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Sub 4 Amy: #asics262
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Good run Just Run. It sounds like some of our running habits are similar. You certainly sound like a high achieving family, will remember to look out for the JR siblings taking over from the Brownlee bros! Thanks for the thread info, will check that out sometime.
Amy
I find I can eat a breakfast of toast and small portion of cereals/porridge immediately before slower training runs without problem and fuelling does become increasingly important as distance increases and not advisable to do very long runs without fuelling and being well hydrated
I'm sure Ruth will be on soon with some nutritional tips. Personally in 15 mile run, would think about fuelling around 10. By the time you are depleted it's too late.
Hi Amy (Steve!) And here I am…..
Lots of chat on fuelling during runs already so would be interested to hear your history of what you eat/drink during long runs and races. Sounds like in the Edinburgh Marathon you were close to the edge/ not finishing …when did you start fuelling during the race and with what? If you post your Edinburgh fuelling history (also what you ate before race started and how long before. Believe it or you can train your gut to accept sugar when racing but often people don’t practice enough and typically these are the people that struggle to fuel during races, not the ones that are not luckily enough to have a strong stomach! Often the sickly feeling people get can be due to a combination of factors: dehydration, low blood sugar, fuelling too much or starting to fuel too late so by the time you are trying to take on fuel your stomach/digestion has shut down - not literally but the blood circulating to your gut is less as blood is shunted to skin to help control body temperature and to working muscles, which does not help digestion of food. Most people can find something that works for them so finding a sugar combination (often glucose & fructose) in form that you like (for example; gel or sweet & drink) and consistency a person likes (watery or concentrated in mouth) and flavour that you likes (always a personal thing!) just takes some time and effort initially.
I do agree if you are completing a half marathon in under 90minutes I would not worry about fuelling as long as your pre-race nutrition is good.
As I have mentioned to others, my view on nutrition is fairly sensible & my hope is that many of the changes I suggest will benefit you beyond Paris. I believe in working with your personality rather than against it. For example; if you know you need a treat meal each week or small treat each day rather than only occasionally then I would rather plan for this in your diet.
However, there are some circumstances/areas in your diet where it is takes sheer determination to make a change and excuses need to be put to one side but I tend to suggest this only when a change is very likely to make a positive difference to your outcome in Paris or longer term health. I also believe if you can stick to a change for 6 weeks (if the suggested change is achievable/realistic with someone’s lifestyle) you can break a dietary habit and maintain the change or at least a compromised version of the change for a long time.
I understand busy lifestyles. I am a working mum with 4 young children between the ages of 17months and 7 years and run 4 times per week ( although due to time constraints I run in the early hours with only a head torch as company) hence the need to be organised with food. I am a huge fan of cook once eat twice or even 3 or 4 times by freezing or having the same meal or a version of that meal 2 days later etc. Believe me by being organised with food and spending a little time on planning gains you time and better nutrition.
What would you like to change in your diet or what do you feel is wrong with your diet? It would be interesting to know what you eat and drink at a typical breakfast, morning snack (if anything), lunch, mid- afternoon snack (again if anything), example of evening meals and do you eat before bed? If yes, what might this be? In addition, it would be useful to have time you eat those foods and where (at home/at work). Do you eat before long steady runs at weekend? Steve has already made a comment on this and we both agree you should eat before long runs particularly as the miles crank up as this will affect recovery from your long run.
I am always happy to get information via a private message or via my personal email if do not wish to discuss on forums. If any health issues particularly family history
part two....
I am always happy to get information via a private message or via my personal email if do not wish to discuss on forums. If any health issues particularly family history of CV disease (heart attack, strokes), diabetes, gut issues or medication that may affect anything nutritionally please do let me know.
I will be posting on your thread a couple of times per week - Monday & Thursday or Friday and will post some short articles over the next few months. I will of course meet you in person at the next boot camp.
Ruth
A ParkRun on the 14th would be ideal for me - if it fits with your schedule that is.
I could then do my long run on the Sunday and not throw anything out.
Day 5 of incarceration now. Have acquired many running themed items online and watched a few movies. Will see my GP tomorrow for an insoection of the wound, and hope to hear I can shower!
I'm totally with Ruth on the food planning.
Sounds like we are on for a park run then Reikirabbit
Glad you've bounced back quickly from your disappointing run last week Amy! Huge congratulations on your storming Parkrun on Saturday, boy do I wish I had your short speed... A sub22 5K is a complete pipe dream for me, but then my strength has always been stamina. My mates at my club don't call me the 'Duracell Bunny' for nothing; I do have a reputation for not stopping, ever! I definitely seem to be having the same issues with pacing on my long runs as you though, oops...
Was supposed to do 10miles at 10min/mile pace approx for Sunday's long run. I decided to run on a trail that's an old railway line so pretty flat, plus it was a gorgeous morning for it. No wind, some ice but not a problem and the sun was shinning! 4 other members of my running club wanted to join me and were happy to stick with my pace so I can't use them as an excuse for going too fast, but my average was still 9:31min/mile (range 9:17-9:46).
I'm starting to wonder if roughly 9:30min/mile pace is just my natural conversational 'easy' pace as it felt really easy and we all just chatted as we ran along. I could hold a conversation easily and even tho I was looking at my watch constantly so knew it was too quick, every time I tried to slow it down, I'd be back at 9:30ish by the next time I checked!
So a question for Steve Marathon Coach and others on here with far more experience than me; as this is the pace I seem to relax into on my LSR, should I just, A: stick with it and accept that it works for me, keeping the pace of my other sessions (intervals/progression runs etc) as prescribed as these seem to be good for me too or B: try harder to get my LSRs at 10min/mile pace or C: carry on with LSR at 9:30 and increase the pace of my other runs slightly to bring them in line?
Any advice gratefully received as ultimately I really want to get the training right and give myself the best chance of getting that sub4 in London.
(Apologies for slightly hijacking your thread Amy!)
Welcome to the thread Ruth, I'll be following the advice you give really closely. I don't know if it's good, bad or indifferent, but my fuelling strategy for VLM last year was planned rather precisely (I have a bit of OCD around training plans/nutrition etc!). I had a gel 10 mins before the start, then one every 3 miles (approx every 30mins at the pace I was running) up until 21 miles (just couldn't face the 24 mile one!), plus I drank the Lucosade provided and ensured I drank water to thirst as it was a fairy hot day. I'd practiced this strategy in training and it did take a few disastrous runs to get it right and find what worked for me.
I think I've tried every brand of gel out there and I'm sure that it's a very personal thing finding what works. I ended up using Clif Shot gels, a combination of the raspberry flavour and citrus (which also contain caffeine); they're quite thick and gloopy, but I have found that letting them swill round our mouth for a bit gives a quicker boost of energy. I haven't started using them on my long runs yet, but for this weekends 12 miles I will. If my run is less than 8 miles, I tend to run on an empty stomach (bar a cup of tea, essential!), but anything 8 or more I have breakfast (2 slices of wholemeal toast, one with peanut butter, the other with marmite) first. I have to eat at least an hour before I run or my guts react badly, but this used to be at least 2-3 hours before so I've definitely trained myself to digest food whilst running better over the past year.
I'd definitely say that it's a case of trial and error though and you may try many different strategies before you find the one that works for you... However, this is one of the points (as well as getting the miles into yo
I'm sure Steve will have more advice but my long runs are 15miles minimum.
Morning all, I know 10 miles isn't very far for a LSR, it's certainly very manageable for me as I mainly focused on distance last year doing 4 HM's, 2 marathons and a 40mile Ultra. However, my last long run was a 16mile fell race in early November, plus I'm following the generic Asics262 sub4 plan so what the plan says, I do! It's a progressive plan so I'll be back up to 14/16/18 within a few more weeks.
How were your mile intervals this morning Amy? I think my run was similar to yours, just with slightly slower paces and not as many. I did 1m jog to warm up in 9:51, then 3x1mile intervals at 10K pace (8min/mile) with 400m recovery in 3mins followed by 1m jog to cool down in 10:13. I ran the first interval too fast in 7:39, but then then next two were much better, 7:58 and 7:57 respectively. Have to say I found the third one tough, more than likely because I'd gone too fast in the first one! I'm pleased that my pace didn't drop below the target however.
Tomorrow the plan says 4miles easy (10min/mile) recovery run, but as it's my club run night, I'll more than likely end up running about 6 miles. I'm planning on going out with the 'steady' group however, not my usual 'medium' group so that should help me keep the pace easy. Thursday's run is my first progression run, which I'm really looking forward to as I've never done one of these before! Will let you know now I get on...
You're going to love progression runs, what does this one involve?
Saw my GP this morning, and the wound is healing fantastically well - it felt so odd just walking round the corner though, and my orthotics felt steep!
BRB - if you feel 9:30 is your natural pace and you aren't getting any fatigue issues afterwards then you are probably safe running at that pace.
agree longer runs are normally nearer 15 but think early in schedule a 10 to 12 are good starting point.
Thanks for the advice Steve, I didn't feel fatigued today doing my intervals so I'll see how the rest of the week goes but pull back the long run pace if I'm not achieving the paces in my other sessions.
Mile 1 = 7.10
Mile 2 = 7.20
Mile 3 = 7.20 with a minor blip up to 8.00 as it slightly inclined but this was regained quickly as I hit half way and turned around
Mile 4 = 7.30
Mile 5 = 7.35-7.40, again with a blip up to 8.00 this time due to fatigue for a distance of probably about 0.2mile until I pulled myself together!
Plan is for 7miles steady in the morning tomorrow aiming for approx one hour.
Pleased to hear you have a healthy wound Reikirabbit
Night All zzz
well done Amy - though the fifth one was outside, it was marginal and the average was closer to 7:20 than 7:30
might have been better to have run first one in 7:35 and tried to gradually pick up rather than start fast but it was still a very good successful session.
Well done on the 5x1m reps Amy. Agree, it looks daunting. Been under the weather for a couple of days so swapped the steady run around saving the reps for tomorrow now i'm feeling recharged.
Looking forward to reading lots of nutritional advice.
well done on mile reps Amy, that looks a tough session. Went out for reps after work today but didn't have time to refer to your plan so did 6 x .5 miles with .2 mile jog between each one which took just over 2 mins each time. half mile warm and half mile warm down
1 - 7:03 pace 2- 6:54 3-7:00 4- 7:20 5- 7:01 6 6:56
rep 4 and 6 were into very strong wind so worked really hard on last rep, other reps were with wind so cheated a little.
Thinking of taking weekend parkrun a bit steady with the 15 mile the day after ( eek!)
Hi guys, just a quick message as the one that follows has just taken me over an hour to write and my bed is calling me....Amy....Amy....!
Glad you are feeling recharged Just Run, ready and raring now I hope. Well done with the run Ashley Woolgrove, no one knows the wind was behind you shhh!
Good luck with your 15 miler, I shall be doing the same. Thanks Steve Marathon Coach. Yes I should have been slower on the off set. I seem to struggle with the first mile/km to know exactly what pace I am running at I think so I make a guess and then adapt after I have run it, a bit trial and errory I guess. Hopefully I will get better at this. Buxton Running Bunny sorry it seems that I have missed your your previous entries some how. Yes it does sound like we have a similar problem. Steve's advice should have pleased you I would imagine. I hope I can train myself like you have with your nutrition.
Ok, so the next few posts i think includes all the information you wanted Ruth, please let me know if you require anything else or if I have missed something. And sorry for babble guys!
So, food, a topic loved by all. Indeed I was very close to the edge Ruth, I wanted nothing more than to have the finish line brought to me! I did fuel before the race; I woke up 90mins before I needed to be up to eat a porridge pot and small banana, and then went back to bed. When I got up I got ready and then had 4-5 dates before leaving. So I'd say I ate breakfast about 2.5-3hrs before I started running, and my dates about 30-45mins before I started running. I was staying in a Travel Lodge so this was the best I could do, I attempted to keep some milk in the sink full of cold water over night to have with Weetabix but it didn't work too well and I dare not use any of it so I had bought a porridge pot as a back up thankfully so just used boiled water to make it with. The night before's meal was some what of a room picnic too and not ideally what I would have chosen had I been at home. It consisted of some pre-made cous cous and pulse and lentil pot things, a bag of salad leaves, a prawn and dip pot, and a bag of 5 large choc chip cookies, which I hadn't intended to eat all of, but I did.
During the race I began fuelling just before the half way mark, which I did because I know I can do half marathon distance on nothing so thought I would take the nutrition on board just before I thought I might need it. I bought a couple of SIS gels and took a couple of High5 gels that a friend had given me left over from his training. If I remember rightly, I took 8 gels in total on the run with me but only used 5 of them. I think I took one about every 30mins after having the first, until I couldn't face the thought of taking another. I had practiced with both gels before the day on a few occasions in an attempt to train my body to accept nutrition whilst running, but think on reflection that I hadn't allowed enough time for this, and probably didn't take enough during the runs as I only had one or two.
In general as I am a morning runner usually I do not have anything to eat prior to running as getting up at 5-5.30 is early enough for me without having to have breakfast even earlier. I only have a few mouthfuls of fluid, perhaps 100ml in total I would guess. I have always eaten and drunk like this before running so think my body has adapted for it. On a weekend when I do a longer run it is only 8-10miles so doesn't really call for nutrition before it either, so again I run without eating and wait til I am back and showered. So, as the mileage increases in my training I know this is something that I really do need to address.
In general I eat a pretty well balanced diet. I know my down fall lies in a rather unsavoury sweet tooth (pun intended!). I am lucky in that the savoury foods I enjoy are healthy, and I generally dislike junk food and takeaways etc. Don't get me wrong, I still eat them when the need arises, but these occasions are rare. A takeaway probably occurs twice a year for example, and will be because of a social occasion. If I have to eat out in a fast food type of situation then I would opt for a more sandwich based style of meal etc. When I cook and prepare food this is done in a healthy manner choosing cooking methods that do not involve adding much extra fat if any, and I always trim of or remove fat prior to cooking etc and choose low fat products.
Unfortunately, I would say approx 500-600kcal of my daily intake comes from high fat and sugar foods. I like chocolate, cake, biscuits, icecream, a combination! I do know this is too much.
Although days obviously vary depending upon if it is a week day or weekend or if I have something on etc I would say a typical day for me is as follows:
BF (07.00) – 40g Fruit and Fibre with 200ml skimmed milk / kiwi, pear or 3-4 pieces dried prunes or apricots and 200ml skimmed milk
Lunch (~14.00) – salad with some form of protein
Lunch (~14.00) – salad with some form of protein e.g. pulses, egg, cottage cheese, tinned tuna or mackerel, followed by a handful of cereal / veg sticks and bread sticks or wholegrain crackers with hummous and/or cottage cheese, followed by a handful of cereal / occasional soup (tinned or cupa depending) with extra veg (e.g. chopped mushrooms or cherry tomatoes) chucked in and sometimes a small amount of cheese, followed by a handful of cereal
Mid afternoon (16.00-16.30) – chocolate biscuit / piece of cake / couple of mini chocolates / piece of fruit
Home from work (18.00-18.30) – Apple and either handful of cereal or a yogurt or a couple of biscuits or chocolates
Evening meal (19.30-20.00) – when I eat with my flat mate, which is usually 4-5 nights a week we have a proper cooked meal, which can be anything anything from risotto to a shake bag to a traditional meat and two veg meal to pasta. When I eat alone I have something quicker e.g. egg and beans on toast or a strifry. Overall meals always have a protein (usually chicken, fish, eggs or pulses, red meat or sausages likely only twice a month), carbohydrate (typically of wholemeal variety), and plenty of veg or salad (I easily get my five a day).
Supper – (20.30-21.30) hot water (or sometimes a hot milk), low fat yogurt (and fruit) and any combination of favoured sweet items
Fluids – water (hot or cold) or milk
I think planning food is very important too and certainly agree that changes can be made with persistence. Perhaps I need to be more persistent. I go through phases as many do with saying 'I will eat healthier' or I will do this or that, but think that as I know that I have a healthy BMI and am active and don't smoke, and don't drink very often etc etc that if I feel I want something that I enjoy then I just have it. I only know of a couple of family members with health issues. My Dad has high high BP and cholesterol, my Great Uncle has type 2 diabetes, and I think my Grandad on my Dad's side had a few heart problems, although admittedly he did not lead a very healthy lifestyle. So guess I have a possible increased risk of similar issues. I think because I have never really needed to watch what I eat that I haven't really, so perhaps now that I have a reason (I do want to be on top form for Paris) I will be able to be more focused and disciplined with myself. I do think that I should probably increase my fluids as am likely up to about 500ml short of what I would need on some days. Some days I am better than that, and my fluid intake has much improved, an example of how a habit can be changed with persistence.
My lunch and mid afternoon snack are eaten at work, and I do often choose to continue to work while I eat (slap of the wrist!). My other meals are at home. Breakfast is rushed as I get ready for work, but the evening meal is more relaxed. My flatmate and I will often sit at the table, but we too eat on our laps on the sofa.
So, sorry for rambling, and as I said please let me know if you need to know anything else Ruth. And please be honest with any feed back. And thank you for taking the time to do this.
Glad I'm not the only one who goes through a bag of cookies! Chocolate and cake
plus crisps are a big problem for me. Sometimes I think I don't fuel enough then overdo it after a run.
Freezing foods is something Mrs JR would do a lot when the children were babies and she was home. Now we're both working and this would be a massive help, we no longer do it as much. Will make a real effort to replace the unhealthy snacks in our home with more nutritious stuff.
Hi great thread thanks- Appreciate some advice as i'm hoping to complete my first marathon at brighton this year.
I have booked in a half marathon about 8 weeks before and wondered whether I should take this on at my marathon race pace (9 min miles) as has been recommended by a lot of people (i do quite a lot of race pace running at the moment) or whether i should go for it (sub 1:48 finish for me) I had a fair amount of time off injured in the autumn and feel like i have a good time in me to get back some confidence...but equally the marathon is more important to me!
Amy
All really useful information. I do think as a rule that running longer than an hour or high intensity session is would ideally be undertaken with fuel- food before but also realise if running as early as you do this is not going to work. So is there any way at weekends you can have breakfast then go before long run? And for high intensity sessions can these be done after work or even one of these? If only for period of February, March and April and all other runs before breakfast? I do realise this is a real lifestyle issue but may help overall but this is a personal decision but I think the quality of training would be better by mixing this up and will help with fuelling ? Steve?
My main nutrition points on your current food intake is mainly your am and pm snack or lack of it. If you train in morning you should eat more mid-morning as this will be better for your 24 hours recovery post training.
Morning snack could be:
Mid-afternoon; instead of chocolate & biscuits what about something lower in fat but sweet? Such as 2 slices of malt loaf? Or a granola cereal bar with chocolate pieces added to it and piece of fruit?
Are you planning on using gels again? If yes, I think you need to start these earlier in race– I have just written up an overview/induction to gels and jelly sweets so perhaps best to read that before we make a start on race day nutrition (will post link to this when it is up on nutrition page as only emailed this morning).
I would also like you to consider what your ideal race day breakfast is going to be exactly and the times you are going to have this. Best to get this straight in your head now and I can make some changes if needed.
Have a good weekend.
Thanks Just Run - Its hard to hold back in a race anyway!
Hi Giles, in relation to your HM and what pace to run, I think it depends what your training plan says the purpose of the HM is. (Btw, are you following a plan or have you developed your own? I'm assuming you're following a plan?) As far as I can tell from what I've read, the purpose of a HM in a marathon build up is to practice running in a race situation, practice hydration and nutrition strategies and to see how you're progressing, so I'd say that you don't want to run it at target marathon pace, especially if you're doing quite a lot of race pace running already; what are you going to gain from running 13.1 miles at race pace if you're already doing that?
However, I wouldn't go all out for it as you certainly don't want to pick up an injury or struggle with your training in the days following the half. I'd suggest running it at a pace where you're comfortably pushing yourself? I'm certainly no expert though, I'm sure that Steve Marathon Coach will have some excellent advice for you. (I totally know what you mean about finding it hard to hold back in a race situation tho, there's just something about pinning a number to your chest that makes you put that extra bit of effort in isn't there!!!) Good luck in Brighton!
I had a great club run last night; the plan said 4 miles easy (10min/mile) but as our club runs are usually an hour and I didn't want to duck out half way round or miss it, I decided to run with the 'steady' group as apposed to my usual 'medium' group. I actually ended up leading a run for the first time since I joined a year ago and I loved it! We had three newbies join us (January running resolutions I think!) so the pace was really easy and we did a lot of 'turn backs' so no one was left behind but everyone said they really enjoyed it. I guess the real test will be whether they come back next week, fingers crossed I didn't put them off! We did 6.45 miles in 1hr11min so average pace of 11:07min/mile, it really was VERY steady but I hope that the slower pace compensates for the longer distance?
As for todays run, it was the first progression run I've ever done and I have to say, what a great run! You asked what the run was RR; the plan said 5 miles with the first slower than 10min/mile, then each subsequent mile getting quicker so the last 2 are inside 9min/mile. My splits were 10:10, 9:43, 9:13, 8:39 and 7:56. I intended to increase by 30 secs/mile each time then let myself go on the last mile whilst staying controlled. I was genuinely surprised that I ran a sub8 min mile for that last one as I was expecting to struggle, but I actually felt great. I kept my breathing controlled and finished feeling like I'd worked hard but brimming with confidence and sporting a big smile on my face! Progression runs are definitely something I'm looking forward to more of as the weeks progress.
good progression run BRB
Giles - if you just have one half-marathon, then you should race it rather than pace it (as you can do a certain amount of pacing in training) but agree with BRB best to be a controlled race and try and hold back a little.
You don't want to overdo it and have a bad experience if it's your main race of the build up.
I would suggest that a sub 1:50 might be a target and if you feel really strong you can accelerate the last few miles and go quicker and that would be better than going all out at eight minute miling and then suffering badly and then worrying about your speed endurance levels.
Thanks RR and Steve, it really was a very enjoyable run!
Thanks for all the great advice guys!
Hi All
Just been avidly reading all of the thread, I too am running Paris Marathon. It will be my debut at marathons. I'm aiming for sub 4 hr, so will obviously be looking at this thread a lot. I ran a half marathon race in December in a new PB of 1:42:53. On January the 4th ran a local new year 10k in the icy conditions in 44:50. I also recently took my parkrun time to a new PB of 20:55. So I wondered if you all think that with these times a sub 4hr should be possible.
Yesterday I did a speed session of 2 mile warm up @ 8:30/mile. I then did alternate 1/2 mile fast, 1/2 mile recovery, 6 times with the fast 1/2 mile @ 7/min mile, the last rep was really tough, recovery 1/2 were again @ 8:30, and ended with 2 miles easy for a cool down. Quite a tough session but I enjoyed it.
So far I have managed a 16 mile run @ 7:55/mile, so far I feel the training is going well and I'm recovering well and really enjoying it.
Also just a thank you to you all for some great advice on this forum.