RW F7 – Searching for 3:09

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  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Rich - I'm by no means an experienced marathoner having only done Edinburgh and Loch Ness.  I suppose I experienced the start of those two like most others despite falling apart in the latter stages...

    Despite being in HUGE group with hardly any space, there was always enough space to run at the speed I wanted to run at.  So long as you're in amongst other runners generally in or around your pace, you're not going to lose much if any time (also most people fly off too fast in every race, so chances are if you pace yourself right, you'll be getting in others' way rather than the other way round!) in those first couple of miles.  AND, a marathon is a long way so say you get held up by even 30 seconds in mile 1, it really doesn't matter.  Don't try to make up the 30 seconds once it opens up or else you'll suffer for it later on.

    I think I talk a good game anyway - let's see how well I put this into practice myself...!!

  • Rich, I'm staying with my brother on Saturday night in Crewe, then driving to Manchester on the Sunday morning. I booked my car parking at the Old Trafford ground (same place as the last 2 years) and it is right by the start.

    CD - I've got a training programme off a fellow Club mate who got 2.44.xx last year in London, so I'm following his programme albeit with altered paces. He did this RW forum thread going for his first sub 3 a few years ago with Gobi as his mentor. Been doing a few 8 mile progressive runs in the last few weeks which have been good and a bit of an eye opener regarding pacing control. But last nights run had the HMP first then the MP and the marathon pace did seem easy. Probably as you take the foot off the pedal the perceived effort seems easier.

  • taking a look at my last marathon, where I never trained for it at all. Longest run was about 17 miles. Went through half way in 1:40 and second half in 1:55. I think I did the last 6 miles at 10 m/m. So starting too fast pays dearly for me! I  know that when I'm going for the 3:09 that I need to be running 1:35 and 1:34 well thats the plan. But it's just a case of getting in the training to sustain that pace. If I get held up in the first few miles and get through half way in 1:37ish I know that firing up the pace for a few miles will burn me out. So I know that 3:15 is a great time for me and I'm willing to sustain that pace and get a good time rather that go for it and crash and burn! I'm sure it's managable to get back 2 mins over 13.1 miles at my pace but going for sub 3 would be a lot harder. It's a scary thought that I'm going to have to sustain my Half marathon P.B pace + 4 mins for my time goal! All this can be re-assessed once my Half marathon in Inverness is done!

    KR- It;s true what your saying about the HMP into MP. It does feel a lot slower and more comfortable. But as TR and CD have spoken about this and it's hard for me to graspimage you have a MP pace and a MP pace that your capable of. This MP as your training progresses changes and indeed becomes faster. So I'd say I'll asses my new "capable MP" once my next Half is done this way I can determine if 7:14mm will burn me out too quickly.  

     

  • Sounds logical KR.  Gobi knows his stuff so if half of what he knows has filtered down you'll be fine.

    CC - on the basis that most people start too quickly, if you've positioned yourself in roughly the right place at the start then you would expect more people to pass you than you're passing.  Hard to get your head round though, the urge to keep up with them is a strong one.

  • Rich wrote (see)

    taking a look at my last marathon, where I never trained for it at all. Longest run was about 17 miles. Went through half way in 1:40 and second half in 1:55. I think I did the last 6 miles at 10 m/m. So starting too fast pays dearly for me! .  

     

    Not training pays dearly for you, more like!

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    CD - I agree.  Not training is NOT a good idea.  Been there and it wasn't pretty.

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Oh - and yes, I think I hinted at that in my last post re: people heading out quicker than they should, therefore, you'll be in their way rather than the other way round.

    I've become pretty good at not getting caught up in the excitement at the start of the race.  I always keep a very close eye on my Garmin because what feels comfortable at the start of a race is normally way too quick.  I just make sure to take a look really early and a few glances and if I need to slow down, I do.  On my HM PB in November, I was targeting 6:40 per mile for the first 6-7 miles and then cranking it up in the second half.  At the start of the race, everyone flew off as per normal and my first look at my watch showed that I was going sub 6:00 pace!  I felt like I was jogging...!  I actually said out loud a couple of times "slow down" and I settled right back down and went through mile 1 in pretty much bang on 6:40 (after passing LOTS of runners even in that first mile as their early enthusiasm was haunting them very early in the race).

  • On the basis that most people start too quickly, if you've positioned yourself in the right place you should expect more people to pass you at the start than you pass. 

    Don't forget that any 'current pace' reading on a GPS can be way out, they fluctuate quite a lot.

    I've learnt that for me the run off the start line needs to feel so, so easy, almost like jogging as you say.  The last few years that's been the basic plan at VLM.  I use the conversation trick - just talk to people around you - if that's not easy, you're too fast.

  • CD- ha, spot on. Just did 6 miles at a nice easy pace. 8:36, 8:38, 8:24, 8:29, 8:19, 8:20. Average HR was 141bpm. On the plus side there was no ghastly fluorescent chest spitting's . There were a few coughs but nothing I can't cope with.

    So our motto "get Rich quick" won't happen unless I train and train hard!
  • Don't panic Rich, that first run back was never going to be a miracle of aerobic efficiency.  HR was bound to be higher than usual for that pace.  It'll take a few days but doing too much after illness is a sure way back to the bench.

  • CD- I'm so unsociable in a marathon, chat to no one once on the move and try to concentrate on what I'm doing and the goal in hand. I'm always still quite nervous about a mile in then I start to settle into it.

    It is manic in these larger marathons. Wait till I get on my computer in a bit I'll post a pic of the start of one of my marathons there was 64 starters! I finished 13th place! image
  • CD- I'll stick to slow short runs for now till I feel better. image

    was just good to get out there. Wind in your face , in the middle of nowhere with no-one busting your chops, Great! image (i meant the wife)image
  • /members/images/374863/Gallery/SLAMM.gif

     Field of 64! now thats a nice and spacious run!

  • how come I'm the only one waving? They're all so damn serious! image

  • What's everyone up to today? Anyone park running or doing their LR a day earlier? Are you all feeling Great, up for it and enjoying the running?

    I've got my little sweet daughter all day on my own so won't get out for a few miles till later on.

    looking forward to getting out again for a few miles again later. Nice and easy still though. image

     

  • I I combined the two, Rich.  Run to the local parkrun course, multiple laps of that before & after the run itself, run home.  A bit of a dull route but it was snowing so pavements weren't the place to be. 

    I'll be chasing around trying to sort the kids out too this weekend.  Youngest was supposed to have a rugby match this morning which was cancelled, but too late for him to come to parkrun instead.  Daughter will want ferrying around too later.

    Enjoy your run, don't worry if it still feels a bit harder than it should.

  • CD- don't you just love being a taxi? Although it's great your boy is into Rugby, even better he does the Park run with you! image

    That's great you've done your runs already, now you can relax. sounds like you did quite a few miles there!

    I was out to the local Soft play area followed by Maccie D's with my 2 year old(she loves the banter) as the wife is away on a first aid course.

     

    Chill out this afternoon. Run on the treadmill later for a few miles at a nice easy pace again. Too cold to venture out in this crazy wind and hail.  

  • CC- I've been caught up in a fast start in a few races. Mainly shorter fell ones where your all having a dash for a single trail. can get a little carried away and regret it a few miles into the race! What you up to today?

    KR- hows the legs after that HMP then MP run? Slow runs will be a piece of cake! 

  • 10k tonight. Progressive run starting at 10kph and ramping it up .5kph every half a k till I got to 8m/m pace stayed there for a bit then creeped it up again to MP and stayed there for a mile then started to cool down again. felt okay but still ropey. No hard workouts for me this week I don't think!

    Will run again tomorrow not sure how far but will only be at a nice easy pace for now. 

  • Well it's a God awful day out there today. Windy, cold and snow showers. Thought about going out the railway line for a wee trot today but decides to go with the LR route I failed to finish last weekend. When your not feeling your best the wind and snow certainly takes it out of you. I just went out and had a jog, knowing that I'm never too far from home that I could just turn round and walk home. I never looked at my garmin once. Ran like I was just out for a saunter and it worked. Managed 14 miles and finished at 8:22mm so bang on for LR pace. It did feel like I was running slower than usual but I guess the stats don't lie. 

    Hope everyone else got out and did something?image

  • Good job Rich, looks like you're properly back.  That week of rest paid off, if 14 felt OK. Good not to get hung up on looking at the Garmin, when the weather is lousy on a long run it's just about getting the job done. 

    What's the plan for next week?

    I did get out, a nice casual 10 this morning. 

  • CD- nice 10! you managed to fit it in with all the taxiingimage

    well I'm going to have a night off tomorrow and see if I can shake this lurgy for good! I'm aware that if I put in a real quality session this week it might just put me back! So the fastest I'm going to do is MP and leave that till Thursday and Sunday in the XC race. Not caring about the result of that so will do a long run Saturday morning. So was thinking of a week that looks a little like this.

    mon- rest

    Tues- 8

    wed - 6

    thurs - 8MP 

    Fri - rest/swim?

    Sat - 16

    Sun - XC Haddo house 6 miles.

    Should be okay if I do the miles easy again. will re-assess thursday in the morning might make it a n easy also.

  • http://www.strava.com/activities/248999417

    todays run- just looked over it and it appears I'm still ill! the HR is still very high for such a slow pace! image

    CD- so your 10. just a trot at 6:30?? image

  • CC82CC82 ✭✭✭

    Rich - good work on the 14 miler today.  Good to get back out there I'm sure.  I did 13.75ish yesterday instead of today as we were staying over in Aberdeen last night, so today wasn't going to happen for a run.

    It was f***ing windy.  At some points I felt like I had a parachute on...  Different loop from usual and one I used to do a couple of years ago.  All on the road and very undulating.  Came out at 7:55 average, so happy with that.

    Because I ran on Saturday instead of Sunday, it meant 7 days in a row, including 2 long runs, so over 62 miles for 7 days (48.55 for the actual "week" Monday - Sunday) - that and just shy of 210 miles for the month of January.  All records for me!

    Got to head up to Alness tomorrow all day for work, so might struggle to get the 30 minute recovery run in (which won't be a disaster).  I'm heading to Haddo XC on Sunday, so I'll see you there!

  • CC- nice 14 miler in the winds of hell! There is no fun doing the longer runs in this weather.when you get to the brow of the hills the wind just pummels over the crest and tries to knock you over. It's hard to get into a rhythm when your on the undulating courses but you just have to grind it out! I guess your like me stuck for new places and routes. Its also in a valley here so I have to run uphill for a good few k to get out the valley.

     

    Great mileage in the last week! 210 for Jan! wow! nice one! take it you had the day off?

    Few hills today on route and some of it felt like hill reps!   

    Not looking forward to Haddo after 16 on Saturday and still feeling like poo! that's going to hurt as it's pretty darn hilly(so I've heard) you won't see me I'll be at the back somewhere feeling sorry for myself! image

    just kidding I'll give it a good try. I came 25th in the last race and 10 mins behind the leader. so if I can finish 10 mins behind again I'll be happy!

    First race I had a dodgy stomach and had to visit the woods 4 times during the race. lesson learned there!

    KR- you been running over the weekend? 

  • 112 miles for Jan image oh dear! 98 less than CCimage

    14 miles for feb already though!image

  • Good that you are back running Rich, slower running is better than no running. Have you got a plan on what sort of pace to tackle the 6 & 8 on Tues & Wed?

    I love that first mile feeling in a race and it's a shame it doesn't last! From experience the quicker you go at the start the harder it is at the end. It is tempting to go with the flow, but if you have a race plan, stick to it and run your own race.

    Good total for 7 days running CC82, I think I prefer doing the long runs on a Saturday now.

    Planned an 18 miler yesterday morning and ended up doing 20. I didn't plot it on the computer and sort of guessed the distance and when I ended up home at 19 miles I decided to do “1 more for the road“. First 7 were 7.50 av pace, next 9 @ 7.06 av pace and last 4 @ 7.55 av pace. The faster miles were ok expect for the black ice on the smooth tarmac.

  • Morning all.  Nice 20 there KR, Encouraging that a quicker section in the middle didn't lead to detonation in the last 4 - signs that the endurance is getting there. 

    Don't worry Rich, I had fewer miles in January than CC too.  Oh, and the 10 were at 6:55 - 6:30 for 10 definitely wouldn't qualify as 'easy'!

    Those 6 & 8, I'd be tempted to go out without any specific targets, just start at a comfortable effort, if you're feeling good then maybe try a quicker few in the middle, again no particular target, just enjoy running faster again.

  • Thanks Dave, I think I have got a bit of work to do on the endurance still. Good pace CD, for your 10 miler. In regards to running reps for marathon training, have you got any pearls of wisdom in what distances work well. Is it better to mix it up each week with say 400's one week, then 1200's the next? I did some 1k reps last week and wondering whether to go for 4/5 x 1 mile reps tonight?

    Not sure how many miles I did in January, think it was 210+. A good start for you Rich getting 14 on the board.

  • KR - my usual reps during marathon training are 7x0.5mile, 2 minutes recovery.  The number of them is picked because that's what I can fit into a lunch break.  Nearer VLM (mid March or so) I'll go to 4x1 mile, 3 minutes recovery.  No harm in varying them a bit, but I think 400s are a bit short for marathon training.  I like to keep the same ones because I'm a creature of habit and there's generally some improvement through the season.  A bit demoralising when I can't hit the paces I used to manage easily a few years ago though!

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