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Sub 4 Amy: #asics262
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Great article Ruth.. thanks very much!
Ruth I'm completely lost with race nutrition so this article helps a lot. Just a quick question.. If blood is going to working muscles at the same time it's required for eating then there seems to be a paradox in terms of where blood is needed. Presumably this paradox impacts us all differently and therefore our carbohydrate intake needs to be optimally adjusted so as not to detract from pacing during the marathon.
Any simple tried and tested strategies for doing/knowing this ?? e.g. intake in g/kg or do we only have long runs to figure this out and therefore only 5 or 6 times to practise realistically?
Hi Amy & everyone one on the sub 4hr thread!
Despite the early debate I'm really enjoying the thread - thanks for all the input and advice so far it's really making me think about the next few months.
Coincidentally I'm also called Amy and at just over 5FT tall I wear age 11-12 trousers (probably TMI but I promise you'll see where I'm going with this...) so therefore have a very fast stride turnover and have too been called a 'Pocket-Rocket' on a Saturday morning at parkrun! On my recent run leaders course my instructor told me he reckoned I'd take 1/3 more strides than the average runner on my marathon - not sure if it's true but eeek!
Well done all on the training progress and I always love to hear people falling in love with parkrun. Just completed my 45th and race directing for the 1st time in a couple of weeks. Amy and Buxton RB I'm not too far away and my 7 year old daughters favourite (but by far my slowest course) is Clumber Park - it's fantastic so if you're ever about and fancy a trip over let me know! I've never been to a parkrun which is bigger than 250 - over 400 seems huge so maybe Sheffield is worth a trip...
im doing the Manchester marathon on the 19th of April after fracturing my foot in the middle of an 18 mile run last summer on the way to my first marathon. Devastated didn't cover it, but I had the boot off in early October and having been making progress ever since.
Im not sure my foot will ever be the same again, but pre-break my times were 22.31, 45.28, 1.44.08
I hate 5 and 10ks and struggle mentally to push myself to the absolute limit, I'm much better at running even pace and keeping it up over the miles - endurance is my thing, but I've only been running just over 18 months so lots to learn!
Since my boot came off I've struggled mentally with any speed, but ran a 15 miler in. November and split a 1.48 half timeso not too bad, but cant seem to get under 24 at parkrun at all...
I'm following the RW schedule mixing up the sub 4 with the sub 3.45 to see how I feel.
Ran a lonely 12 yesterday averaging 9.32 minute miles, was fine until 9 miles and then began to struggle slightly,but the last mile was all up hill into a headwind so. I really had to grit my teeth!
Tonight is an easy 3 run leading at club, before circuits at cross training (couldn't face the beep test!)
Have a good week all, hope I haven't rambled too much!
Evening All.
Nice to see some friendly faces popping in SamMurphyRuns and SupermanRuns
The support is appreciated, and I look forward to seeing you both too, not long to wait. Wonder what the training day and Steve and Sam have in store for us SupermanRuns and how much we will be beasted?!
Welcome back Angela I, I wouldn't worry, I have no doubt that you will always just pip me to the post, but I'd like to think I'd give you a run for your money! Sorry to hear you have had a niggle. How did the prescribed rest sort you out? I think that's always the hardest bit, being told not to do something. I too find driving long distances not pleasant, my knees tend to hurt after a while. Rowing is pretty hard core. I tried it in the run up to Edinburgh, found it quite hard, but I didn't know what I was doing in fairness and just sat and rowed for a set amount of time. My thinking was that it would give my joints a bit of a rest but help to keep the cardio up. It sounds like we are similar in our pacing then, although you may have flip reversed things now!
Also sorry to hear that you have a niggle too Darren Williams 14, we runners are very persistent people always battling against things aren't we.The weather does indeed make it harder. My 15mile long run yesterday was going well until I hit the decks like a sack of spuds when I slipped in the mud at 6.5miles! Thankfully there was no one around to have seen it. I fell right onto my jacksy though and winded myself. Had to stop the clock til I recovered, which didn't take too long to be fair, maybe 3mins. Overall, the aim was to complete the 15 in 2hrs 15-25mins and I completed in 2hrs 16mins 45secs, plus the little break in between, so not too bad I didn't feel (pretty similar times there Ashley Woolgrove). Pace should have been 9-9.30s roughly, and I went up to 10.10s on the hills so a little faster in other parts up to 8.30s to make up for the this. The fall in the middle didn't seem to hinder me thankfully.
Ruth I am very keen to hear all your advice so will certainly take it on board. I will read your article over the next couple of days. The malt loaf has been purchased, and I had a good day today only having my usual sweet options for a pudding tonight. And, even more so, I had half a banana about 40mins before I ran yesterday morning, and had some Haribo Tangfastics during the run
I'm surprised how well I tolerated both these things. I felt a little burpy after the sweets, but saved these until ~11.5miles to try so that I was't too far from home incase they caused me real problems. I managed 3 one after the other. Had wanted jelly beans as Steve Maathon Coach recommended but the shop I went to didn't have any, so maybe will try these next week. Although I think the sour was good as it helped to make my mouth water. Still felt like I wanted a little drink after though. I must have looked pretty silly though as after the fall I was caked in mud and so was trying to eat the sweets using only my mouth to get them out the packet so not to touch them! Probably a tad ocd but I had very muddy hands!
Steve Marathon Coach, i did try to monitor my pace yes, although this was hard as Just Run points out. As the distance is short I think the pacer on my watch is always behind, and because I am changing pace more often than each mile clicks in then it doesn't really give a true pace I don't feel. So I was going more on how it felt. Surely I had finished the reps before the end of the session this meant I was running slower as you had expected me to cover 6miles in this time and I hadn't completed that distance? Unless I am understanding it wrong? I was
Part 2...
Unless I am understanding it wrong? I was running faster than normal in the faster paced reps though yes.
Great plug Buxton Running Bunny! And I will second that plug (Buxton and District AC, UKA, Licensed 5K race on the second Saturday of every month) as it was a great little course and a great bunch of people
And I was pleased with my time yes, but knocked 15seconds off your PB and in those conditions, now that really is something. Don't feel bad about your long run, you did note the positives, which is really important, I am learning that. You ran so well the day before that perhaps there was some of that having an effect still? Plus yes, lack of sleep on consecutive nights never helps, hope they were at least fun nights for the lack of sleep and not just work work work. How was the foam rollering? I got a tenner for Christmas and purchased a roller with it, have only used once though since I bought it last week. Its on my to do this to become more acquainted with it this week.
Just Run, I prefer smaller more frequent meals/eating occasions too. I like the sound of your club's handicap run. Great idea. I can imagine that spurs everyone on.
Great runs in strong winds Iain Hickman 2, sounds like we are all surprising ourselves, big up the sub 4 thread! I completely agree with Bramster, what a time for 18miles, you may need to switch threads and speak with SupermanRuns! How you feeling now Bramster by the way?
Hi Snufflepants! Great name, and second name, and third name haha not that I'm biased! 45 park runs, hope I can start to clock up that kind of number. I LOVE Clumber Park! I'm originally from a village near Lincoln and Clumber Park is about half way between Shef and Lincoln, my Dad used to take us when we were kids, we loved it, I'd def like to try that park run one time, will have think and see if there is a good date for me to come that way and maybe meet you there? Shef is good too though if you do make it this way. Manchester is popular on this thread, good luck with it, impressive to be aiming for a marathon after only 18months of running. Much like Buxton Running Bunny who is inspirational also, having completed two marathons and an ultra after only about 18months of running also! It took me 11years of running to do my first marathon! Urgh the bleep test, man that brings back memories! Would be interesting to see how I faired now, remember being quite ill after the last one I did at school and trying to be discrete about it :-
This weekends run Ashely Woolgrove is 13miles at sub 8.30s, so a bit shorter but a bit faster too, I think this one will be more challenging. Hope you can psych yourself for it!
I'll get the next four weeks posted up shortly, and what i'll do is each weekend I'll re-post the forecoming weeks plan so that people don't have to flick back through all the posts to find where I last uploaded it. I gather a some of the others are doing this on their threads and it seems a logical idea, sorry for not doing it sooner. If anyone has any similar ideas that make it easier then please just say.
In terms of fuelling yourselves in the long runs and how this can be a difficult issue. I have type I diabetes and if my blood sugar drops too low my mile times simply drop off the radar. For example, I was chasing a PB at Coombe Abbey Half Marathon (back in June 2014) things were going well averaging 8min miles through 10 miles then I had a flatline hypo and covered the last 3 miles in 12min/miles. Since that day I've found little tricks that work for me and help me get through those little episodes in long runs without too much devastation to my projected time (I won't bore you with the specifics as its too diabetes focused and won't work for non-diabetics!).
Anyway back to my point, I use raw jelly cubes as my fuel and it really works. I have found gels simply too vomit inducing.
On Sunday during that 18 miler, I ate 2 cubes @ 5miles, 2 cubes @ 8miles, 2 cubes @ 11 miles, 2 cubes @ half marathon distance, 2 cubes @ 15 miles.
I had a great blood sugar post run my diabetes nurse would have been proud.
A pack of Hartleys Jelly is about 40p and you get 12 cubes so my race fuel for the 18 miler coast me less than 40p a winner all round, maybe it might work for some of you fellow runners. (I cut them into cubes put them in a sandwich bag and stick them in the zip pockets on my shorts!)
Thank you all for the positive comments!
A good indication of needing more is when your concentration starts to go.
Good long run Amy - apart from the fall - looks you got pace right.
yes next week shorter but slighty faster
when you do fartlek or change of pace, best to press your watch each time you slow or accelerate and then the watch will record that section.
Amy's 5km win is up on Power of Ten - 11th overall of 56 and first woman and result should appear in this week's Athletics Weekly.
I don't fuel during races or on long runs - even when I was up to 21 miles last summer, but reading this thread and the Manchester one I've realised I need to get my act together in this area.
I've tried a couple of gels and they were as Iain Hickman 2 said 'vomit inducing'!! I'm a coeliac and suffer from multiple food allergies (pasta parties are a no go for me
) so again this could be slightly tricky.
On Sunday I'm going to try the jelly method and see if that helps - thanks Iain will keep you posted! I also work in NPD for a food brand which specialises in the sporting arena (but not really aimed at runners or cardio atm so lots of products not relevant for me as I'm not a complete protein monster) and some sports beans have landed on my desk...I'll be giving those a go as well!
Being pretty small I was also panicking about carrying up to 8 gels as there is none provided on route at Manchester.
I had thought about maybe taking a Trek bar and fuelling that way on LSR or is that a complete daft idea?
Amy - glad your run went very well at the weekend and that you are so fond of Clumber Park - it is indeed stunning (especially on a cold, frosty but sunny parkrun morning). As I was away with work this weekend I had to run an urban route and it was a bit of a shell shock! Where I live there are trails into Sherwood Pines, Forest and Clumber Park so I totally take for granted the routes I get to run...
Speed 800's tonight which I'm dreading, but someone beat my beep test record last night so needs must!!
Happy running all
Had a pack of jelly beans from sweatshop for my long run and they seemed to work and tasted really good, wanted another pack as soon as I had finished the first.
8:30 for 13 miles!
Glad the slip didn't do any harm Amy, a reminder of how easy it is t injure yourself.
Jelly beans are great ashley
6ish easy miles along the canal tonight. Feet got absolutely drenched thanks to a huge downpour before I went. Almost didn't go but it barely rained while I was out. Club night tomorrow, 5k handicap so preparing myself for some pain.
Thanks Amy, ankle seems to be healing - not painful, but not gone yet, still a small amount of swelling. What's worse is that I seem to be feeling slow runs more than I should- my heart rate monitor picking up higher rates than it should for certain paces. I'm trying to rest up well, but I think its probably down to alcohol deprivation since new year
Got the brass monkey this Sunday- hope I'm tip top by then!
Congratulations Amy on your place on the team. I look forward to following your progress ( which already sound alike you are doing really well- especially under the watchful eye of Steve
.
I did Paris a few years ago and loved it ( fortunately I didn't have far to travel as I live just outside).
I am running VLM and had hoped to be in better shape at this point, but a virus in December/ early January has slowed things down for me- playing catch up whilst not over training is a tricky business. Managed 25 miles last week and hoping for 29/30 this week. Then going to start following the Runners World marathon plan- unless anyone has any other ideas?
I followed this plan ( though only about 80%) for Edinburgh 2013 and managed a 4:03. I swore I would never ever do one again, but when I got a place for London ( and being so close to sub 4hrs at that time), how could I say no! My situation here in France means I have to run on my own- so my only contact with other runners is quite literally virtually ( and 60 pound overseas subscription to RW).
Good luck with training this week.
Cbo
Oh my goodness, it's blowing a gale out there! Very glad I got this evening's 6 mile easy run done before 8pm tonight otherwise I don't know if I'd have made it home or ended up in Oz! Hope no one else on this thread has blown away... Stay safe guys if you're heading out for a run in the next 24hrs.
Tim R2-T2, I can completely identify with you re running 8:20 for the duration of a HM, but then struggling on a LSR at 10min/miles; frustrating isn't it! Good plan to mark on your pace band when you're going to take gels/sweets etc. I did just that (my OCD again!) for VLM last year and it really helped. I even noted when I'd have gels with caffeine and those without.
Thanks for the encouraging words everyone regarding my slightly disappointing run on Sunday, you'll be glad to hear I've got over myself now! Onwards and upwards; can't believe we're in week 4 already!
Welcome to the thread Snafflepants! I too fairly well loath 5K and 10K and the vomit inducing (thankfully never literally!) pace you have to put in to give it your best. I'm also so much better at longer distance. The 'bunny' part of my forum name comes from my nickname in my running club; I'm know as the "Duracell Bunny" as I just keep going! Whilst I can manage 8:30 fairly comfortably for 13.1 miles during a HM, I just can't get my 5K pace below 8min/miles (overall pace on Saturday for my PB was 8:02!), very frustrating. Oh well, I'll be trying yet again to get a 10K time that reflects my sub4 potential on Saturday at the Twin Piers 10K; bring it on I guess.
Hey Amy, exciting that your fabulous 5K result from Saturday is now on Power of 10, well done again! The lack of sleep over the weekend was partly self inflicted so I can't really complain, it wasn't work related though to worth it!
(Just being slightly picky I actually did 2 marathons and an Ultra within the first 10 months of starting running; it's definitely NOT something I'd recommend however, much better to do what you've done and build yourself a really solid base first before pushing the long distance.)
Cbo, welcome also to the thread. I can totally understand your need to go sub4 after coming so close before. I've no doubt you'll smash that barrier in London on 26th April; see you there too!
Onto a update of my running so far this week. As I said a few days ago, I was on night shifts Monday and Tuesday so I really didn't know when to do my 'Tuesday' interval session. Should I do it Monday before my nights or Tuesday in-between my nights? Neither prospect was very appealing to me as I'd raced on Saturday then found Sunday's run hard in parts so I really felt I needed a rest day on Monday; however I know I always sleep really badly during the day so I'd be very tired on Tuesday.
I decided on the Tuesday option as I felt listening to my body and having a rest day was important so I set out after a shockingly bad days sleep to complete my intervals on Tuesday evening before work. The plan said 5x1000m at 10K pace (taking 5 mins) with 200m recovery in 90 secs with a 1mile warm up and cool down. I completed the 1000m intervals in 4:55, 4:55, 4:51, 4:53 and 4:55. Honestly, I was so surprised with my performance as I was fully expecting to struggle badly; sometimes you can really shock yourself with what you can achieve! The first 3 felt pretty comfortable, the 4th felt harder and the 5th felt pretty tough but I still felt in control so overall I was delighted with the run. It wouldn't be a decent interval session if you didn't feel you were working hard right? It's given me yet more confidence that I'm following the right training plan.
Today was a recovery run, 6miles easy in 60mins and as it was my main club run night, I planned on leading the steady group again. Sadly only 1 of the newbies from last week was there, maybe I finished them off with the hills we did, oops! Hills are pretty unavoidable round here though... There were far less people this week and not enough for a 'steady group' so a friend and I (who's training for a 61 mile Ultra in April) decided to do our own thing and had a lovely run around the streets of Buxton for an hour. He trains to heart rate not pace, so it was interesting running with him. He set an easy conversational pace, up and down the hilly streets and we did 6.09 miles in the hour, perfect.
I'd be interested in what other people think about training to heart rate not pace? I have to admit that I do have a heart rate monitor for my Garmin, but it's never made it out of the box!
PS: Bramster, I hope you're back running again soon after your illness last week. Don't overdo it and try to 'catch up' on your missed sessions, just easy back in gently and you'll be nailing that sub4 I'm sure.
I've never been interested in heart rate monitoring. I've always (quite cynically some would say) only cared that it still beats whilst I'm running. I feel it can be hard enough maintaining pace without at the same time trying to maintain a specific heart rate, so I just go on mile pacing, which seems to be working quite well at the moment.
You need to fine your own limit with what you can take but 2 gels an hour should be sufficient for most people and this is within suggested target . 2 gels is around ~46g per hour so this should work.
Thanks so much for the great article on race nutrition/gels/sweets Ruth McKean 2, it's really informative and I'll definitely be heeding all you advice.
On the recommendation of loads of people over on SupermanRuns sub3.30 thread, I have just received a taster pack of Torq gels to start trying on my LSRs. I thought I'd sampled just about every brand going, but I'd never heard of these. Will report back once I've had a chance to try them.
Today's run was 5miles alternating 10 and sub9min/miles in approx 48mins. My splits were 9:48, 8:44, 9:55, 8:58 and 10:02. I have to say that I've felt exhausted today and keeping to the paces felt much tougher than usual; I think it's a combination of poor quality sleep over several successive nights, night shifts and that horrible 'jet lag' feeling I get following night shifts. Despite doing night shifts for over 13 years now, I have never got used to them. Time to find a job with 9-5 hours I think! (Though unfortunately, as a midwife, these are few and far between! Babies seem to have the habit of arriving at any time of the day or night... *Sigh*)
So what races have people got lined up in preparation for their marathons? Over on the sub3:30 thread a list is developing, so I wondered if people wanted to get a list going over here on sub4? Might be nice to meet up if any of us are doing the same races? I'm doing:
Twin Piers 10K - 17th Jan
Alsager 5 - 1st Feb
Great North West Half Marathon - 22nd Feb.
I'm still sidelined pretty much, managed 3ish miles on Tuesday but that's all this week so far in terms of running - loads of walking and bike though.
Bemused by the jelly idea - I used to eat jelly like this years ago, great for your nails!
Extraordinary!!!
Evening All. There's some great comments on here. Will have to respond tomorrow night now as after spending the last 40mins writing a reply my laptop decided to crash and I've lost it all grr. Not been my night actually as after getting home from work late, my sister calling to tell me some not so great news, I then discovered that some kind person decided to borrow my both my number plates, only I suspect they don't plan on putting them back where they found them! :-/ So I will enjoy replying to everyone tomorrow. On the plus side my progression run this morning went quite well I think. I was certainly blowing by the 7.45min mile but I think I stuck to pace fairly well. Sorry for the short message tonight. Tomorrow is a new day. Hope everyone has a good Friday. Night.zz
Amy
Sorry to hear not been a great night for many reasons but well done on the session
Sorry to hear that you're still sidelined RR, you'll just have to listen to your body and easy back into training steadily. It can't be anything but really frustrating, but at least you're keeping up your cardio fitness with walking/cycling, try to enjoy that at least.
DS2: I'm really not sure what point it is you're trying to make? I saw from a post on another thread that you're mentoring/coaching Tigger, which she was enthusing about so I hope you're getting as much out of it as she clearly is, enjoy.
A day of speed training for me too yesterday. I did 2 sessions.
Here's what I did 2 miles easy (8:15/mile pace) x4 800m @ 7:00/mile pace, with 800m recoveries @ 8:15/mile pace and then last repeat of 1200m @ 7:00/mile pace ending with 1.25 miles @ roughly 8:15/mile pace.
Session 2, was 3 miles, mile 1 @ 8:15/pace, mile 2 @ 7:26/pace, mile 3 @ 6:28/pace. For a tempo run. The aim was to do each subsequent mile a minute faster than the last starting at 8:30/mile pace. Almost achieved it and it was done with no virtual pacer set on my watch, so all in all a really good session, felt really good afterwards!
Amy, so sorry you had such a horrid day yesterday, but hey, its Friday!!! WEEKEND... parkrun maybe??
BRB, there will always be those who focus on others and try to cut down the tall poppies. . . Didn't know you were a midwife! Might have to pick your brains- i'm expecting my pre and post natal exercise qualification to come thru any day now, and I need help contacting those who might benefit from my expertise. I was at a baby shower last week and 2 of the women who were pregnant had rather alarming plans for what exercise they were going to take up once baby arrives to help them lose baby weight. One of them suggested Insanity, which is incredibly high impact! I'm sure it would cause prolapse even if that wasn't a complication at birth!! Made me realise that there really is a need as this person is medically trained. Great session on the alternating paces. That's one of my favourite runs actually, although sometimes tough to do around here as its a bit hilly. Got to time it so the slow miles are on teh hillier bits so I don't care too much about keeping pace.
Ian, well done on your training. What was your reasoning behind doing 2 quality sessions in 1 day? If you are going to do a double day, I would make sure that one of the sessions was a recovery run/easy pace. This in fact can be quite a good way of allowing quality runs on consecutive days as the active recovery run in between will help get you ready for the next run.