Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Paris Marathon 2015
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
I've tried the honey stingers - naturally sweet type things and they're quite nice. I think I might try real food too. I know that TIE Fighter fuels his training runs on jaffa cakes and dextro energy tablets.
I've been experimenting with dropping my carb snack 30 minutes prior to a run, and swapping it for a scoop of protein powder in water instead. I feel so much better for it on the run - I'm getting a slightly 'grumbly' tum but I think I just need to make sure I finish it slightly earlier than 30 minutes.
Thanks charlie4, that's great. I've only run one marathon all the way once, which was my first Paris. I loved doing that, it feels so different! I usually manage to run all of my training runs so I'll keep the walk/run as my B plan, I think. I'll definitely have a look at Galloway too. There might be a walk/run sub 4 plan
As Jimbob states, the LSR is primarially to build endurace and not knacker your body in doing so. You don't want to 'race' times 20 miles only to get worn out and no be able to race the 26.2 you were training for!
In those long runs you could take gels, or you could not. By becoming fat adapted or at the very least more efficient at burning fat you don't necesarially remove 'the wall' but you can perhaps push it back so rather than hitting it at 18 miles it might be 22 therefore requiring less 'in race' fuel.
What I started saying about but didn't finish was that Tom was training specifically to do Manchester 'fat adapted' and ended up doing a 2:55 (I think?, it was defo sub 3) without taking anything other than a sip of water about mile 23.
I'm also terrible with sugary things. I eat more of the kids sweets than they do - especially when they have gone to bed! I'm trying to go completely sugar free for May. 4.5 days in and so far so good! I've a 103 mile cycle on Sunday (all part of the ironman training) and whilst I know I'll need to refuel in that and that there will probably be some natural sugar involved (e.g. bananas) I'm planning on doing it without the use of gels / sweets etc
Thanks for that Sunnysider Phil, I will look back in the Marathon Talk podcasts and see if I can get to the one where they're talking about his marathon etc!
KS - I seem to remember that Kaz was a fan of the walk/run thing and did her sub-4 this way.
Heroine - Learning to fat burn is certainly one of the reasons for the 's' in LSR. I suppose that recovery is the other big reason - many of us don't have your rather wonderful ability to recover fast. I listened to that episode of MT a few months ago and also came away a bit confused. I think, its different for elites with their super high mileage; they get to practice efficiency at fat-burning more regularly then the average recreational runner. I can tolerate gels in water quite well and I've never bonked so I'm sticking with them.
Meh, wonderful ability to recover fast indeed! I am struggling after VLM, put on 5lbs due to excessively eating every cake, sandwich and chocolate bar in sight. Paris I was absolutely perfect but VLM broke me, I'm bloated, lethargic, struggling with a knee injury and generally just really peed off. Conversely my husband is on the up and really looking forward to Stockholm, so at least one of us might get to fly the flag of success!
ahhh HIAHS. soz u feeling a bit cack. Nothing like a bit of leg pain to batter the moral down. Rest that knee for a couple more days and then keep the jogging light. You don't need to taper for Stockholm, so you could do some short very fast runs that week and the week prior. No need to batter yourself too much. For Amsterdam we'll plot your path to the Championship pen.
Heroine - you'll be back soon enough
BM - hope you're right, im raring to go and everything else is absolutely fine but the knee is currently enemy #1!
List Fairy - can you stick me down for the Oxford half marathon on October 11th, please? I would be doing 12m @ MP(+15s) anyway, one week out from the Dam so can't see the harm of an extra mile, good pacing practice at least. Just have to keep a lid on the taper and the pace down to what's on the plan. Plus, it's my home city, rude not to!
I don't where I stand on the gels debate and marathons, trail and error stage still. I defo try not to use them for LSR's and anything below 16m. Zipvit gels (x4) mixed with water were good in Paris, could've possibly done with one more...
Sorry to hear about your kniggly knee HIAHS, you are a proper trooper and doing so well at the moment with your running. In my humble opinion; give yourself some rest and time to recover from your mighty leaps forward.
Welcome SunnysiderPhil, stick around and enjoy the fun.
RR - is a walk/run strategy something one has to get used to or can you just do it on the day and is the walk a brisk walk or lollygagger mope along?
If you intend to run/walk, you need to train the same way. It needs the same planning an dedication as any other form of training. Although it sounds easier, it is not necessarily so. I think anyone who is seriously interested in run/walk should read Jeff Galloway's book or visit his website.
I understand theory of optimising fat production for endurance base.
Previously I would run 15-30 seconds slower than target marathon pace which was 8:30 for sub 3:45. However, this year I'm targeting sub 3:30, my pace has improved, so I thought I'd try a MP two weeks ago at 8:00 and managed 17 miles averaging 7:52 all splits sub 8:00 pace.
This gives me great confidence that I can maintain my pace at that speed over long distance however although I felt great on the day it tired my legs for the mid week and weekend runs that followed last week.
I think this is why they don't recommend that approach. So my question is do I run my next long runs slower and at what pace, eg MP +15, MP + 30. I have two more long runs planned, one at 18 miles then 20 miles before I taper. This weekend is Leeds Half so it's massage today and take it easy until Sunday.
Should my last long run which is 3 weeks out from Liverpool (14/6) be at marathon pace or perhaps some of it (which part) at MP or do I simply 'trust' I can run 26.2 at the improved pace based on my improved shorter races and the endurance training???
I have no credentials for giving advice but these are my thoughts. It sounds very likely that you can hit your target, all being well on the day. You need to make sure you don't over cook it before hand and 'leave your best miles in training' as they say. Maybe the next LSRs could be 18m at MP + 30, then 20m at MP +15 (just before the taper). Or the last one could be 20m with 14m at MP ( more like the the P&D way). I think you can trust that you'll find the last 6.2m on race day, after a good taper. Sounds like things are going really well
Yes, thank you for the advice (and RR too), as experienced run;/walkers I really appreciate it. I in no way think it's easier, I just think it might be a viable option for me as I seem to feel so much better with regular walk breaks.
I had a look at Galloway's website yesterday after charlie4's recommendation (thank you!) and it looks good - definitely tough, and I can see the temptation to extend the walk breaks as the race wears on! I might see if I can practice the run/walk on a mid week run, to see how it feels.
I did a nice 1M WU/1M T/1M CD last night with the Mr - speedy mile was 8:08min/mil and I wasn't wrecked at the end, so that's pretty good the day after a LVVVVVVSR. 5M Race tonight 2/3 so we'll see how that goes!
If you have a Garmin it's really easy to set for walk / run timings. I'm now so programmed to "run at the beep" that I just do as I told slavishly, even when I'm knackered! In fact, now I think of it, Pavlov's dogs have nothing on me!!!
When BRF really wanted a sub5 in New York, I agreed to pace her to it as I just wanted to enjoy NY and run with her, having done the Duke City Marathon just 2 weeks prior. So we decided to go with a 7:1 run:walk as when I calculated it out knowing the pace I thought she could maintain in the run phase, we should come in just under 5. It was a fantastic strategy for a few reasons. The first half at least felt very comfortable to her and I constantly had to reign her pace back. After about 18 miles, when she was starting to tire, instead of thinking about how many miles we had left, we thought abut how many cycles we had left Somehow "only 4 cycles to go" seems way, way less than "32 minutes to go".
Although I don't use run:walk in a marathon usually, I am planning a more structured run:walk for Comrades, as it seems dot work out pretty well on the Strolling Jim Ultra I did this past weekend. 12:2 seems about right.
Hi Suze - can I have a go at tackling this issue of being 'fat-adapted' or 'not needing gels' as there's still a lot of room for misunderstanding.
The body always has three energy systems on the go and they are best suited for different things. All our energy needs to be finally converted into ATP, the stuff that makes cells work. Every living creature uses this same mechanism for fuelling cells. We have about 3 seconds worth of ATP in our muscles at any one time.
For short, intensive bursts of energy, we have anaerobic use of blood sugar - say we are doing a 100m sprint or riding a bike up a hill. This provides lots of ATP quickly but is very energy inefficient. Up to 19x more blood sugar is used like this than in the second energy system.
Aerobic use of blood sugar is when oxygen is mixed with glycogen to produce ATP. Lactic acid is a byproduct. Depending on the state of our training, our body can contain as much as 300-400g of glycogen, in our liver, muscles and bloodstream. Good training can improve this 'stored level'. Depending on how hard we are exercising, we will typically use up the majority of the glycogen within 60-120 minutes. You can tell how much of this energy you are using up by how much oxygen you have to take in at the same time - the harder the breathing, the quicker the energy goes.
The final energy system is stored fat. We all have lots of this. Enough to complete 50-100 marathons. The trouble with fat is that there is no metabolic path to ATP. It has to convert into carbohydrates (sugars) first. So it's slow to arrive. It trickles into the blood. Which is why we inevitably slow down when we 'hit the wall' (runners) or 'bonk' (cyclists).
Our body is always burning a mixture of system 2 and system 3 when we run marathons, always a proportion of fat and glycogen together, never 100% one and none the other.
LSR training helps to improve (A) the ease at which our body metabolises fat into sugars. It also helps to improve (B) the overall energy efficiency of our running by giving us better gait, less weight etc so we need less energy to finish a distance. And thirdly (C) it helps us increase our store of glycogen in our body. These all happen on a sliding scale. So for someone to describe themselves as 'fat-adapted' is pretty misleading because they could mean a combination of A,B, or C.
So, can we train ourselves to not need gels or not? Well it depends on how fast you want to go. There is not an athlete alive who stores enough glycogen to run a marathon. None. So what gives? Reduce your speed to require less energy or add some fuel to maintain speed? Pretty much everyone goes with the second option.
As Jimbob suggested, taking gels late in a race doesn't make sense. You need to get them in early so they can be digested and used. We all have the ability to burn off glycogen quicker than our bodies can absorb carbs, even fast-ingestion stuff like sugary gels.
Should we train with gels or without? Well, to train (A), fat metabolism, it's better to do some training without additional energy inputs like sports drinks, gels, food. But it hurts and it's is dangerous. You can become dizzy, you can collapse, it hurts like hell (I have on several occasions run myself into the ground doing this and it is very distressing for passerby as you look close to death!). I suggest not to try it unless you are accompanied and are a masochist/ want it badly!
Most of the time, deliberately training without carbs means you will be miserable, hurt lots and go slow. So i suggest you take just enough gels (etc.) to keep you going steady. Don't overload with stuff, try to get away with the minimum. So on a 20 mile run, i would aim to have a few sips of sport drink, or 1-2 gels max. It still leaves plenty of room for improvinf fat metabolisation. I hop
...e this is helpful for you.
On another note, got in a terrific tempo run last night. 10kms fast, 4kms to cool down. Avg HR around 92%. Very enjoyable in an "I-want-to-get-fit" kind of way.
Knee hurts a bit today. Due to a business trip I've had to postpone my MRI until 2nd June.
Thanks TD - for once it's not me asking a question, I think that goes to HIAHS this time!
My main 'concern' at the moment is that they say any carb intake ruins the fat-burning machine (as it were), so even taking a couple of gels sounds like it isn't ideal. He mentioned low GI foods being the best way around it. I need to listen again because nothing so far has been pro-carbs which isn't particularly conventional, but times move on so maybe one day we'll all be looking back wondering why we were so desperate to guzzle sugary liquid during our runs??!
Great post there by T-D the science is put much better than I did!
I disagree with the final part though. As mentioned I do all my training without sports drinks / gels etc. and I've never had the dizzyness, hurt nor the 'close to death look' - at least I don't think I have! Likewise, I don't think a lack of gels makes me miserable - though I do have to make sure I don't raid the cupboards when I get in for instant gratification in sweet things!
That said, I have nothing against gels, I just try to limit their intake to races!
Whilst I'm a regular listener to M-Talk I also listen to some other podcasts from time to time if a particular topic interests me. HIAHS, if you want to try to understand this a bit more there are some other podcasts I can recommend. It's been a while since I've listened to them but I think this is the one that discusses it a lot.
http://runneracademy.com/ra020-matt-fitzgerald-new-rules-of-half-marathon-nutrition/
but, there might also be stuff on this one
http://runneracademy.com/ra020-matt-fitzgerald-new-rules-of-half-marathon-nutrition/
This is also quite a good listen
http://runneracademy.com/ra052-matt-fitzgerald-diet-cults/
Being married with a young family I tend to eat all sorts. Mostly its home cooked but I don't (and neither want to!) follow any particular diet to assist my training, The long hours I put in training is enough for them without me inflicting food choices as well!
That said, where I have a choice in what I eat I do try to listen to all these different points of view influence my choices. I'll try to have a 'full fat' yoghurt (albeit they are almost impossible to find!) rather than a 0% fat yoghurt which is pumped with sugar / sweetners. I'll have butter not 'spread' but I'll have it on my toast (grains) and eat cereals etc. which I'm more than happy to eat and have no plans to change!
I believe everything in moderation is ok and thats why I go for the influence rather than strictly follow approach. I do like the fact that I can do my training, particularly long runs on natural food though rather than liquified sugar shots!
Hi SP, thanks for your reply, i'll definitely check those links out! I've been eating horrendously of late but we know that we've really slipped compared to Aug/Sept of last year. Yesterday was a horribly tough day where I finally put my foot down and cut out the daily cake, sandwich and Cornetto that I've been having, yesterday was painful, I suspect today will be too
. But other than those very silly items that I know I can't get away with my diet is healthy, we don't follow a particular 'thing' like paleo etc (although the Marathon Talk guy was suggesting that going along those lines would be the healthiest option for runners wanting to use fat-burning rather than gels) our diet doesn't include processed foods and isn't massively high in carbs. Our success came from getting rid of bread, pasta, puddings, cakes and sweets and I had to drastically cut portion sizes as well. It's all creeped back in since Xmas really but until recently we've been maintaining our weight loss quite well.
In any case I'm not so concerned about every day diet, I know exactly what we need to do there, but I do want to look into training without carbs if it will make it easier on race day. The Marathon Talk guy (Barry Murray) said that the premise of needing carbs every 30-45mins (or whatever) doesn't hold up to scrutiny when you look at the bio-chemistry of it all, and that what really needs fuelling by a hit of sugar is your brain rather than your muscles, but this could be done by having 1 or 2 jelly babies rather than 6 gels throughout a marathon!
He also said that the breakfast that we have pre-race is completely irrelevant as it won't be used during the race anyway, so as long as it doesn't make us ill then trying to pack in a load of carbs 3 hours before the race wouldn't make any difference. I was surprised by that but equally I have been thinking for a while whether 3hrs is really enough for the food to have gone through the body enough to actually be used as fuel.
I think probably what you eat the day before is the most important for fuelling you during the race, but I'd always eat breakfast a few hours before, for the same reason I'd eat breakfast on any morning - I'm hungry, and if I don't eat it I'll be even hungrier. I could probably train myself to run without eating anything, but any time I've tried to run on empty it has been just that, a slow plod through treacle run that gets cut short if possible. I don't eat a massive breakfast before a run, but it will usually involve a banana on something.
As a bonus, I'm normally the only one up at that time so I get to eat it and drink my tea in peace and quiet, possibly my main motivation for running!
Plus 1 for breakfast !! ......I don't function well without it .....ever