Hydration on long rides

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  • jelly beanjelly bean ✭✭✭

    There's an argument for running without carbs in that you have to use fat which you have a lot of (not you personally DK) but I'm not sure you can adapt to not having water other than mentally putting up with it.

    Many many years ago as a school boy I cycled relatively long distances and only had one bottle on the bike, on occasion I knocked on peoples doors and asked for a drink of water.  If you cycle the same routes you could find someone with a tap in the front garden and ask if you can fill up any time you're passing.  There are also more public taps around than you realise.

  • jelly beanjelly bean ✭✭✭

    Thinking about this, in my one excursion into tri I drank about 4ltr on the 112m bike bit and had to stop twice for a pee.  Did I drink too much or not enough?

  • DK,Dave, I think its important not to get the affect and benefit of training fasted confused with the the affect and lack of benefit of training dehydrated.

    The body can go along time without food as it has, even in slim people ample stores that it can convert to energy, the same is not true with water.

     

    Proper Fluid Replacement to Maintain Athletic Performance

    Ensuring adequate hydration includes initiating exercise in a euhydrated state and matching fluid intake to sweat rate during exercise (Osterburg, Horswill, & Baker, 2009). Fluid replacement should approximate sweat and urine losses and at least maintain hydration at less than 2 percent body weight reduction. This generally requires 200 to 300 mL (7 to 10 fl oz) every 10 to 20 minutes during exercise. Proper hydration during exercise will influence cardiovascular function, thermoregulatory function, muscle functioning, fluid volume status, and exercise performance (Casa et al., 2000). The goal of drinking during exercise is to prevent excessive dehydration (2 percent body weight loss from water deficit) and excessive changes in electrolyte balance to avert compromised exercise performance (Sawka & Burke, 2007). Fluid ingestion may also influence performance by delaying the evolution of core temperature by acting as a “heat sink.” An increased central drive and motivation may also be experienced by being well hydrated.

    In an effort to examine hydration on different forms of exercise, such as strength, power, and resistance exercise, Judelson et al. (2007) studied seven healthy males. The subjects were tested under three conditions: euhydrated, hypohydrated by 2.5 percent body mass, and hypohydrated by 5 percent body mass. The subjects performed a vertical jump test, 1RM back squat, and a resistance exercise challenge that consisted of 10 reps per six sets. Under the hypohydrated conditions, subjects experienced a much higher core temperature, compared to the euhydrated condition under which more work in the first five sets were completed than the while hypohydrated. The biggest effect of hypohydration came during the resistance exercise challenge. It was also noticed that central activation of the CNS and PNS seemed to have been reduced, resulting in a more rapid fatigue. There was no significant difference in strength and power between the groups, however, vertical jump height increased as total body decreased regardless of group (Judelson et al., 2007).

    Some, but not all, exercise is going to be affected by being hydrated or dehydrated. Athletes involved in shorter anaerobic exercises have less physiologic changes occurring and therefore can experience an increase in performance due to less body mass by being slightly hypohydrated. Longer, more aerobic exercises use more total body water and therefore need to be replenished during exercise. Replenishing the water stores will influence several factors and keep the athlete hydrated enough to perform at his or her best capabilities.

    So, given the above why would you, even in training want to perform below the best of your ability?

    I guess my point is I am not going to change my drinking habits I just wanted to know if anyone has a good idea about how I can carry more fluid while out on rides in excess  of 3 hours.

     

     

  • IronbawsIronbaws ✭✭✭

    I know someone who suffered the unfortunate effects from chronic under-hydration in training and events, and he got very very ill. I think everybody is different and one needs to get to know their body and how much fluid it requires. I need about 750ml per hour and on long training rides, I either factor in a shop stop on the way, or attach my saddle bottle holders or my aero bar bottle. The extra weight is also an added bit of training too image

  • popsiderpopsider ✭✭✭

    http://www.runnersworld.com/drinks-hydration/thirst-v-dehydration-the-continuing-saga

    We can all chuck academic studies at each other but common sense should tell you that if moderate dehydration was that much of a performance inhibitor then top marathons where the runners lose significant weight during a race would see mile splits drop off a cliff during the race - and they don't.    

    Obviously there's no harm in drinking 750ml an hour but for the vast majority there's no benefit to be doing that on a training ride, that's why in a group of experienced cyclists and triathletes none of them will.   

  • I ran 11 miles this afternoon with only a little bottle of water in my hand, cos I knew I wasn't doing anything afterwards apart from drink coffee,



    If I had been doing something after the run I would have drunk more
  • Pretty much all my long rides have a run at the end even if its just 5km like today and experience has taught me if I drink enough they don't hurt nearly as much.

     

     

  • Duda - wtf was that, the copy and paste - dont you think we all know the possible effects of sever hydration. your original post was asking what people do on a training ride in regards to carrying over a couple of bottles of water and as far as i can see you have had a few answers. If you went out with a couple of bottles and they didnt quite last the length of your ride you arent massively dehydrated so no biggy. You seem to have all your evidence at hand to argue other peoples responses of "go without" so you either have to stump up £1 for a bottle of water, ask for some at a house or something or do what i do and use canal path taps or church taps - the other week i did actually buy a drink - it was a frijj milk thing for 66p - if you dont like paying for water buy a pint of milk for 45p. The only thing i can add is that i hope you never do ultras.

     

  • jelly bean - i have a fat reverse, a big fat reserve image

     

  • So with all your experience, learn to buy some fecking water
  • Yeah I get that your not going for a pb run off the bike in training. However, I feel you have to get used to drinking when your not thirsty. If your thirsty it's quite possibly too late to recover in a race situation. It's all too easy to cycle for hours concentrating on the pace and not really feeling thirsty and putting off taking on fluid but you may well pay for it later on in a race if that's what you are used to.

    Although of course every body and training philosophy is different.

    If I was cycling for 5 hours, I feel I would benefit more from practicing getting nutrition right by going hard for 3 hours, stopping to refuel then going hard for another 2 rather than going for 5 and fading with a nutrition deficit

  • jelly - i dont think your body can adapt to that well to low level hydration but as you say its a mental thing and for me if you have practiced it in training it kind of makes it easier when you are forced to do it. A couple of months back my bladder split and i kind of cut my run short after about 22 miles, if this had happened in a race i dont know what i would have done - probably just ran on through, but doing it in training makes you aware of how you are going to feel in similar situations. probably a pointless exercise but nothing ventured and all that image

     

  • DK, sorry if I have wound you up that was not my intention at all. You are right I have had a some answers and some good ideas.

     

    Thank you.

  • That being said I'm not impartial to a bit of dehydration and pain on a training run to mimic a race. 

  • GraemeKGraemeK ✭✭✭
    Who are we to tell the guy what he should or shouldn't drink based on our own thirst? If he wants to drink 1x750ml bottle per hour then fine, that's his choice. Just don't use a camelback on a roadbike. It's as wrong as the guy I saw yesterday on a black Bianchi with deep section wheels wearing baggy clothes, flat pedals and an ipod on.
  • Dave The Ex- Spartan wrote (see)
    So with all your experience, learn to buy some fecking water

    image fair enough, sorry if I have annoyed you too!

    It has been interesting to see all the different responses and strategies to hydration or dehydration.  

  • It's ok ....



    But the original question seems to gave morphed...
  • I think that was my trying to explain (badly) why I want to carry more than two bottles.

  • popsiderpopsider ✭✭✭

    For the Marmotte I bought a couple of one litre bottles - so that would give you another 500ml or another 40 minutes or so riding at your preferred rate of consumptionimage 

    If you go that route I'd make sure your bottle cages are very secure as the bigger bottles project a long way - I did that by wrapping insulating tape round the edge of the cage so the bottles were a bit tighter.   

    Beyond that you are probably looking at a behind the seat bottle cage or a saddle bag with a bottle in it.   I've never used a camelback so I couldn't comment but someone must like them.   

     

  • jelly beanjelly bean ✭✭✭

    DK, I had to laugh at the split bladder..it's a hard man that doesn't head to A&E with a split bladder.

    Duda you need to read a bit more, the idea that fluids need to be replenished at the same rate as they are lost is wrong.  Both fat and glycogen tie up water which is lost or made available when they are used.  Therefore if you loose 1ltr an hour and are capable of absorbing 750ml you could be over hydrating as the water held in fat and glycogen can't and don't need to be replaced on the fly. 

    Take a look at Noakes 1985 (Law of Running) there are some figures of interest there and there are some interesting interviews with him on Marathontalk. The notion that the more you drink on the bike the better placed you will be on the run may not be the case.  A car doesn't need to have a full tank to keep going you just have to put enough in so empty isn't reached. 

    I do agree though that if you're doing 2 sessions per day 6 days per week you need to stay on top of the hydration in each session not to get through the session but to prevent a deficit 3 or 4 sessions down the line.  I used to drink a pint of water as soon as I got up, go out to run drink another on my return and then have breakfast.

    I find that if I'm doing 5 runs per week consistently combined with working outdoors, I can drop 5lbs or more between Monday and Friday but it's regained over the weekend, it's all water loss and and is about 3% of body weight.  So how come I still function?

    In longer distance races I've found that if I start hydrated and by that I mean being hydrated over the 3 days beforehand, on race day I can drink half a ltr of water when I get up, have breakfast and drink no more before the start and nothing until after 10k, then little and often.  I still see people on the tube on the way to VLM swigging right up to the start and having to pee every 20mins because they are worried about not drinking enough.

    The best approach is to experiment and see what works, read everything and use your head. 

    Back to the question. If you want too carry more water and not stop it's on the bars or on the back.  I can get 2 1ltr bottles into the cages on my bike, you could empty these into a profile tribar bottle once it's empty they hold close to a litre.  That's 3ltrs, start hydrated which you are not after the swim remember and that should do you.

     

  • JB , thanks for the tip. I will look into the info you posted too.

     

  • Four years in and I’m still unconvinced I’ve got my balance of water intake right.

     

    During training, no problem, a lazy recovery period consuming every last drop of liquid on earth is OK but now I want to tackle IM in ‘compete’ (with myself not the pros) not just ‘complete’ mode, knowing how well I function and how to balance my fluids is something I am struggling to figure out.  Even with ongoing practice.

     

    I am a big guy.  I do not deal with heat well.  I’d say my optimum temp for exercise is circa 13/14’C if sunny.  Beyond 16’C I sweat buckets, which is hard to detect on the bike.  This means any endurance event in the summer (when I have both my IMs booked) is an absolute sweatfest.

     

    Frequently on my long rides I will drink 500-750M (from the get-go) and still return home to be 3-5LBS lighter and peeing treacle.  Am I slower as a result?  I don’t know.  I have not yet been able to consume more than 750ML per hour and oddly, that still makes me stop to pee.  I guess I am consuming too much fluid for my body to take in so I am in constant state of dehydrating, much as I try.

     

    In an effort to be lighter and quicker, I’ve also done rides taking with me significantly less fluid (I’m considering starting IM with just on 750ML on aero bars).  It makes me drowsy for a short while afterwards and I’m sure as hell wouldn’t be excited about hacking out a Marathon in that condition.

     

    Ultimately, it is trial and error.  And that can be long process.

     

    Insofar as the ecological / economical dilemma about buying bottled water, I occasionally have that same pang of conscience but when I’m thirsty and miles from home on run or ride, that goes out of the window quickly.

     

    Public waters taps seem to be a good alternative (I’m just not observant enough to identify them).  Bottle drops (reusing same bottle).  Or rides that loop past your home / those of friends or family would surely work.

     

    You seem to have read a lot of the well regarded academic thinking behind this long-standing problem.  The best conclusion here is to be your own Guinea Pig…

  • I'm not a fan of camelbaks on road rides.

    You heat the water up.

    You sweat nicely underneath the pack.

    You cant really tell how much fluid you have had or have left.

    The weight of it is a bit achy. I think its better on the more upright MTB position ?



    I've had the extra bottle holder on the back for triathlons - in reality its best function was to store empty Ironman bottles so one race would give me enough bottles for a year or fiveimage



    If I'm out on a ride - I'll take two bottles on a long one. If I finish those I'll stop at a shop for cold drinks to refill. Where are you cycling if there are no shops ?



    You don't need to rehydrate as much as you sweat - that 2% loss of fluid giving you a 20% reduction in performance was funded by a company that makes sports drinks. Who would have thought it ?
  • I'm surprised no-ones mentioned the bottle bag 

    http://www.firebox.com/product/5927/6-Bottle-Bike-Bag

    Slightly more seriously there are frame mounted bag solutions:

    http://www.backcountrybiking.co.uk/product/tangle-bag/

     

  • FF, the first one  would be great especially if you got one that matched the colour of your seat and handle bar tape.

     

  • the bottle bag is a bloody stupid idea - it would have been drunk ages before i got a leg over the bike - ah for water you meanimage

     

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