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RW Forum 5 - Sub 3
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Doppy - I have none to burn either, its stored fat not a beer gut you want to burn. Your muscles only contain so much glycogen and its not enough for 26.2, so you teach it to burn fat first and save the glycogen for later. So no breakfast and no nutrition. But the body is clever and will still burn nutrition on race day if you give it some. What you eat the evening before becomes more relevant though.
....its also worth pointing out that if you take a gel before you run or a sports drink then you are bypassing the fat burning and spiking your body straight into glycogen burning, once in there you have to keep feeding it or you will bonk. I dont now how long you should wait after breakfast so that it remains as breakfast and not as something that spikes glycogen burning. I dodnt have time to wait for breakfast to properly digest so running on empty is the way to go for me.
oh god I've got a lot to learn.
TR - do you have breakfast before you race, and if so how long before?
Yes, porridge, about 2 to 3 hrs I guess. On VLM day its at least 3hrs.
Nowhere near the sub 3 level but can contribute on food allergies, low iron and fuelling.
Doppy - I'm 167cm and 53kg so not too much spare fat - I do runs up to 21 miles on breakfast alone - which is usually porridge or muesli and yoghurt at least an hour before I start my run. When I first started running I was told never to take a gel before I'd been running for an hour an stick with this. In a recent marathon I took three gels but the third was a mostly because I had it in my hand and couldn't get it back in my pocket so thought that I may as well!
I'm on permanent iron tablets and still usually have low Hb and Ferritin. Take the iron with Vit C if you can and not close to having caffeine. Good veggie sources of iron are dark, leafy veg, legumes, nuts and seeds and fortified breakfast cereals.
Just to throw a spanner in the works, I always have breakfast before long runs (about 2 hours before) and usually take gels during the run. This is because your body will recover faster if you keep it fuelled. As Minni said earlier, when she runs without nutrition she feels wiped out a couple of days later. I'd rather fuel my body and have the energy to work out properly for the rest of the week.
CC2 - there is that school of thought that you an fuel as you go to aid recovery, triathletes use it (more relevany to cycling for me). But most folks dont have the time to wait 2 hours to run after breakfast. Minni did post before that she felt wiped out after running without breakfast or nutrition, but then posted that she hadnt eaten properly for the rest of the day after running.
Doppy - no, in my opinion. See what Gobi says on all this anyway.
Horses for courses TR!
I always make sure that I have some decent food after longer runs. Usually consists of a bagel, turkey and eggs (carbs & proteins). During the week after shorter runs I'll have porridge with nuts added.
I then eat normally for the rest of the day (sometimes slightly larger portions) and am always ready to run again the next day.
Find what works for you though Doppy as we are all different.
indeed, build your training around the time you are prepared to put make/put in. I'm not getting up to eat at 6am to run at 8am on a Sunday. I have eaten porridge and then run 5 mins later, but dont bother anymore.
Horses for courses indeed. Its about what works for you.
Yes, TR I did about 4 long runs last year with no breakfast and no fuel en route and had to say I felt as if I had more energy on the run, which surprised me. I struggle to eat properly after a long run and have to graze throughout the day, my stomach just can't handle much in one go, and I think perhaps I finished these more empty than normal and didn't get enough calories back in. I always felt fine the next day but on day 2 felt washed out.
I then reverted back to some porridge before long runs but I have this about 20 minutes before going so you've got me thinking about that too!
doppy - I do the same, breakfast, dog walk then run. I don't take fluid unless it's warm but I usually carry a gel and a £1 if I'm going for anything over 16 just in case I need something.
Minni - I used to be like that after runs and used chocolate milk for immediate recovery and then ate something more usually after getting clean.
Minni - LMH knows her onions, I'm with her on drinking in some calories as soon as possible. Some milk or maybe some protein powder in milk (more a turboing thing) as soon as I get back. There is an optimum window of opportunity for re-fuelling and it only lasts 20 or 30minutes after a session. Get some calories in immediately and then get snacking and then eat proper meals.
I'm another one who wakes up, quick drink, then heads off on the long run. I don't call this unfuelled - there is bags of carbs/fat onboard, and I'm on the scrawney side.
The only time I used a gel(s) was to test them out. A decent carb meal the day before has been enough to go up to marathon distances on a training run. The draw of food at the end of the run was a great motivator.
Each to there own though. It's what works for you. If it's not working then definitely an area to experiment with.
A serious discussion in here today
Food is about what works for you and is personal so if you need breakfast before a long run I would probably replicate what you expect to be your race day breakfast.
Like TR I would do my long runs on no breakfast as it suited me as mine were done at 0500, usually having a glass of water as I went out the front door. I would also just carry 2 gels if up to 20 miles. If I was running over 20 miles I would carry a 500ml bottle most likely lucozade.
The reason being a long slow run should be easy therefore fueling should not be an issue.
If I was doing a run with MP in it then the 2 gels would be used.
I always used SIS gels as these were isotonic and meant my lack of fluids was not an issue.
I did once run a 3.15 marathon on nothing just to see what impact it would have on my body and as pointed out by someone it was all in the recovery. I had a little bit more fatigue than I would have expected for the effort so there is some sense in some fueling on a long run.
Would I junk gels ? NO, I would keep looking for something that works. Check out honey stingers or Torq or SiS. All go down well.
Food -
Iron could be a problem. - supplement even if you think you get enough
As a veggie are you getting enough protein?
More over are you getting enough carbs. I know you are very small and after your report today I have a concern that you are just not eating enough to fuel a marathon training plan.
No offence but ladies do have a tendency to claim they eat far more than they really do. Spent time working with a girl who could hit every number in training up to 18 miles but once past 18 miles even jogging in training she was suffering unexpected fatigue. Turned out she was not fueling her training properly either before during or after her long run due to weight concerns. Once convinced to learn to tolerate a gel and to eat better(she put on a few KGS) her times tumbled.
Just a thought.
Another vote here for the High 5 Isogels. They're like a mouthful of very weak squash with no sweet taste or stickyness and I've found them much easier to take as they don't need washing down with water. I remember my first London Marathon using Lucozade gels and drinks and by the end I'd had so much sweet stuff that I almost felt like throwing up, and couldn't face anything sweet for about 3 days afterwards. It was a lot better when I switched to the High 5 regular gels, but having now tried their Isogels I wouldn't switch back. I train with whatever drink they're going to give us in the race so that I'm used to it, but ignore any gels that are going to get handed out in favour of my own.
I have to eat soon after waking up, running or not. For long runs I don't use gels, unless there's a MP element, when I'll carry one just in case. I'm going to try Clif Shot Bloks this year. They taste nice - like firm jelly cubes.
Yesterday's 18 was grim. It rained hard for the first eleven and it was blowing force 6-7. I ended up running at 7:08, partly to stay warm enough to survive! Will have to try running slower another time!
TR - I used to always take recovery drinks and got out the habit for some reason. Must try harder.
Gobi - I agree re the eating. I have someone look at my food dairy for a week, along with the training I do and I averaged about 400 calories a day short. My long run day was exceptionally low - something like 1500 cals and this was along with a 20 mile run. It was interesting to see in black and white.
Dobby - I have downloaded the My Fitness App to log my food for a time. It gives you a breakdown of calories, carbs, protein, fat etc so its easy to see what you might getting too much or not enough of.
gobi I used to do the fitness app and I did throw up a few surprises about my diet but I lost interest in it when I wasn't sure how to put in certain foods that I was making ie lasagne, stews pasta dishes.mi am making a big effort to eat more and drink lots of water after all the comments here. I was so fed up at my worse ever 20 miler yesterday especially as it was the slowest I have ever run. I expected to feel great. Oh well onwards and upwards. it will get better I know?.....
doppy - on the one I've got you can put your own recipies in so get all the information. Its a bit of a faff but worth it if you really want to see what you're having.
I can't add anything about the sub-3 training, but I find myfitnesspal is quite good. If you have meals you eat regularly you can set them up as a meal on MFP and then it is easy to add them each time you eat them. It may take a bit of time setting up the meal in MFP initially, but once you've done that it's quite easy to add the meal when you consume it.
You can also use MFP to estimate how many calories you've burned during exercise so you can use it to help ensure you eat enough before or after an LSR for example. I'm not sure how accurate the calorie burning estimates are, but they are probably useful as a guide anyway.
I don't tend to use MFP in the "daily" setting, but use it to see what I've consumed/burned over a week. I find this better as the day before an LSR I purposefully may eat over my daily calorie allowance but over the course of the week it evens out.
Hi Gobi, my VMLM GFA qualifier was 3:01 in October 2012. I haven't run a race since then, but have run 2,380mi in the last 12months at an average of 7:19min/mi, mixing it up with long runs, threshold sessions, intervals and recovery runs.
I'm training to run 2:49 in April. It will be my third marathon.
Just saying that is very aggressive and not convinced you are building the aerobic engine well running at that effort.
Definitely dont think it is necessary.
doppy: don't worry about the one 20 miler that didn't go to plan. Everyone of us has an occasional shit run and sometimes we don't even know why. At least you have a good explanation why yours went tits up (dodgy gels) so leave it behind it and focus on the next work out. And it's still a decent amount of miles in the bank
Last year I trained keeping the LSR slow. I had a quick scan of my log book. All LSR's of 20+M averaged around the 7:45 - 7:55 mark for a 2:47:xx marathon. I did have the occassional LR with some pace thrown in, but this was the exception.