Exciting stuff!
lou - cheers! I can't remember which marathon you're doing, are you London as well? How has the training been going?
DS2 - lol, 3:06
I say that's an overly optimistic calculator, DS2! There's one on Fetch that seems to be a lot better - it also differentiates between boys and girls, as boys tend to bang out very fast HMs that don't necessarily translate into very fast marathons. Girls generally have a better conversion. I think it predicted a 3:25 for me off a 1:34 HM and I ran 3:24:36 in the end.
Great idea for speedwork, BTW. I've never done 200s @ MP but I think I will try it. You still practice MP but it won't take too much out of you.
Of course Malcs is in a strong position with a sub 1:30 HM
Alors, on y va
Did you start carb loading yet Malcs? or are you going to give it a day or two yet?
Chick - yes, I get that about the gender difference. I think women are far better at converting half marathons to full.
I did my 400's this morning only at 10k pace and I still felt I got a lot out of it without over working. I think I will take forward a lot from the speedwork sessions that have been posted by malcs.
I will take a look at Fetch!
chickadeee - I think you're spot on there. Guys do tend to come up a bit short. We just don't have the stamina of you ladies
The 200's were good. The Garmin didn't have time to adjust between the recoveries and the reps so I found that forced me to guess the pace - quite good practice.
Nayan - lord no, I'd be a balloon by Sunday if I started now
I have a 2 day load starting on Friday. Unfortunately we're travelling for a large chunk of that but I am preparing well for that.
Have you started loading?
TODAY'S SESSION
Week15 - Wednesday
Easy Run
4M easy (approx 36 mins) with 4 marathon pace 100m strides
So, the penultimate training run. Well, it's not really training at this stage but it is the last but run on the schedule before we hit Paris.
Much like yesterday's run this went very smoothly. My foot was trying to trick me with a phantom pain but I wasn't falling for it. Sure enough it disappeared as soon as it came. I feel much more confident now on the taper madness side now. I'll get nervous for sure but I won't be fooled by fake pains or the odd sniff or cough.
I wasn't very structured with the strides, I just took off for a bit a few times. I struggled to keep the pace down overall though and ran a little quicker than planned averaging 8:40 pace. Not too bad though.
Overall I felt fine. I find it hard to judge with these runs because often I find it harder work just plodding than knocking out a fast session. I had no issues so that's about all I can say.
Run Summary: 4.3 miles in 37:10
That's a nice way of putting it. I would have said us girls simply lack in speed :-/
Nice run Malcs!
My race calculator (Mcmillan) gives you 3:08:36 based on your HM time- now that would be amazing!
Enjoy the next couiple of days...
I've just been on Fetch and got a similar result for me - just inside 3:16. I certainly don't have the confidence to go off at that pace. I am feeling like 3:25-6 may be possible but I don't want to get it all wrong by going too quickly early on.
I will look at MacMillan Clive. How is your foot now? Are you running regularly?
All of these calculators are suggesting around 3:15 for me. I find that ridiculous right now. At best I would say 3;25 may be possible.
Having read the conversion calculators I have looked at mine from a 1.35 HM and the all come up with different projections, anywhere between 3.19 to 3.30. Well they are the experts, they know best so bring it on
SupermanRuns - that's brilliant that they are all inside 3:30
Which one was the slowest - I need to look at that one!
Was less optimistic, but came up perfectly correct for my times from Hastings Half to Brighton Marathon year.
Can anyone remember which one it was?
Hello all,
Just in case i dont get a chance to pop back here before Sunday, Malcs i am wishing you the very best of luck (not that you will need it judging by your training!!) and have to say you've done a fantastic job on here keeping us all informed on whats happening!
Im very excited about London not far on the horizon, although im not sure my training has been adequate to get sub 3:30 im feeling fit & confident and just looking forward to my first London marathon
Had a bit of a nightmare on my last long run which dented my confidence a bit, but have managed to get a few good shorter sessions in since then which has helped.
Really enjoyed your talk though pacing options there Steve, that has been on my mind a lot the last few days!
And good luck to everyone else racing at the weekend!
chickadeee -
Clive - ha ha, we can all dream. Maybe one day who knows but right now there is no chance.
I've been chasing 3:30 for a long time, I'll be more than happy to achieve that, anything better is a bonus.
DS2 - trick one. You certainly looked comfortable at Spitfire doing 7:45 on a hilly course. You also have the experience of having run quicker before.
However, if I were in your shoes I'd go with Steve's plan of having a comfortable first half and then taking it from there.
SupermanRuns - no reason why you can't match those predictions
Sean - I'll ask Sarah
Feral Bob - great to hear from you!
Many thanks indeed! Well your endurance should be good after the ultra. Everyone is allowed a bad long run, it's in the rules! Just forget about it
I'm looking forward to the VLM run in next week too!
Oooooooooooooooooooooooooh I love all the excitement on here!
I'm really sorry I wont be there in person this year Malcs to shout at you, *cough* I mean encourage you! I have had a word with the sponsors though, and they've agreed to set up Skype points along the route, so you may well hear my lovely welsh tones! Just remember my new ultra mantra ' left foot right foot' (repeat for 3-72hrs)
My legs feel just fine today, thanks DS, I walked 4miles Monday eve, weight trained last night and I'm out running with my club tonight.
Good luck Angela for Manchester this weekend, and .... I've forgotten who else was on the list...sorry!
Nayan, Superman and HansC !!!!