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Jeff Galloway approach to R/W/R London Marathon 2014 -Help!
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A 5 in hours column will be brill Chris. I'd be happy with that too. Funny how the mind works, yesterday I was thinking shall I just forget all this run / walk and just go for it!! I know it would ruin any chance I have of finishing in a respectable time so back to the original plan.
Keep following your plan and rest up.
LMA - the way the physio used the tape in me was to slightly adjust the position of the kneecap and reduce pressure on the joint, so it's a purely mechanical thing and not the thing about increasing bloodflow (which is controversial, to say the least). All I know is, I feel a clear difference with it on or not - with it on, my knee feels fine and I can run (albeit not fast). Without it, I get frequent sensations of "not OK" from my knee. So, I'm wearing it, end of.
Re the tempation to run continously, I think it's quite understandable. For me, the injuries are forcing me to RWR, so I am quite content with it. I know it is the only thing that will get me to the end. I suspect if I tried to run continuously, I would have knee/calf issues way before 26 miles.... plus, because of the mileage I have lost through injury, I am probably not aerobicallyfit enough to run it all now anyway.
But I don't care, cos I still think it's an achievement to RWR 26.2 miles, even with a 6 in the hours column, which I will probably have. Heck, even a 7...
Hi all
Jeff has got back to me with suggestions as to how to run the marathon next week.
He says I haven't to concentrate on time, just on the R/W/R ratios. I quietly screamed and wanted to rebel at what he put.
10/30 for about the first 10 miles; then 15/30 up to 20 miles; and finally 15/15 or whatever I want for the last 6 miles.
I'd visions of this getting me home in an incredibly slow time when I looked at what he had put. However, on reflection and looking at what pace I had done my negative ratios on my long runs, I reckon this will bring me in at just under 6hrs
I did my 26 mile run in 6:06 with 6 to 8 miles of just walking and the rest in a negative ratio (20/30 and 20/40). This gave an average pace of 14:12. I reckon if I do as Jeff suggests I will hit a pace somewhere in the range of 13:30-13:50 or slightly faster, which gives me a good chance of dipping below 6hrs. So I need to just get a grip and do as I'm told!
To do the marathon in dead on 6hrs you need to use an average pace of 13:44.
To do a marathon in 5hrs 55mins you need to use an average pace of 13:32.
To do a marathon in 5hrs 45mins you need to use an average pace of 13:10.
10/30 might be a weird ratio
I think I am going to try 20/40, or maybe I should try 15/30 for the first 20 miles then see what happens
my 20 mile run took 5 hours, so average pace of 15 min miles, but I did walk a lot and I was pretty fatigued...
I am hoping I can get 6 hours or under as the cut off is 6 hours, but I really don't know...
I have just been looking at my training run data and considering race day in the light of it.
My 20 miles run in early Feb took me 4:22:44, however, the elapsed time was 4:29:21 because of a toilet stop. (Pace 13:13)
My 16 miler in early March, 5 days after Blackpool half took me 3:37:19, but I walked all the last mile. (Pace 13:34)
My 24 mile run took me 5:42:50, however the elapsed time was 5:50:13 because of a toilet stop (Pace 14:20)
My 26 (actual distance 25.82) mile run took me 6:06:36 with no extra elapsed time (Pace 14:12)
There was a marked drop in pace in the two runs that were more than 20 miles in length and certainly after the 26 mile one I had pretty much nothing left in the tank.
I would say that anyone who hasn't done more than 20 miles in training needs to take account of the possibility that this will happen to them too, and pace themselves accordingly. I am hoping my 2 over 20 mile runs will help me chip off 5 or 10 minutes on the day and get me under 6 miles, but we'll see.
Chris- 90% of runners slow considerably in the marathon- you should definitely expect to slow after about 20 miles. Well done for the very long traing runs- I did a double marathon yesterday with my longest traing run being 20 miles!!!
I did RWR for a double marathon yesterday- 4run/1 walk for the first 30miles, dropping to 3/1, then 2:30/1, and finally to 1/1. It worked! I beat my time of last year by about 15 minutes- last yar's strategy was to run the first 22 miles then introduce walking when necessary- I was in much better condition at the end this time, and passed 4 other runners in the last mile.
The time for the first marathon part was 5 hours dead, more like 6:40 for the second marathon (although actually it was a bit overdistance, so a little less than that!)
Tricialitt - Wow!!! really impressive and a good advert for R/W/R. Did you work with Jeff himself to plan this or are you a teach yourself. It would be good to know the story of how you ended up using R/W so strategically.
C
I've been looking at my times too Chris! Must be nerves kicking in. I'm averaging about 11.40 with run / walk. I've not done more than 17 miles though. I'm going with 4/1 for London but ready to keep reviewing at anytime I start to tire drastically. I've been tracking runners today at Manchester and Paris and as you say for some those last 6 miles become very slow.
Tricialitt - that's amazing!! a double marathon! wow! How are you feeling today?
Chris/ LMA- thanks. Not feeling any worse than after a standard marathon- one bad toenail, bit of DOMS, but able to go up and down stairs independantly!
I have used R/W/R before- my first marathon- it waas the only way I could run after trouble with ITBS- did 9/1 for that ,but subsaeuently treid to run more continuously in an attempt to get my time down from 4:20- on that attenpt, to 3:59xx- which I have managed, but I think that actually, now that I'm going longer, R/W/R is definitelly the way to go...............only big disadvantage- when you change the rations on the Garmin, your run ends up as mulitple separate workouts, rather thatn 1 long continuous run!
tricialitt - wow, well done yesterday!
@ trialitt: which garmin do you use? I just set the alert of the run/walk on different ratio's and have no trouble with workouts or what so ever.
Hi guys - so I did the Paris with run/walk and found it extremely tough to get it together. I did 8/2 and although it may have worked up to 20 miles the pain in the legs for the final 10k was so bad that I came to the conclusion that stopping an starting was not a good idea.
It had worked on my 16 mile training runs - this was the most I had done due to injury.
Will I try it again? Maybe - but I think I need more research and development.
Hi Gareth
I am just glad you survived the race after all your injury issues. Thanks for letting us know how you found it. Did you R/W from the first mile?
I think you probably needed shorter segments from the start to get through because of your low mileage ie 4/1, 2/30, or even a different ratio altogether so that your legs got a more frequent rest, say 30/30 or even a negative ratio to protect your legs eg 20/30. The 8 running minutes probably wiped your legs out completely before you got 20 miles. Just think what you would have been like running continuously though. I think you did really well considering the shortness of your longest run, and showed amazing grit and determination.
C
Gareth - I should probably have waited till after next 's London marathon before I commented. LOL. Although I have done a very slow 26 in training using R/W and lived to tell the tale. (40 mins slower than you in Paris though - but I am an oldie)
Hi Guys
Did Manchester in 5hrs 21 and a bit - my only word of caution is be very very careful you don't do the run segments too fast. i was doing 5/1 which had worked in training (averaging 12mm) but in the race i did the first probably 6-7 miles at 11mm and then started to pay for it. Because my garmin was set on intervals i didn't realise my mile pace was way out (lots of adding up once my stats had uploaded after made me realise what had gone wrong). My right leg started to seize up and while i was still managing the runs it was uncomfortable making it not such a good experience. Ended up with a hideous stitch in the last 3-4 miles making it almost impossible to run but i did manage a stagger over the line.
R/W does work (i think Trici proves that) but i need to learn how to judge my pace better with it. But on the upside though i'm still very tierd i'm not aching as much as i'd of expected and no problems with stairs at all.
So onwards and upwards to the next challenge
Oh the other thing if you have vibrate alert use it i found it hard to hear the beeps with the noise quite a few times and missed the first walk segment completely then started a few run segments late or early becuase of not hearing it
Chriss and welshgje - well done!
Chrissi - can you set your garmin using the run/walk alerts instead of intervals? Then you get the mile splits on autolap too and can keep a tab on pace during the race. It took me a while to figure out how to do that (well, to realise that I could do it then it only actually took a minute to check in the manual how to do it!!)
I am getting a bit nervous about Sunday....
MC - my garmin is older and doesn't have the walk/run alerts i have to set up an interval workout. Can't justify a new one just on that yet
Just found out the 5 hour pacer i was attempting to stay in sight of was running a 4.42 pace for the first 8 miles. I always thought they ran even splits. Oh well you live and learn 1) don't follow a pacer 2) make sure you understand exactly what your watch is telling you
Next marathon is a trail one so need a run/walk/walk the ups and techy bits and run slowly the flats and downs approach more than a set R/W one 10 weeks to practice
Hi Chrissi thanks so much for the update on your Manchester marathon. Very well done on your time. My Garmin is older and I set it up for intervals and I must admit I do miss the min per mile pace beeping And I certainly want to be able to download mile stats from London.I've seen my sons new Garmin has walk / run, I'm hoping he will let me use it on Sunday. It's also more difficult to work out pacing when you throw in the walk segment.
I will bear in mind not to dash off too quickly. Hopefully the number of runners will help with this.
My son said one of the pacers at Birmingham half went off far too quickly! You would have thought even pacing was the key.
Getting very nervous and excited now.
Well done Chrissi. You did brilliantly.
It's great that we are getting as it helps us all understand the issues and advantages and adjust accordingly. Excited and scared about Sunday in equal parts....well more scared, actually.
C
Just popping on here from your other thread!
I just wanted to give you some encouragement, there is not a 1200 climb in VLM! A climb like that would have contributed towards muscle tiredness and hence cramp. Also I presume that there would have been some down hill to match the climb. As runners we tend to think of the down section as being easy but in fact running down hill can put a lot of stress on one's quads.
I am not an experienced marathon runner, but I have completed 2 and did well in my age group, however, when I ran London, it was a very warm day and I suffered horrendous cramps in all muscles in my legs. It was horrible. When I reported back to some friends, who were experienced tri athletes, about this, they were horrified to hear that I didn't have any NUN tablets with me. I think that is how you spell the tablets. They are salt tablets and they (the tri athletes) wouldn't be without them when doing longer races. Perhaps it is too late for you to try them, but worth a thought for another time.
It is harder for the runners to be out on the course for 6 hours or so than the elites who are only on the road for around half that time!!
Hope you don't mind me popping in on your thread.
I would like to wish all racing this weekend every good fortune and finishing time.
Thanks Ceal. As you say those of us out there for nearly 6 hours or so are possibly going to struggle more than those out there for only 3.
Just want to Chriss and welshgje you did really well.
And good luck to those running VLM at the weekend, do you think you could post your running numbers then we can look out for you on the day
Thanks Ceal. Advice and encouragement from someone of your running pedigree is brilliant. We are all learning together on here and trying lots of variations out along the same theme, R/W/R.
And yes, I am hoping that without the climb and....descent, I will conserve a bit more energy. I agree, I think all those extra hours on the feet and legs has got to be very wearing on the muscles.
Most of us are scared first timers entering uncharted territory. Lol. So thanks for the good luck because we need it.
C
@ welshgje: well done on the run but.... 2 minutes walk is actually a little too much. That way you almost recover completely and starting again is a completely different thins than a RWR run with a shorte ratio. Maybe something to try in a training later
@ chrissie: sounds familiar, pacers that are too fast. The main danger is the start of the race. In the first kms you will feel OK and fresh and you might even wonder why you normally run so slowly during training runs
But after 16 miles or even earlier during the race you suddenly realize that it is just not feeling OK
I can't emphasize enough.... especially on the first M; start slowly!!!! When I ran my first ultra trail I just made the plan.... and was completely alone within the first mile. There were 74 runners on that distance and they all raced off like it was a 10K race. I smiled, felt extremely slow and even by being slow, I was a little too fast at the beginning but still OK and as soon as I realized I slowed down a little. Within a few miles I saw the first runners again....
Advantage of the London marathon: there are so many runners that you will no be on your own after the first mile
I actually liked being on my own but it felt strange (BTW I did NOT finish last!!)
Cheer up, start slow, visualize the finish and remember that the only goal of the first M is finishing with a smile.
Two friends just ran Paris last weekend. One of them is slightly faster than the other one and had to slow down. To be honest she was not all that slower than on her first marathon which was a disaster (wanted to finish in 4.30.... started too fast and ended in 4.50 or something and ended up not running for weeks). They now finished together in 4.54 and she felt good and she wondered why. WHY are we making such a fuss about 5 minutes more or less.... We don't get paid by the minute nor do we have to pay for extra minutes
Relax and enjoy!!
Remember that when you drop from a run to a walk that there could be someone behind you not expecting you to slow down! So be prepared for any out come of that! Once the number ease out then the run walk will become easier.
I hope that you have an idea of how often you are going to drink something. Once one becomes dehydrated then it is difficult to hydrate again. So, start fluids going straightaway. BUT do not over hydrate this is more dangerous than not drinking enough. But I am sure you all know this. Drinking too much water waters down ones electrolytes, therefore, I recommend that you drink the lucozade sports drink which is on offer. I am presuming that this is the brand still used in the race. Or maybe the disgusting tasting gels will be used by some of you. I carried these gels but unfortunately I lost at least 3 of them in the first 5 miles
But a further note on the sports drinks, I hope you have already tried the drink on offer, it doesn't suit everybody!
Drink stations are plentiful and can sometimes be difficult to get to. Forget being polite and fight for your own right to get a drink
I, personally, wouldn't stock up on loads of carbs as many recommend. I did, and felt stuffed and it was not a comfortable feeling at all. Just add a little more to your dinner the night before.
Rest, rest, rest this week. There is nothing more you can do now.
I have no doubt that I have just preached what you already know, but just on case you didn't --------------------
thanks for all the tips ceal and running max. I am doing Llanelli on Sunday so won't have the large number of runners to contend with, but that creates the 'being left alone very early on' feeling! I know in the 2 half marathons I have done this year that the temptation has been to run for a longer at the start so I don't look weird. I am going to try to avoid that on Sunday, as I know it will effect the later stages of the race more...
@ mathschick: hahaha I know what you mean but the breaks at the beginning are way more important than in the end!! So just do YOUR thing and forget about what people might say or even yell at you
But I know what you mean. People always seem to think that you are in some sort of trouble when you walk. Especially at the end. And.. people are sometimes sooooo proud if and when they 'did not have to walk'... 
@ ceal: I don't believe in carb stocking to be honest. Carbs need a lot of water and thereofr you will easily feel bloated and stuffed. Just eat properly and that is about it. Especially if you run slowly, there is quite another energy system working during the run. I once did a long training and tested blood sugars during the run. With and without food. And I also tested what happened when running with a fast finish. Well you can easily measure that you shift to another energy system! Interesting and helpful since you can adjust your training and eating regime. BTW I read about your mishap with the gels. I use a softflask and fill it with 4 gels. That way I don't have anu paper to open and I don't have to find something to get rid of the paper underway! I also seem to thrive better on 2 gels at once (half the bottle) instead of the few sips from the gel package. But on the ultra trail I used..... complan smoothies
Ditto the advice on carb loading - don't go too mad or you'll feel all bloaty and yuk
And don't be afraid to walk a little extra at the drinks stations so you can drink properly.
I managed a slow 2 miles last night and nothing broke
Thank you so much for the all the advice, it is pure gold.
Feeling ok, not too nervous. Am going to tail run at parkrun at Saturday and apart from that have no other runs planned. Cinema with the children tomorrow, so may carbo load on popcorn
BTW my number is 19654. My dot will be going very slowly! Thanks in advance if you check me out!