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Hi Angela, that’s a fantastic improvement – so pleased for you! The run you propose is very similar to what Isabel will be doing this weekend, when she runs Monaco Half. The only difference is that Monaco Half is actually about 14.5 miles (?!!) and she isn’t doing external miles to warm up or cool down. She is doing the bulk at MP (the warm-up is part of the distance) and then finishing faster (at HMP). I think 17 is just about OK but really, do you need to do that far the week after a 20 miler? I would say not. Perhaps think about reducing your w-up and c-down to 1 mile each side, so 15 total. Good luck!
Shady
Hi Shady
To me the more you can do at marathon pace the better for me and the alternate marathon pace session is just an useful tool to practice marathon pace and up the training speed and give you a good session as much as prepare you for that pace but a big block is better training for adapting you for that speed.
This year I got a lot of my group on their 20s to actually do the marathon pace on their third five mile so they aren't pushing too hard for too long while tired but also get used to maintaining a reasonable pace over those last few miles while tired without totally exhausing themselves.
The key is obviously to get yourself fitter for the race but not make yourself so tired that you are weaker for the race, which used to happen to me in my younger days when I raced 20 miles too hard and too cllose to the marathon.
Angela
Like Sam I think your plan seems generally ok. Normally I would prefer more miles three weeks out but as you did a 20 last week then the need is less. and as you are running at marathon pace, then I think that's probably fast enough. I don't see a problem in you running 17 as long as the non half-marathon miles are slow and relaxed and would be better if you could find some grass to run on
Uluru, sorry to hear about your stomach woes. It’s a tricky one – and if you’re running as long as a marathon, it’s going to be difficult to get enough carbs in from, say, a sports drink, without drinking a huge amount of fluid. Have you tried real food, like ripe banana or dried fruit? Might be worth a go. There’s also a company that does sachets of honey, which might be worth a try. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wedderspoon-Organic-Active-Manuka-Sachets/dp/B00DL1URVC The other thing to consider (I was speaking to a nutritionist from the English Institute of Sport recently and he said that they have had some success with this with athletes with gastrointestinal issues) is colostrum . I have no personal experience of it but you can read a bit about it here: http://www.neovite.com/benefits/details.asp?id=28
Uluru
Have you tried jelly beans - they are a great fuel and much easier to eat though personally I do need some liquid with them in the last 5 miles as my mouth dries.
I have found gels a great help but remember all the top marathoners managed without them perfectly well up to the 70s and 80s when most of the top British marathon performances were set so it is possible to survive without them.
But you do need to try and find things that will help you in the next few weeks so experiment with other things (energy bars?)
Caf - good luck with the sub-3
in theory having a taper should make you fresher and less susceptible to illness so not sure why training harder 3 weeks before the marathon will make you healthier but you can try a change if you think it would help, However, also make a special effort with your diet - vitamin C and zinc etc as well as lots of fluids and I'm sure I don't need to say but wash you hands even more regularly than normal and avoid sneezing friends and children!
Hi Katy – stop right there!!
If you’re feeling on the edge, I would definitely back off. You have a great half time, and you have got some really good long runs in the bag. 55 is pretty high mileage in my book, and you’ll be absolutely fine to cut that final long run down to 18. You should defo be on for that GFA time judging on that 20 miler you did.
As for your week’s training structure. Hmmm! It’s not ideal to do your tempo run the day before your 20 miler – but given that you’ve put 8 miles at tempo, I don’t think we are singing from the same hymn sheet in terms of definitions. In my definition, a tempo run is the pace you could sustain for approx an hour in race conditions – so either a) you’re running a bit slower than this or b) you’re doing a very tough session the day before a long run! If it’s the latter, I’d cut the distance right down. Even if it’s the former, I would try to space those two out by a day. Think about following a hard-easy structure. So any hard day – be it hard because it’s very long, or because it’s very intense – should be followed by a recovery or rest day. The day after a 20 miler, I’d personally be maxing out at about 30 mins for a recovery run too. Anyway, sounds like you’re doing great and good luck with the race.
Katy1 - agree with Sam you need to change things around and make sure the two hardest and two of the 3 most important sessions are spaced out.
DrS2 – I think mixing some biking with the running on long run days is a great idea outside of the actual marathon build-up (say, the key 16 weeks) but also within it, within reason. I often get injury-prone runners to alternate between a long run and a long bike ride from week to week.
I’d also reassess your surface and pace for these long runs – I go off road for long runs where possible, which helps slow the pace down whilst still being time on feet. I think as long as mileage is consistent with enough runs of 2.30 plus, it’s not essential to do lots of 20+ long runs. I generally only put a couple in when a runner is less experienced in marathoning and isn’t going to be getting round in 3 hrs or less - the length of the run and the time it takes to recover can be counterproductive if you try to do too many very long ones...
Hello - hope the tea is still flowing.
My question relates to an injury, but it may be similar to Sam's 'Stevelovesbacon' Asics 26.2 candidate from last year.
Two weeks ago during the perfect London marathon training campaign, I fell on the road and landed heavily on my knee. I've iced, rested and used anti-inflammatory tablets and creams since, but still the pain is there. Nothing feels like ligament or muscle damage and I seem to remember Steve bruised his bone. I'm wondering whether something like this is possible? Nothing clicks or locks or gives way but there is a definite ache (particularly going down slopes and stairs). Do you think with 4 weeks to go London is still on the cards? I can walk and gentle run on it but I know it's a long way from 100%.
I'm seeing a sports physio next week, but it's more the mental disappointment at possibly having to withdraw that's harder to bear than the knee pain.
Abi (PS great article the other week about how swimming pools would be so much better with advisors pool-side. Nail on the head!)
Hi, I ran 2.49 at last year VLM following a few mishaps, lost 1min at start and got pacing completely wrong and ran last 6 miles at 6min/mile. I've been training harder this year 80-100miles/week and picked up a few Achilles niggles that have made me miss a few weeks from 16week schedule but more importantly I've not run as many MP paced runs as I've been worrying about Achilles but done 12x15, 2x22, 3x18 and 12x15miles at around 6.45-7.30pace. Do you think I'll see an improvement or should I race 2:49 again, unfortunately I've missed all my race training days (1/2 marathon) to give me an idea of my pace.
Roundman - well done on the training and the half-marathon. I do think it is important to fill as relaxed for as long as you can in a marathon and even so it as a 20 mile warm up for a 10km race. So get to 20 with something in hand and then race it as well as you can. Of course some people suffer badly in that last 10km whatever pace they have raced at and some like to get a little time in hand.
Based on your half you are capable of a high 2:50s. So I would aim for that and try and run relaxed to halfway in 1:29 and if you feel ok just try and maintain that pace or very slightly faster up to 20 miles. If you were capable of a mid 2:50s, then you should be able to up it even further past 20 miles but if you feel tired just try and maintain it as best as you can.
It is notable that many of the world's fastest marathons have been set with faster second halfs but these runners train 140 miles a week and personally I have found it hard enough just maintaining a pace.
However, if you are relaxed and running within yourself in that first half then acceleration is possible.
Hi Steve, it's difficult to predict how you're going to perform with no race performances to use as reference points and having lost a few weeks of training. You've certainly achieved a good volume of longer runs so should have no issue with endurance but speed endurance is the sticky question! You may need to run this one on feel, without a specific finish goal in mind - I'd aim for a slightly conservative start and then see how you feel. Good luck...
DRs2
I think some biking is very good but having done no running and a fair bit of cycling the last month am about to find out just what a replacement activity it is!
I do think mixing the two can keep up endurance but reduce the impact and chance of injuries but it's not exactly the same.
Generally the body seems to cope with long runs and with speedwork but doesn't always like combining the two so you do need to be careful with doing too many longer harder runs as the recovery is so much longer.
agree with Sam softer surfaces are better
While I have had a bad last few months, I did go a long time without too many problems by constantly going to osteos and chiros to get any minor problems sorted before they come major problems so if you can afford pyysio, chiro or osteo I would go and not just when you are injured and desparate!
Futurity I would add that it's the first long run in heat that's the worst and luckily the warm spell has come earlier this year rather than happen in marathon week.
On all remaining runs, make sure you are well hydrated before the run and try some of Sam's suggestions.
Steve P
Having missed well over a month I would kill for that many long runs. You have missed a bit but that's still sufficient training to at least have a go at a PB. I would suggest setting off slightly inside PB pace but take a rain check at 15 miles and see whether you are at your limits and how you feel. if you feel good push on a bit and use that extra training before the break or if not just try and maintain a sub 2:50 pace to the finish
Abigail. I haven't run for a month but am still intending to do London if healthy - it will just be a lot slower than I was hoping a few months ago.
If you are mentally prepared to run slower and think you are healthy enough to do, then I would give it a go.
I had something similar to you when I fell many years ago and was fine a few weeks later and if the Physio says ok then a mild ache is hopefully nothing to worry about and doesn't mean you are damaging anything.
obviously if anyone has any further questions they can ask away on the Asics threads.
Wardi I would add - one area of training which seems to work well with Masters is mixed pace speed training as it makes it more interesting and gives a better range of paces and gives a better feel for pacing and what speeds you use in different races.
ie mile reps instead of six all at the same speed throughout. Run number one accelerating each lap (ie 93, 91, 89, 87 for a sub 6 runner), number two, 400m hard, 200m float, 400m hard, 200m float, 400m hard, number 3 faster straights easier bends, number 4 do 50m steady, 150m hard x 8, number five staret very fast and run each lap slower (ie 85, 89, 92, 94) and then last one 3 laps steady and 1 lap hard ie 93, 93, 93, 81)
also don't worry about having a week or two the end of season as sometimes it is easier to get fitter if you have had a break and can feel an improvement in fitness week on week rather than just try and maintain a level for a long time. Ie I was running well for me mber but was was in my worst ever shape by some distance in September.
Thank you Steve - good luck in London too!
Hi Abi - if it's just some bruising, then 4 weeks is plenty of time for it to ease in time for London. The important thing is to maintain your fitness with non-painful cross training in the meantime - and gentle running where possible. Good that there's no locking or clicking - but let the sports physio do a proper assessment to see what we're dealing with. Hopefully, it's on the mend already and you'll be on that start line. All those 'perfect' weeks of training will definitely stand you in good stead, despite the hiccup. Good luck!
Hi Sam & Steve
just to say thank you so much for your great advice, you have really helped & reassured me! Really appreciate it!
Katy
Sam and Steve, thanks v much for your advice! The 2 miles either side of the race is literally because that's how far away I live from the start/finish!
. I could always walk part of it too, but unfortunately there isn't a grass option. 
have a great weekend!!
Thank you so much for your help Sam. Today I managed to take on a banana and 2 gels without an incident on my 18 mile run... just took the gels slowly over a couple of km's. Took the banana first so that may have settled my tummy.
Thanks Sam......much appreciated!