My #asics262 journey to Paris: Sub-3 Roger

Also-ran

Hi Roger, I would keep a close eye on Bath and Reading. Bath has closed now for general entries, but 'best for age' closes towards the end of January.

It will be interesting to see the pre-race nutrition plan for Paris. I've tended to be quite aggressive with carb loading from about 3 days prior to a marathon, and then returned to normal intake the day before to avoid bloating. It seems to have worked in the past.  

ArrowsLou

Hi Roger, I would also get your entry in early for Watford if you haven't already, as it usually fills up around now. (Following your thread for OH who is aiming sub-3 in London). 

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the feedback, I have entered reading but yesterday got offered a best for age place in bath half, is one better than the other? I will get on Watford today thanks Arrowslou.



Ruth I'd be keen to here your thoughts on preface carbo loading.



Gareth, it is my pleasure, remember everyone is different, what works for one doesn't necessarily work for everyone, you must practice this before the big race.... I hope your training is going well.

knight rider

Hope you enjoyed your skiing. Any running today?

[Deleted User]

Thanks Knight rider, I got a great progression run in yesterday 8.00, 7.50, 7.30, 7.01, 6.40, 6.20 ish If I can remember correctly. today I did my wednesday session that I missed cos of travelling this was a gentle 8 miles at 7.30, I did 8.59miles and a little quicker, seems my altitude training has paid off felt pretty easy, got a spring in my stride.

I have gone with Watford and Reading half marathons as they are easier for me to get to and Steve says that watford will just be a hard training run and Reading is flat and fast. come on PB

CC2 - Speedy Goth

Well, Reading is flat and fast apart from the massive hill with the pub at the bottom offering pork scratchings to runners. 

Steve Marathon Coach

excellent training run yesterday Roger and good that you have got a boost from the holiday/altitude.

Reading isn't totally flat and don't recall a massive hill but a few drags certainly. I  think a fast time is likely though and a very competitive high quality  race - think about 180 runners inside 81:00 last year.

I've managed twice a day runs so far this year but some painfully slow runs.

welshgje

Steve MC: Have to chuckle at your 'painfully slow runs' which are probably at the top end of my pace

I have to admire 'twice a day' runs. I'm reading Mo Farah's book at the moment and he was on about running after breakfast, food, sleep then another afternoon run. Great if you are a pro and have the time.

knight rider

Good progressive run roger.

Reading looks like a good quality race Steve. Do you alter the pace on your double days?

RUTH MCKEAN

Thought I would give an overview of my thoughts towards nutritional factors which may affect performance during a marathon so you can see why carb loading is possibly helpful for some runners.

Marathon studies suggest that around 40% of runners hit the wall and those most likely to hit the wall include runners that don’t do the miles in training (running 20miles or less on training runs), lack of fuel (carbohydrates) & the expectation that you are going to hit the wall (most common at mile 21 or 33km). Taper will also likely play a part. This expectation  point is an interesting one because it is not uncommon to see endurance runners cross the finish line then collapse ... suggesting their mind can make them get to the finish line before it gives up. Therefore having a plan for your mind when the going gets tough is an aspect of marathon training not to be overlooked and Victor the Asics Pro Team Psychologist is the man for this! Having Steve and Sam coaching the runners will significantly reduce the risk of hitting the wall as they know what distances you need to cover to avoid not doing the miles part!

That leaves the fuelling issue which is commonly talked about in marathon running: that running low in carbohydrates will make you slow down as your legs feel like they have turned too led!  Unlike our large fat stores (the leanest of runners will have enough energy from fat to run back to back marathons) our carbohydrate stores are relatively very small. You often hear that if carbohydrate stores are fully stocked they will last for around  90mins however this is quite a simplistic view as each runner runs 26.2 miles at different speeds and if you run it faster you will use your carb stores up more quickly but as a guideline most people will use similar overall energy....running 26.2 miles faster requires more power but proportionally less time so if running it slower you still require the same energy overall but the slower runners may be able to use more fat and less carbs so the proportion/mixture of fat/carb use is different.  However, running at a constant speed or maintain constant effort (when hills come into a race) is probably the most efficient way (metabolically/fuel) to race so pacing strategy is also crucial.

When your muscles are working they use a mixture of fat & carbohydrate, you will never use 100% carbs or 100% fat (protein accounts also for a small amount) but carbohydrate account for a greater proportion as intensity/speed increases while fat accounts for a greater proportion at lower intensities. You  cannot release enough fat to use quickly enough at the higher intensities/speed during exercise, this why carbs become important for energy at higher pacing. Therefore the total carbohydrate use over the course of a marathon depends not only on the distance run but also the intensity it is run.

However the total amount of carbohydrates available to a runner will not only depend on how loaded they have manage to get their running muscles before a marathon (and this I will help with!) but also how big your liver is (physiology I can’t alter!) and also body mass/muscle mass (if you have a lot more weight to carry over the distance then your working muscle need to work harder to carry your body mass and hence use more energy). If very lean with large relative leg muscles this will cost less energy to transport, this is why most elite runners have good running economy & why body composition is important in endurance running.  Often I look to cut down on weight particularly in the runners wanting faster times/beat their PB... providing the fat is there is lose!

In summary: Runners with large aerobic capacity/VO2 max (large engine!) and large leg muscles (relative to their size and can store more

RUTH MCKEAN

In summary: Runners with large aerobic capacity/VO2 max (large engine!) and large leg muscles (relative to their size and can store more carbs in these than you or I) & can often store enough liver and muscle glycogen (carbohydrates) to run a marathon without hitting the wall and the need to take on little carbs during the race (some elites none) however this usually applies to those running sub 2.15. Runners with smaller VO2  max and smaller leg muscles relatively to size will run at a slower pace but will need to refuel (as don’t have big enough stores & running economy not as good ) and often  benefit from loading muscles in the days leading up to a race.

So the need to carb load is not universal as it depends on muscle mass, liver and muscle stores but for  those more normal people with a smaller horsepower engine then carb loading can help by allowing you to run at a given speed for longer and  why I suggest carb loading (usually only for 2 days for most but occasionally 3 for some and sometimes only 1 day!) and some mid-race fuelling.

 

The need to fuel mid race will  vary from person to person but there is a standard/safe fuelling method that I feel works for most people sub elite and  that is to start early with carbs (like roger does and then regular intakes).Elites that do fuel during a race will often do this much later into the race but again these athletes are physiologically different due to the years of training.

 I do suspect that Roger could load muscles better prior to race & then take less on during the marathon. Gels every 30-40 minutes rather than every 20minutes but if he has a strategy that works then often always best to stick with this when changing other things as I suspect taper and preparation is the reason to have caused problems post 20miles in his last marathon (as it is certainly not his carb intake during the race) but I would like to suggest an eating plan for the 24-30 hours before race morning rather than just starting this the night before? The half marathon in March would be a good time to try this out.  

I hope the above helps or makes for interesting reading at least.

RUTH MCKEAN

Just read the above back.. I have waffled a little (too much perhaps) but hope this makes sense. Please ask if not

Barry B

Ruth-  Very interesting read, are there any downsides of taking on too many carbs  during a marathon. ie if gels are only required every 30 - 40 mins but are taken every 20.

Steve Marathon Coach

will leave for Ruth to give the more scientific answer following her escellent earlier posts but personally taking on more gels more than every 30 mins would probably make me feel slightly sick - I often find as I get more tired/dehydrated the gels taste slightly different and the more I take the relative kick I get from them is reduced

seren nos

is Roger  on holiday again ?

Steve Marathon Coach

re my 2 runs a day - the extra runs have been very slow - often just to get to gym or shops and still trying to train normally on my other runs so the second runs are just additional mileage. Not sure if it will really make a huge difference other than add junk miles!

did very average county cross-country race yesterday - first kilometre in the 3:40s but then hit the mud and the cambers and the hills and barely seemed to be moving - and when was often sideways rather than forward - but did at least stay on my feet unlike many around me.

very slow 20 today on way back from helping at cycling event - sort of twice a day as did fast 2 mile to get train on way there.

[Deleted User]

Seems like you're ahead of where you were this time last year, Steve - would you agree?

10km race in Regent's Park for me today; 20th place and a time of 38:46. Over a minute down on my PB, but I'm pretty much where I expected to be at this early stage in training. I always find 10km races to be the hardest to judge right, and my age-gradings for that distance are usually lower than for both my 5km and HM races, strangely!

RUTH MCKEAN

I agree with Steve, taking on more than you need increases risk of stomach problems/ feeling sick and you really don't want your body having to digest more than it has to when trying to run  hard. I will be back on later in the week so have a good few days.

Barry B

Ruth/Steve - Thanks, I do struggle in the later stages of the race to take gels on, maybe the body's way of telling me I've had enough.  Going on from that how long does it take for the gel to get in to your system, so at what point is there no further gain to be had by taking a gel?

CC2 - Speedy Goth

No updates from Roger? 

County champs XC (muddy) and a long run for me this weekend. Still very unfit and slow but it will come.

Steve Marathon Coach

Hi cookbox - well done on your 10k - yes though my county xc was worse, seemingly a long way ahead of where I was last year and year before when I ran 2:59,  but many months ahead to avoid injuries or possibly get even fitter

see you were fifth CC2 but plenty of time ahead to get fitter.

Hopefully Roger hasn't gone on holiday again!

seren nos

the sub 3 thread is usually one of the most liveliest and knowledgeable to follow for all speeds as you get the discussions going on about all sessions and types...looks the unofficial one which has only been going a week is the one where the discussions will happen.....but unfortunately without Steves input 

I haven't seen one run of Rogers discussed in details about aim and pace and how it felt etc.how recovery was and was any other run affected.......and we have been going for weeks.....

infact this is more a thread about steve's running......

[Deleted User]

Yes my forum etiquette is somewhat lacking, apologies I am still learning. Life is very busy, Christmas is hectic for most of us, on top of that trying manage a busy Chiropractic Clinic, raise three young children, run 50 miles per week and look after my Mum who has very recently been diagnosed with leukaemia and is undergoing some fairly harsh chemo. Trying to visit her daily all while trying not to overburden my lovely wife who has to pick up the slack. Forgive me if I don't get the details of my runs down. I will try harder, my garmin connect account is public and can be joined by anyone. I am Happy to discuss my runs though.

[Deleted User]

Saturday I had a very muddy run in the woods, found a nice steep hill and did. 6 hill reps of about 30 seconds each. 5.5 miles overall. Little stiff setting out on. A 15 mile run Sunday, fine once I warmed up, till 11miles then started to feel a bit flat, 1gel got me home. I think I will start running the longer runs with a hydration pack. What are thoughts on gels/ fueling for the longer runs, I try not to fuel too much on my runs so as to teach the body to burn fat. I initially couldn't even do a short run without a isotonic drink. Now I manage up to about 80-90 minutes without anything longer runs my performance is compromised without hydrating and fueling. What are your thoughts Steve, Ruth?

[Deleted User]

Short 2 miles this morning with my Dog and 10 year old, will still do 5 mile 7.30 ish run at lunch

[Deleted User]

Looking forward to the 5m met league cross country on this Saturday, I am a bit nervous of the Sunday schedules run which is 8 miles at 8.00 then 8 miles at MP (6.45) that seems like a big step up and I would have done a XC rave the day before.

 

I will also post the next 4 weeks of the plan for those of you following it with me.

[Deleted User]

Training schedule weeks 5-8, enjoy

WEEK FIVE (approx 53-58M) Mon 5M easy (approx 8:00 miles in 40 mins) Tue 7M of 1M jog, then 15 x 400m at mile/5km speed (6 minute-miling - approx 90 secs), with 200m (or 1-in) jog recoveries, then 1M jog Wed 10M easy (approx 8:00 miles or 80 mins) Thu 7M of 1M jog, then 5M at half-marathon pace (6:30 miles), then 1M jog Fri Rest or 4M easy (approx 32 mins) Sat Parkrun or cross-country race or 45 mins fartlek (6M) Sun 18M easy (approx 8:00 miles in 2 hours 24 mins)   WEEK SIX (approx 42-46M) Mon 5M easy (approx 8:00 miles in 40 mins) Tue 8M of 1M jog, then 4 x 2000m at 10km pace (or 7 mins 30) fast with 400m mins (or 2-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog Wed 7M easy (approx 56 mins) Thu 6M with middle 4M at marathon pace (sub 7s – rest 8s) approx 44 mins Fri Rest or 4M easy (approx 32 mins) Sat 3M easy with some strides  (approx 24 mins) Sun Race or 13M at marathon pace or faster   WEEK SEVEN (approx 57-61M) Mon 5M easy (approx 8:00 miles in 40 mins) Tue 7M of 1M jog, then 20 x 200m at mile pace (approx 40-45 secs), with 200m (or 1-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog Wed 11M easy (approx 88 mins) Thu 1M jog, then 6M at half-marathon pace (approx 40 mins), then 1M jog Fri Rest or 4M easy (approx 32 mins) Sat Parkrun or cross-country race or hills or hilly circuit (6M) Sun 20M easy (approx 8:00 miles in 2 hours 40 mins)   WEEK EIGHT (approx 56-60M) Mon 5M easy (approx 8:00 miles in 40 mins) Tue 8M of 1M jog, 5 x 1M or 1600m at 10km pace (or 6 mins), with 400m (or 2-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog Wed 12M easy (approx 96 mins) Thu *8M progression run starting at 8s and getting faster with last few miles sub 7s in approx 60 mins Fri Rest or easy 4M (32 mins) Sat 5M easy (approx 40 mins) Sun 18M in approx 2 hrs 14 (first 9M easy in approx 8:00 miles in 72 mins, last 9M at marathon pace in 62 mins)  

[Deleted User]

Barry B wrote (see)

Ruth/Steve - Thanks, I do struggle in the later stages of the race to take gels on, maybe the body's way of telling me I've had enough.  Going on from that how long does it take for the gel to get in to your system, so at what point is there no further gain to be had by taking a gel?

I too have experience this, what are your thoughts Ruth on acid/alkaline balance? I feel if I am alkaline going in, as in clean living alkaline diet, avoiding acidic things like coffee, booze (obviously) and well hydrated and get the right balance of gels and hydration during then I am fine with taking quite a lot of gels compared to most, also I have the isogels which are bigger with more water so not so sickly sweet and acidic. But I also sometimes feel like I just can't stomach another. I think it is good to listen to your body but also to get the gel in before the blood sugar levels drop too much.

[Deleted User]

WEEK FIVE (approx 53-58M)

Mon 5M easy (approx 8:00 miles in 40 mins)

Tue 7M of 1M jog, then 15 x 400m at mile/5km speed (6 minute-miling - approx 90 secs), with 200m (or 1-in) jog recoveries, then 1M jog

Wed 10M easy (approx 8:00 miles or 80 mins)

Thu 7M of 1M jog, then 5M at half-marathon pace (6:30 miles), then 1M jog

Fri Rest or 4M easy (approx 32 mins)

Sat Parkrun or cross-country race or 45 mins fartlek (6M)

Sun 18M easy (approx 8:00 miles in 2 hours 24 mins)  

 

[Deleted User]

WEEK SIX (approx 42-46M)

Mon 5M easy (approx 8:00 miles in 40 mins)

Tue 8M of 1M jog, then 4 x 2000m at 10km pace (or 7 mins 30) fast with 400m mins (or 2-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog

Wed 7M easy (approx 56 mins)

Thu 6M with middle 4M at marathon pace (sub 7s – rest 8s) approx 44 mins

Fri Rest or 4M easy (approx 32 mins)

Sat 3M easy with some strides  (approx 24 mins)

Sun Race or 13M at marathon pace or faster