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RW F7 – sub 3.30
RW F7 – sub 3.30
TR with Sense
I’m John, 34, been running since approx. September 2013. Fairly typical path from team sport in my 20s (mainly rugby), ended by injury, into endurance sport (cycling & running) in my 30s where timing of training and competition can be more flexible.
Current pbs (all 2014) 5k 19.23, 10k 40.57, HM 1.33, Marathon 3.48.
Spring marathon target is sub 3.30 at Paris in April 2015
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Oh wait you're the mentor?
Looking forward to following your thread sense. I'm sure you will smash your target.
Tee hee .... who's mentoring who?!
The best place to start is at the beginning. So post up what a typical marathon training week looks like for you, and what you are currently doing. Do you have a schedule you intend to follow this time, or would like help with that.
I will say that a target time will motivate you to get out the door but the final race time is out of out control a bit as we dont know how your campaign will pan out yet with work, life and illness all likely to get in the way at times. So we will work on controlling the controllables and see where you get to fitness wise.
Should be an enjoyable journey.
Well done Sense!!!
Hello! Sorry for the delay, just back from the cinema. This is great. Delighted to have TR as a mentor, really chuffed. thanks loads to the powers that be (and TR). Right, I'll pull together details of last couple of weeks training...
So, I’ve been pretty much following the schedule Coach Sam gave Superman Tim over on the asics 3.30 thread. I think it's similar to the generic asics sub 3.30 plan but think the sunday long runs start at slightly longer.
I have very similar pbs to Tim (5k to marathon) so hoping that a similar plan will help deal with previous failure to convert half-decent speed over shorter distances to sub 3.30 in marathon. Here’s what last 2 weeks have looked like:
5-11 Jan (total 37 miles)
Mon rest (yoga class)
Tue 8m - 1m jog, 5 x 1m @ 6.50ish per mile w/ 400m recovery, 1m jog
Wed 4m easy (9.15 per mile, sore/stiff from tues session)
Thu rest
Fri 4m, 8.20 pace increasing to 7.40
Sat 4m, inc 5 x 3min hills (up & down), approx. HM effort
Sun 17m, inc 3 x 2miles at 7.55-8.00 in second half (hardest session to date)
12-18 Jan (total 27 miles)
Mon rest (yoga class)
Tue 4m steady (?), 7.35 pace
Wed 8m slow, 9.18 average
Thu 5m – 1m jog, 5 x 800m @ 3.15ish per 800m w/200m recovery, 1m jog
Fri rest
Sat 4m easy, 8.37 average
Sun 10k race (Brixton 10k at brockwell park (undulating), 40.45 new pb!), jog warm-up, warm-down
Plan for next week & response to questions to follow…
Next week plan (38m total), slightly tweaked from superman tim’s is:
Mon rest (yoga)
Tue 4m steady (I’m not sure on terminology but tim’s guide says 7.25-7.45)
Wed 5m – 1m jog, 8 x 400m (approx. 90 secs) w/200m recoveries, 1m jog. (I’ve not got access to track so this will likely be a bit rough & ready!)
Thu 6m easy
Fri rest
Sat 18m off-road/ slow
Sun 5m slow?
The weekend is going to be the challenge. I am going away to see friends in Jersey and not sure what running I’ll be able to do. Sat night is likely to be bit boozy (Scottish burns night!), so think Sunday may fall by the wayside. I’m thinking about trying to do the long run mid-week as I think that’s probably most important run of the week? And then whatever I get done at the weekend would be a bonus. Any thoughts on this TR? I could prob do it on wed or thurs night but would be post-work so pretty big 3 hr-ish effort
My initial thoughts are that you are prepared to run 5 days a week but only 4 of them are marathon specific. 4m and 5m are ok for general fitness but not marathons. This plan would lead to a lack of endurance for me, what does it build to? Id like to see some 60min runs and maybe a 90min run midweek with a weekend long run. Speedwork is kind of irrelavant for me too, as long as you have the leg speed to run fast enough for your mp then you need to work on endurance over speed.
Previous marathons and training.
Stockholm, May 2014. DNF, after 24ish miles. I built up to this for about 20 weeks and was targeting 3.30 based on HM time of 1.33. Intention was to follow Pftzinger & Douglas up to 55 mile plan but this rapidly degenerated into a mish-mash of lots of slow running, the odd short quicker run, and quite a few spinning classes. Peak week was probably about 52 miles. I ended up doing 5 runs of 20+ miles, including 1 in mid-April where I ran the full 26.2 miles. I did this fairly comfortably in about 3.52 and this gave me fair bit of confidence that I had a decent shot at 3.30 in Stockholm. In the final 5-6 weeks before the marathon, things fell apart as I picked up a nasty lingering cough/ cold that meant I averaged less than 15 miles per week over last 4 weeks. On race day, I started at back of field and was stuck at 9.30 pace for first 6/7 miles due to crowds, then got excited/ tried to make up time and ran 7.50ish miles until about mile 18 when things got bad (tunnel vision, unsteady legs etc though didn’t realise at time), battled on to mile 24ish where I slowed at a drinks stop and ended up collapsing onto an unsuspecting drinks attendant who passed me onto some medical people who got me on the floor/ legs in air (slurred speech, pins & needles etc). Think main cause was not enough fluid but not 100% sure.
Loch Ness, Sept 2014. 3.48. Training for this was much less intense. I didn’t run much over the summer and had problems with a sore foot when I did run. Averaged about 15 miles per week for last 10 weeks leading in, plus 1/2 spin classes per week. One long-ish run of 19 miles. Ran aiming to go under 4 hours. Target was first half in 1hr 55mins which I managed to get almost bang on and then 1.53 second half. Tough last 2 miles but loved it. Lots of fluid plus loads of clif shot bloks from feed stations.
Size-wise I'm bit lighter than in rugby days (played in back row/ second row) - 6'4"/193cm and now approx 14 stone/89kg. Realistically I could prob lose half-stone or so but anything more than that is unlikely.
More generally, totally agree with you on controlling the controllables and crossing fingers for the rest. Apologies for not knowing TR, but what is your background/ running history etc?
Understand your comments re long run next week, but I'm in fortunate (?!) position of having minimal family commitments so not too much of a stretch to do something longer mid-week, albeit 18 miles would be difficult. Re weekend in jersey, one of friends is very neat runner himself so it's normally good fun to have some sort of run together. Again, 18 miles probably difficult though. How about 12-14 miles mid-week? and then 9-10 miles on Saturday?
Re 4/5 mile runs. I think the plan will probably start to increase these to 6/7 miles plus, with the mid-week run increasing to 9/10 miles plus. Though I'm not sure to be honest as details haven't yet been posted. Previously, I've struggled to run more than 3 times a week (all 7m plus) without picking up niggles so I do think there is some benefit to keeping a couple of shorter runs for the next week or two, just until I'm happy that feet & legs will put up with longer distances without too many complaints. Tuesday 4m run is normally with a group, which I'd be reluctant to give up as it makes a pleasant change and I enjoy post-run chat with others about how their training is going. Hopefully it can stay for next couple of weeks at least!
Re speedwork, agree that it doesn't seem that necessary for my situation. I do really enjoy running to a structure of specific times & distances though. Any suggestions for a tempo/ intervals-type alternative that might keep things varied but possibly have more endurance benefit?
How about something like this for next week (total 33m)? Very grateful for any suggestions
Mon rest
Tue 4m steady-bit quicker
Wed 14m easy
Thu 5m - tempo/ intervals?
Fri rest
Sat 10m steady
Sun rest
Not a great week but following week much more straightforward for long runs etc
TR - apologies for the deluge of info - really grateful for your help, thanks again. No rush to reply.
Minni/ Malcs - thank you. fingers nervously crossed it all goes well!
And another thread to follow
Like Minni, I just love the sub 3:30 threads coz it's such a mile stone time and it took most of us a good few attempts.
But with a 1:33 HM under your belt things are looking very good
Sense - I'm 47 have never played rugby, but I was into weights, fitness, surfing, windsurfing etc I had a bit of a back issue for a while and a physion advised me to get more active, so I did a few local run races for a year or two, off pretty low mileage and a long run of about 7M I did 10M in around 65mins, and applied for a VLM ballot place in around 2007.
I knew I would lack endurance (but had some leg speed) so set about building some endurance and working on my aerobic engine, and it worked a bit as I have now run the last 7 VLMs between 2:51 and 2:55. These have all been built around swim/bike and run training as I also do a few 1/2 IM tri's each year and like to swim, bike and run year round, just putting in a bit more run focus Feb to April for VLM. I've never been prpared to have a big mileage run only apporach which is why my times are so consistent, but I'm happy with that.
I have a low science apporach to endurance sports and have no GPS, racing shoes, schedule, club membership, training partners and simply build my training around mornings and lunchtimes as I have a couple of lads that are involved in lots of sports eveinings and weekends.
I'm around 12 stone at 5ft 10, so maybe pretty similar in terms of BMI to your 6ft 4 at 14 stone - not sure. You are very similar to where I was, someone obvioulsy though about us as a match !
Sense - your 2nd marathon experience looks good and well controlled, the cold hard facts are that marathons are hard work for bigger units and you burn loads of calories and oxygen in those big muscles. So like you have found out you need nutrition, fluids........and endurance.
You simply need to run more easy miles and you will improve, its as simple as that. Your 40min 10k is impressive and shows that you can run and hold a good pace in a tough event like 10k where you are fighting against the red line marathons are more about holding an easy pace for an extended period.
You could indeed do that week you propose, but dodnt do then hard running the day after the 14M. Most folks think that they have to run fast and do intervals etc I think it comes from club sessions, but it comes with an injury risk and training frequency/consistency and miles are what makes a marathon campaign. How fast those folks can run intervals at is irrelevant if the wheels have come off at 18M due to lack of endurance.
However, it is important that you enjoy the journey and soem of the training, so keep the Tuesday 4M with your friends if you like. Can you put in a couple of miles before they get there and retain the post run chat, 6M would be good.
If you can then fill your other 4 days with something like a long run at the weekend, 10 - 13M midweek and a couple of other 6 to 8 milers you would really be getting somewhere. You will need to build up to this, but with small weekly increments and easy pace then the risk is low. the more your body toughens up the less niggles you should get.
We can always introduce a bit of quicker stuf later on to put a bit of icing on your newly baked endurance cake.
BTW - do you have any build up races planned ? as we could work around them for a fitness test, preferably 10M or 1/2 mara ?
Sense Cant wait to follow your progress as well!
Im not sure ill have enough time to maintain my thread and follow yours.
Okay, of course I will have, Good luck buddy.
Hi Sense and TR, I'll be stalking your thread as well. Although as with SupermanRuns your pbs at the shorter distances names me think my dream of 3:30 is a bit premature... But at the moment I more in the circa 3:30 camp rather then sub, so anything beginning with 3:3x will do me.
Looks like if you can get through your training well you should smash the 3:30.
I was at Loch Ness last year, not too far in front of you
but then my training went much better than yours. My first and only marathon to date.
Hi Sense / TR I'm also going to be following this thread, my current pb is 3.38 in London last year, I don't think I can get under 3.30 but I'm going to try and get close in April so will be taking your advice TR and try!
Thanks TR – I’ve got loads of questions but I’ll try to prioritise and stick to the point (for now at least).
All this low intensity/ easy mileage – what sort of pace should I be running at?
I’m assuming it’s something slower than my aspirational marathon pace (8 min miles) – if so, I’m nervous that I’ll get really good at running at an easy pace but will struggle when stepping it up to marathon pace? I think part of my enjoying the quicker stuff is that it helps me feel as though 8 min miles (or whatever marathon pace ends up being) should be a breeze.
As discussed, this week likely to be bit piecemeal but I’ll aim to get at least 30-35 miles done with vast bulk at low intensity. Next week should then be easier to get up to 40ish miles with a proper long run. Will keep you posted on how it goes.
Races. I’ve got 2 booked in but not planning on running either of them at 100% effort.
Sat 7 Feb – coastal trail half marathon in Devon. It’s hilly and I’ll be running with my girlfriend. She’s probably a better runner than me but intention is that we’ll probably run at about 80% effort and hopefully enjoy the scenery. With the hills I’m expecting to be out there for 2-2.5 hrs so hopefully equivalent of a normal 15-16 miles run or thereabouts.
Sun 8 Mar – Finchley 20 mile. Wasn’t planning on racing this and would take your advice on how best to approach. Either slow throughout or with sections at faster paces. Just seemed to be a popular spring marathon prep race that I didn’t want to miss out on.
So – I’d love to book in a half marathon and run it all out. I like the idea of an intermediate goal and my last 2 half marathons have been bad so would be good to have a shot at rectifying that.
When would you say is ideal timing for a half pre Paris (which is 12 April)? I’m based in London and fairly sure that (apart from Sun 8 Mar) most of March is free so I’m sure I can find a decent one somewhere.
TR - I went to a swimming session with a local tri club last night. It was painful. I'm trying another tri club tomorrow night then will join one of them. Off topic but when does swimming get easier???!!!!
superman/ the running andy/ ktkt - hello all. Do keep me posted on your progress as well (super - I'll still be all over your thread) and hopefully we can all get what we want out of the training plan and ultimately race day. I'll be delighted if can put together 2-3 months of consistent training and hopefully the consequence of that could be a bit of improvement to my marathon time.
thanks Minni. I'm gradually getting the message about slower running (!) so I'll try to limit myself to something a bit quicker on Tuesdays (because it's fun, not too long, and in a group) but slow down rest of the time. What are your thoughts on recommended pace?
Re tri - I have long long term ambitions about ironman stuff but I'm a terrible swimmer so think it's at least 3-4 years and a load of swimming lessons away. I'll keep an eye on the various threads though to see if you hit on a magic formula for learning to swim properly.