Simon Coaching - velloo

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  • DT cheers, I'm not so annoyed about it now - it supposed to be fun after all image

    Nice easy 10 miles this morning, ran by a burn, the seafront and around Holyrood park reminding myself that I'm lucky to be able to do this and in such nice surroundings. 

  • velloo, from everything above it just sounds like tiredness. Probably a combination of harder training lately and being under the weather.

    Anyway, I've been looking at your training as a whole and have a couple of suggestions:

    1) It seems that your sessions seem to go better when you've had a longer warm up. What sort of warm up are you doing on race day at the moment? I think we should experiment a bit during some sessions and try and find out what works best. A longer warm up that I've found can work well:

    2 miles progressive. Start at jog pace and progress to Sub-LT
    1 minute @ about 10k pace
    10 minutes dynamic stretching and drills
    1 minute @ about 5k pace (aim to complete this about 15 minutes before race/session starts)
    4-5 strides and a bit more jogging until the race/session starts

    Obviously, the key is to find a balance between being well warmed up and getting too fatigued to race at your best. Definitely not one to try first time on race day.

    And then note which rep you find easiest during your session. If it's the first, then great job, if it's the second, then perhaps a little more is needed. Or perhaps you're tired on the first rep and you need less.

    2) Because you've identified downhill running as a weakness in the past, and because of your comments about getting the legs working above, I've been thinking about including a bit of hill training in the schedule - both up and down.

    The downhill running will help with turnover and the uphill sections will help running strength in general. Put altogether you might start getting out of breath in races.

    One other thing - and it's related to warming up, do you have mile/km splits for races where you've done really well? It might be worth having a little analysis and trying to work out the best strategy. I'm personally a fan of starting a little slower than necessary because a) it makes one much less likely to blow up b) the psychological aspect of overtaking people can be really encouraging.

  • Thanks Simon - before a race I try to run at least two miles and do strides. On Saturday I couldn't manage the strides because my feet were so unresponsive, but did run for two miles plus a seven mile cycle. I'll try your more comprehensive warm up and see how I get on. I did no parkruns last year, and just a couple the year before so it's not a distance I'm practised at. 

    During a lot of the longer runs my pace picks up towards the end because I do an out and back route and tend to run into the wind for the first half. All the circular routes involve hills so I do my easy runs on them. I'd definitely like to do some hill sessions, uphill sprints especially. I live right next to a big hill so can easily access road and off road steep uphills. It's off road downhill running that I'm really bad at, especially if rocks are involved. 

    As for past races I'm never pleased with my times! I've got very few records but generally I try to start slow after messing up a 10k by going out too fast and stopping to retch mid-way through. I didn't go out slow on Saturday because of the wind direction, I knew it would really slow me down on the return leg. 

  • Velloo - as DT said loads of valid reasons why the parkrun didn’t work out as you'd hoped. The fact you couldn’t even manage strides was enough of a sign for a start.
    You may be different from me in this respect, but I hate running after I have been on a bike, obviously something you can practice as Triathletes will testify. But I am sure a 7 mile bike ride before a race is less than optimal.

    Complex warming up Simon. My usual routine is  generally at least two miles easy/steady (ideally 2.5m - 3m) then strides, then slow trotting as close to the staert as possible to keep blood flowing. I would no doubt do more if I were a middle distance runner but I find that lot plenty for 5k and up.

  • Velloo you mentioned that you were told that the easy runs were run too easy.    I think this is the case for me at the moment.    I have done 19:45  for 5k recently.   According to mcmillian this equates to 6:20 for mile reps and 6:30 for a tempo run.    I run these probably a few seconds quicker.    Easy runs are meant to be at 8:30 but I tend to do these at about 9:00.   Mainly because my legs are trashed after running 50 miles over the weekend in the hills.

     

    So does running the easy runs too easy make a difference? 

  • velloo, I think for distances from 1500 up to half marathon even or slightly negative splits are best, and based on feedback from your sessions and races so far (and what you've said above and in the past) I think in your case negative splitting is the better option. If a strong finish is a strength then stick with it.

    TR, it's generally true that the shorter the distance, the longer the warm up. I do think it's worth doing something at race pace before a race though. I don't necessarily think velloo hasn't been warming up well enough, but I think it's worth a bit of experimentation.

    spen, not sure what tempo means in this instance (so many definitions), but 6:30/mile sounds a bit fast.

    Your easy run pace sounds fine, but do you do any longer slightly faster runs? Say about 7:30-8:30 pace? There's a lot of aerobic development to be had at those intensities.

     

  • Yes I will do ten miles at 7 30 pace every couple of weeks. 

  • Hello, been away for a few days and was hoping to get some quality training done in a flat, windless, warm Amsterdam but instead I've been floored by a cold. I would say the rest has probably done me some good but as I've had raging insomnia I feel and look like a zombie. Anyway it's nothing serious. 

    Spen71 did you see the article about Geoffrey Mutai's training? He does plenty of easy running 8min mile pace coupled with really hard, hard sessions. Not that I'm comparing myself to him, but the principle is the same of keeping your legs fresh enough to hit faster training paces. I'm always worried about injury too, so I don't think my body could cope with stepping up the pace of the easy sessions, it's amazing how hard 9m pace can feel sometimes.

    TR the bike issue did occur to me, once I stepped off it with jelly legs! I don't cycle much so hadn't really thought about the consequences…lesson learned.

  • Thirsk Runner wrote (see)

    You may be different from me in this respect, but I hate running after I have been on a bike, obviously something you can practice as Triathletes will testify. But I am sure a 7 mile bike ride before a race is less than optimal.

    Horses for courses. I've ridden similar distances for 10km races and used it as a WU. A couple of pickups on arrival and I'm all set. 7mi on a bike isn't that far; it's how you ride it.

  • Fair enough Iron, I am sure with practice it would be fine and no doubt very good training for Triathletes but for a runner who occasionally cycles (me and maybe Velloo from what she has said) I stand by my point that it is a less than optimal way to prepare for a race.

  • Bad luck with being sick, velloo, but as you mention a rest can sometimes do good.

    This week's main run was going to be a tough interval session, but given the recent ilness I've swapped it for:

    2m warm up; 3 x 1 mile @ LT with 1' recovery; 1m easy

    That should be enough to wake up the legs up after a bit of a rest, but not too taxing.

    8 min/mile seems very very slow for an elite runner. Agree that easy running should just be easy though. It's important to distinguish between aerobic running and easy running and think about attributes other than pace. E.g. a short run with strides with averaged 7min/mile could be much easier than a long run at 8min/mile.

    Cycling always leaves me with jelly legs, but then I hardly ever do it. I feel pretty good after a swim though.

  • I always feel really hungry after a swim.

    That must be my quota of colds done for the year now, it's my OH's fault. He was working with a load of infectious children. 

    Those 8min miles are done on hills though and just buffer some brutal sessions like that 25mile progressive run image

  • 10k race today, wasn't holding out any great hopes for it due to getting over a cold. It's was a flat, ugly course, which suits me as I really need to concentrate to stop my pace slipping. The start was quite crowded but as it was chipped I didn't push my way to the front, it usually attracts a quality field so lining up against 30min guys wasn't an option! First mile felt ok tried to keep the pace down but then I saw the woman who beat me at the 5m race and decided to over-take her, so the first mile was 6.12 a bit too fast. Next mile still feeling ok but midway through we turned into the wind for the next 3 miles, it was a brutal, energy sapping slog, it also rained, and was surprisingly warm. I was monitoring my pace a lot and couldn't stop it slipping 6.22, 6.27,6.31, then we turned and bang! 6.02 wind at my back, oh no we turned again and back into the wind 6.21, turned onto the track for the last little sprint and a new PB. 39.15 on the chip, and 39.23 on the gun. The woman 1 second ahead of me won the vet prize but my chip time was 4 secs faster so maybe I should move up the field at the start. 2nd Vet and masters team prize. Very pleased with that.

  • An excellent result, velloo. Sounds like really tough conditions, so to get a PB is really good going.

    Shame about the gun/chip thing. Were you actually racing this woman in the home straight or did you realise afterwards?

    I've been putting the finishing touches to your schedule leading up to the next big 10k on the 10th May. I'll post the main sessions on here tomorrow (the thread may be more interesting for others to follow if it's clear what you're up to), but for now the main changes are:

    * fewer interval sessions. There'll be a couple of top-up sessions in there, but most of that work is done now

    * continue to build on the longish steady/Sub-LT runs

    * slightly higher mileage

    * some short hill sessions (up and downhill)

    * and most importantly, more stuff at threshold pace and 10k pace

    It'll be a tough 4-5 weeks. I think this phase will make the biggest difference in your 10k fitness. The work up until now has been more preparatory, so even more pleased that you're PB-ing. Well done again.

  • Excellent work at the 10k velloo, a PB at this stage is excellent going! Looking forward to seeing how the schedule pans out with 10k specific work coming up.

  • Thanks TR, it went much better than I expected.

    Simon I was racing her once I hit the track, another 100m, a strong gust of wind to my back and I might've caught her! But I didn't realise our ages/times until after the race, she wasn't someone I recognised.

  • So, with a 10 mile race coming up this Sunday, there's nothing too demanding this week. Just some easy miling with one LT session:

    3m progressive WU; 2m @ LT; 1 minute recovery; 1m @ LT; 1m easy

    After Sunday's race, early next week will be easy running to recover, with a tougher run at higher aerobic pace on Thursday:

    2 easy; 1 steady; 7 @ Sub-LT; 1 easy

    The idea of these sessions is to push the aerobic engine in a way I feel that slower easy-paced runs don't.

    Then at the weekend we have our first hill session. This will 3-4 reps of:

    15" up steep hill @ 90-95% effort. Triple extension of ankle, knee and hip when pushing off and driving forwards. Use arms for extra power. 2' walk recovery between reps

    10" fast downhill striding on gradual decline. The key is to stay relaxed and really get the legs turning over. Take 30 or so metres to build up speed before the main effort and give yourself room to slow down. Should be done @ 95-100% effort

    The main goal of these sessions is to improve top-end speed. The uphill runs develop power and the downhill running improves turnover.

    Once a few of these are in the bag, some longer hill sessions will probably be beneficial

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Well done on the pb Velloo. Hopefully you'll tell me some off that has to be attributed the the p and d base from last Autumn?!!

  • Thanks Simon, by triple extension is that locking out my back leg and powering through it? 

    DT19 P&D certainly laid down an excellent base from which to work on, you'll be flying image. Actually I'm still very uncertain about the effects of marathon training on other distances and post-mara training. I sort of want to run London next year but not at the expense of the rest of that summer's road season. 

  • DT, the guy I was coaching for the Brighton marathon found that he actually slowed over 5k during training and was quite concerned.
    However, he did start to pick up a bit during taper and then got a 14 minute PB in the marathon. So I think it's worth remembering what you're training for.
        
    Were it not for velloo's marathon base I would probably be prescribing slightly higher mileage now.

    One thing that we've been able to get away with neglecting a little up to now is the longer easy runs, but there are a couple of top-up longish runs over the next few weeks including 13 miles this weekend.
        
    velloo, yep triple refers to ensuring that the hips, knees and ankles are all extended fully as you push off. This diagram http://hitsystem.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2nobbybound.jpg is a good illustration (although this is explaining hill bounding I think so ignore the arms and green arrows). It really helps if you do it on a steeper hill.
       

  • Sunday was a lovely day, light breeze, sunny, almost warm but that was London and I was racing in the arse end of S Lanarkshire where it was cold, wet and bloody windy. This 10 mile race always attracts a fast field as it's a championship race for various organisations and is usually on a flat course but this year the route was changed to a horrible hilly route. The race started off on the track then climbed for two miles so I kept my pace easy, miles 3 to 4 were lumpy but I felt my pace was ok, then we turned round. I was smacked in the face by hard cold rain and a brutal headwind I really wanted to quit but I was in the middle of no-where and walking would've been just as bad but taken longer. I tried to find a big person to run behind but had to settle for running alongside a skinny guy and we pulled each other along. Not a PB but one of the most unpleasant races I've done recently. To make things worse I felt so unwell afterwards that I couldn't eat, and my stomach is still in turmoil today. My FB pace is full of smiling club mates sunning themselves after the VLM, I feel like the dour faced grump of running! 

     

  • Well, it sounds like you did pretty well. It also sounds more like a cross country race. During your next 10k (which will be flat, fast and ideal weather conditions, of course..) you can think back to that.

  • This is Scotland - the weather is always a challenge! Anyway it's sunny now, only 9 degrees but I've caught the sun and my OH has burnt his neck!

    First hill session today and a fabulous day for it, clear views across the city. Chose quite a gentle downhill as when I tried the steeper ones I held back too much. Nice to be off the roads for a bit, finally used the Salomons I bought for all the imaginary hill racing I do.

  • Sunburn in 9 degree heat? I thought I was bad image

    I should have emphasised before, but the gentle downhills are essential. You're basically forcing yourself to run a bit faster - or at least to have the legs turning over faster - than you could on the flat.

    Any stiffness after that session? You should be recruiting different muscle groups so I wouldn't be surprised.

  • Luckily it wasn't his face that caught the sun, a big red coupon is never a good look! No stiffness in the legs but then I do live in a top floor flat, also I don't think I went fast enough...

  • Well last week was a right-off. Me and the OH had time off work so headed off into the countryside for some running and relaxing. I spent most of the week exhausted and vomiting, and he was bed-bound with a fever. I don't think either of us had as much as a cold last year but this year we're a couple of invalids.

  • Ugh. Such bad luck. I reckon it's worth easing back into things and pushing target race period back a bit. No point overdoing things or chasing PBs when run down. By all means race if it takes your fancy but I wouldn't get overly concerned with performance right now.

  • It's really annoying - I got the blood test results back and they showed my body is reacting to something or other, probably an infection, I had the test done before last week's sickness. Being off my food for a week has resulted in being down to 'hurdler' weight on the stillman calculator, not much use if I don't have the energy to run!

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    Hi velloo! It looks like I will be moving to the Frozen North (aka Fife) this summer. Are there any flat, fast 10ks or HMs you would particularly recommend in the area?

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Duck on middle ground runs for Fife. He might be able to help also.



    New job?
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