A bit like sub-4 (but 15 minutes quicker)



  • I thought about that Puggers. I'm thinking about running with the Runners World 3:45 Pacing group for the race so wouldn't it be nice if the regulars from the thread could meet up and say "Hello" on the day and maybe run at least some of the race together.

    Have a good training weekend everyone. I'm sure there'll be lots of tales for the start of next week.

  • Hi Adam

    I agree with swerve, if you don't get the long ones in you will die the death on the day. As long as you don't go off too fast , virtually impossible for the first mile or two, but possible thereafter you should be ok. There are big time boards every mile so it is easy to slow down if you are going too fast. Don't be tempted to keep going fast if you're feeling good, you will pay ten times over later. Get your game plan and stick to it !!.

    Just done a 7 mile easy run at 9 min mileing and got a 20+ miler with a group of friends tomorrow. One has done the FLM twice and just missed out on sub 4 hours cos he doesn't do enough long runs so I'm bullying him into doing at least 4 this time.

    have a good weekend running everyone, catch you on monday


  • Are we all at the same start? I'm at the Red Start.

    Adam, there are very good scientific and physiological reasons for not going off fast. It's not an efficient way to run you will use all your glycogen up too soon and you will hit the wall much earlier. I think also your heart rate will be creep up quicker which has all sorts of implications.

    Maybe a half marathon would help you practise. Better still maybe you could find a race between 16 and 20 miles, run it at marathon pace and see how you get on? But I'm no expert! Much easier to give advice than to take it!

  • I think my problem is that i'm fairly inexperienced at racing and running, so as a result it's difficult to know what is too fast as i don't really know where my standard is. The same way as it's difficult to know if i'm gonna run 3.40 or 4.15 for the FLM.
  • Adam, can you make any of the pacing runs? I'm at Sutton Park a week on Sunday. That's 20 miles where you can run with a group at 8:30 pace and see how you get on. It's going to be a real test for me.
  • guess that's the sensible thing to do. Problem is, with a demanding (self employed) job, two young kids and a misses who's getting increasing pissed off with me running when it comes to kids bath time !! -I tend to run when it's politically the best time, this means i'm not really able to plan as well i should
  • First in with my weekend Long Run report. Well I made it - a 21.5 Mile Long run this morning in 3 Hours 10 minutes. A friend joined me for the last 9.5 Miles which certainly helped keep me going. This was 8:50 mile pace, slower than target marathon pace but my route was a lot tougher with a couple of hard hills.

    The "Battle of Wounded Knee" continued as usual but it was a bit strange today. I started to feel sore as normal about 5 miles with the pain getting gradually worse until it was a really sharp pain about 8-10 miles in today. But I kept going and the sharp pain subsided to the much preferable dull ache. This meant I was able to keep going at a very steady pace just to get the time in on my feet. I felt quite dreadful for the last 2 miles which I suppose is to be expected 19.5 miles into a run. I kept running all the way so I'm really pleased.

    I don't think I'll do too many more long runs as I don't want to risk my knee too much. I think one more long run in two weeks will be enough for me ahead of the big day. I've a half marathon in Inverness next weekend to worry about instead.
  • Hi all, Big Probz wid d PC yet again, only got back on line yestdy.

    Looks like you're all putting in some good training, I haven't run for about a week. Its not an injury just a mixture of LAZYITUS and havin loads of stuff to do round d house.

    Donna, With ref to yr earlier Question, my Fund raising is going quite poorly. I have only really just started to get me arse in gear with it all. Im lucky in the fact that I don't ave 2 get a certain amount but thats no excuse, its a Good Charity and I should try harder. Ive never took a golden bond off of them and so have only been asked for about £300. In 2001 I did £450, 2002 I did £350 and last year I did £785. This year will probz b me worst as most peeps r bored with me now askin 4 cash for d 4th year runnin.

    PPB, as for your earlier Question. Its a long complicated story. The first year is the best Marathon I ran, not my PB but the most sensible, steady and comfortable. Didn't really struggle until about 21ish miles. Then I found another Childline runner lookin 4 a sub 4 time. Then we just stuck 2gether and slogged on throu. I stayed in n around d RW Pacer throughout the whole race. 2002 I made the silly mistake of staying wid some NUTTER called TOM who at mile 15 said lets pick it up. I felt so fine at this point I thought Y not? At mile 21 after doin a few mile at 7m/m I told him to go on, and I slowed down all the way to d finish line. However had I not made that stupid mistake I think the whole route would of been quite comfy. 2003 was different al2gether A foot injury from June02 was givin me jip and I walked at mile 19. Then slowly struggled in from 20 to 26.2 in pain.

    This year is gona be different, did a 16 miler last week and trying to do a 20 miler 2moro in Thanet.

    Take it easy people

  • Hi
    Have been with the sub 4 thread but as I am following the 3 45 schedule in RW & everything is going to plan thought I might look in here. Training for the marathon I am coping with but already feeling anxious about actually doing it. As 1st marathon main aim is to run it comfortably & to hell with the time but can't help the odd wave of ambition to do a decent time as I find myself getting stronger
  • morning all

    hope you all had a good weekend run. PPB your long one sounds well on track for the 3.45, hopefully your knee will hold out. I did a 23 miler on sat , 3 friends kept up with me to 19 miles then dropped out. Felt pretty good all the way round, even the last few miles although my heart rate went up to around 155, and finished in 3.21. Doing laps of the reservoir (1.4 miles a lap) and the last lap at 11.53 was the second fastest. The cold shower on the legs worked it's magic so I ready for the first fast session of the week today.

    Donna i think i'm at the red start and you're right it would be a great boost to try and meet up on the day, anyone else up for it ? I'll be easy to spot, I'll be wearing a Flora London Marathon race number ha ha

  • Hi all

    Just got back from my skiing trip yesterday afternoon. What a difference the fresh mountain air makes. Managed to get some sets of hill reps in whilst I was there but didn't do as much as I hoped. I was too knackered after a hard days skiing and running in -10 conditions isn't too pleasant. I'll see tonight what sort of effect a quiet running week has had on me.

    Some good runs going on by the looks of things. Keep up the good work. How did you all get on in your races this weekend?
  • Morning sub-3:45-ers.
    Excellent long ones, PPB & Peter. Welcome Blott's mate (and a ruffle behind the ears for Blott).

    Wymondham 20 completed at 8:17 pace yesterday, intended as a marathon pace run, ended slightly quicker despite messing up the pacing throughout (though I think a few markers were a bit approximate). I felt I had another six-and-a-bit left in me, though the pace would probably have drifted somewhat. So all's well, really. Except for the difficulty walking - I hope I haven't pushed it too much, considering my marathon's less than four weeks away. I promise to do the Ashby 20 at snail's pace next week.

    Any more long runs/races to report?
  • hi swerve

    8.17 sounds a bit fast for 20 miles, I make that around 2.45.40 , with only 6 miles left even at 10 min miling you would still be around 3.45 pretty impressive. Have you tried the cold shower on the legs after the long ones, it really works for me, last few weeks have been able to do a speed sesh on the monday after the sat 20+ thanks to cold shower.

    As long as you get at least 2 weeks taper you should be ok on the day, will be waiting for your time with interest. Any more speed sessions planned ?

  • Your maths is spot on, Peter (unless we're both out!). I'm targeting 3:40 though, so there's a bit less leeway. On the other hand, if I'd wanted to kill myself I could probably have taken around five minutes off yesterday. And sub-3:45 would be great too.

    Owing to distance and other complications, I didn't hit the shower til about three hours after the race, by which time I was well and truly crippled. But I'll give the cold shower thing a go next time if poss.

    I may scale down my speedwork from now - in the first mile yesterday I was feeling some effects from Thursday's killer sprint sesh, so I might be nicer to myself this week. I suppose the aim now will be just to do enough speedy stuff to maintain cardiovascular fitness, and schedule a bit more longish, slow stuff.
  • Hi everyone. Well, I am seriously impressed by you guys - PPB, Pete and Swerve - your long runs are obviously going very well, so well done.

    As for me, well I had one of those nightmare weekends: mowed lawns Sat am, rehearsed Sat pm, performed in concert Sat eve, 5 hours sleep Sat night, rehearsed Sun am, guests over Sun pm, 4 hours sleep Sun night......

    And after all that I had to squeeze my long run in this morning, setting off at 7am. I ran to work (15 miles) and then because I was supposed to be doing a 20 miler I added an extra 2 mile loop on to the end. By that time I was utterly knackered so I ended the run there.

    I am a bit concerned about the fact that I hit a bit of a wall at about 16 miles - legs felt very heavy and hip joints felt as if they were seizing up. How much do you think this was caused by my terrible preparation for this run? In my defence I was really exhausted on Sunday after my Saturday from hell, and didn't even get a good night's sleep to help recover. But then again, I know I haven't done enough really long runs yet (only one 3hr, although quite a few 2.5hrs).

    What's the verdict - am I going to have a shocker on April 18th? I have a 20 mile race in 2 weeks which will be a bit of a fitness test. I may even try to rest for this one ;-)
  • Hi swerve, looks like we can both use a calculator. I should think the 3.40 is well witin your sights. The 3 hour wait for the showers will make a massive difference, all the lactic acid and muscle tears have had a chance to really settle in your muscles.

    I tend to spend the first 10 mins doing GENTLE stretches and then straight into the shower before the legs start to seize up. Try it if you can cos it made an amazing difference to me.Did my 23 miler on sat and have just done 4x1.5k speed sesh with 500 metres jog recovery.Felt great, my times were 6.13, 6.25, 6.28 6.29
    an average of 6.24 which was better than last weeks 3x1.5k sesh of 6.30. More distance, quicker speed, yipee for cold showers.

    Puggers I'm amazed you managed to run at all this morning, I'm glad I don't have to perform especially with so little sleep. I shouldn't worry too much about this run, as you say the preparation was not exactly ideal, however you do need to get at least 2 more 3hr plus runs in up to 23/24 miles or you could suffer on the day . They don't have to be particularly fast you just need to do the time and distance to get that endurance into the legs. and don't forget the cold shower after.


  • Hi All, Did d Thanet 20 yestdy in 2:48,16. Was hoping for 2:40 at the start, got running with a few fellow Forumites and B4 we knew it the first 10 mile when by bang on 1:20. A few of us stayed 2gether past 13 at the same pace then I dropped something and had to catch up. That hurt a little then at 15 I slowly Died, Even walked up a hill at 19, B4 jogging very slowly in.

    All in all I enjoyed the race, however had I not been sooo silly and started at 8:30 m/m I probably would of finished quicker.

    Well done on yr recent 20 Swerve, good time.

  • Puggers if you ran to work you may have set off too fast hence the lull at 16. Next long run will be heaps better
  • The above race of which I talk served me with one vital piece of info; I can forget any attempt at Sub 3:30 this year. Im staying with you guys (n girls).

  • morning all, hi woony, 1.20 for the first 10 miles sounds a bit fast to me. It's easy to advise other people not to go off too fast, but not so easy when you're with a fast group and feeling good !! One thing about the FLM , unless you're with the elite start , it's very difficult to set off too fast for the first couple of miles just down to sheer number of people. It would be nice to finish fast, something i have'nt managed yet, maybe this time .

    Off for a run over the moors for a bit of an easy one today as will be doing second speed sesh tomorrow. Legs still feeling good so will have to remember not to push too hard for a recovery day.

    Do you find that if you don't get out on your run you feel a bit edgy and start worrying that you're losing a bit of fitness ?? I wonder if most runners are a bit obsessive about it like me, After all you've got to be a bit nuts to run 26.2 miles!!

    catch you later

  • Hi all. Some great running last weekend from everyone. Congrats to Swerve and Peter. Stick in there Puggers, you can't expect not to feel tired after a weekend like that. Woony - PACING, PACING, PACING! 2 Hours 40 was quite a target to try and shoot for anyway. You're on course with the rest of us for our target pace. Hello to Blotts Mate.

    How is everyone feeling in the latter part of the long runs? Most of us are over 20 miles for our long one now. I felt quite rotten in the last 2 miles at the weekend. If I hadn't been with a encouraging friend their is every chance I would have stopped and walked for a bit. I'm determined to try and run all the way in London. I'm planning on following the advice of putting my name on my shirt so that folk shout my name. This may help keep me going.

    I should really get in some miles this evening, but I'm tempted just to watch the Man U game. I reckon I'll have a day off then aim for a 10 miler tomorrow night.
  • Peter, PPB, Yes yr both right, It was too fast, Pacing IS important. However Firstly I had a 16 miler under me belt at 8m/m and didnt see it as Tooooooo much of a jump. Secondly I was still holding on to the faint chance of me doing a 3:30 FLM. And lastly I just cant seem to do the Negative Split thing on anything over 10 mile. It sounds silly but starting faster than I should and dying at the end is how I got my 1/2 Mara PB. The next year on the same course I started at a Pace just below my PB with the intention of a Neg Spilt. However found it hard to UP the pace in the 2nd half.

    Not Knockin yr advice guys coz yr both right , just trying in Vain to justify my silly actions. Anyhow it should still bode well 4 a 3:45 (3:39,45 would be really nice).

    I like the idea of us all getting 2gether at the start/Merge points, and egging each other on

    Take it easy people

  • PPB y would anybody want to consider even THINKING about a MAN U game when the MIGHTY HAMMERS R Playing tonight?

    Theres only one UNITED........... WHU.

  • I'm a Glasgow Rangers Fan Woony I'm supporting Porto tonight!
  • Actually just re-read your first message Woony. I'm exactly the same re. pacing. The only way I can get a PB is to just run from the gun and positive split. I'm doing a half this weekend and my aim is for half way in about 50 minutes then just try and hang on to that pace for as long as possible. I've tried negative splitting, and did manage it once on a very hilly half marathon, but I just end up slower.
  • hi PPB

    I've found that the last few miles of the long run get easier the more long runs you do. My mileage for the last 4 saturday long runs have been 16, 19.1, 21.6 and 23. I suffered for the last couple of miles for the first 3 but for the last one I simply found that my heart rate increased to around 155+ yet my legs felt ok. I think it shows that as you build the endurance in your legs it means you avoid the wall for longer and longer. I'm gonna try a 24 miler this sat and I'll let you know if my theory works.

    I can't wait to hear the crowds shout "Come On Ping Pong Boy " it'll certainly life my spirits. Definately think it would be nice to meet up on the day,lets hope it's a sunny one, I've been lucky for the last 3 years and ended up with vest marks from the sun !.

    off for an easy 6 miler with friend at 12.30 still not raining so probably running up over the moors.


  • hi woony

    have to admit I'm better at giving advice than taking it, I've slowed down on all 3 FLM's . I know it can work though, last year ran with a friend called Jaki who is a bit of a whippet. She stayed with me to 16 mile than pushed on and did 3.45 in her first FLM while I trailed in at 3.57.44. I'd peaked too soon in training and didn't do enough speed and long sessions and wasn't feeling confident at all. Jaki's second half was over 2 mins faster that her first and she was a bit disappointed that she couldn't go faster as she was dodging slower runners ( people like me and you no doubt !!)

    Lets hope she doesn't run too fast for this dinner times slow one

    have a good run

  • Thanks for the words of encouragement guys.

    I have the following long runs left:

    1) Half marathon race (target sub 1hr 37)

    2) 20 mile race (target 9 min miling - 3hrs. I am just hoping that by taking it very steady early on my stamina holds out better)

    3) 22 miler training run (target 9 min miling)

    4) 18 mile training run (this is the beginning of my taper)

    Hopefully if I can get through those then my wall will move back a bit. Also I'm really hopeful that better preparation will make a world of difference. And the great news is...NO MORE RUNNING TO WORK!! Hooray!
  • hi puggers

    if you can do the 3 long runs on consecutive weeks you should find the endurance improving quite considerably. Did a moderate easy run with my friend Jaki, 6 miles in 50.10 , it does have a few inclines and one fairly big hill in it. Heart rate stayed around 145-150, a bit faster than planned but she's a lot better than me. Got another hard session tomorrow, 8-10 laps fartlek of ilkley park around 3.30 a lap so hopefully got something left for then.

    The long runs do make you feel better, normally when I do this run in anything under 52 mins I can feel it , but this one felt fairly comfortable. (trying to think positive thoughts!!)

    Anyone else had a good run today ?
  • Just had a fab run in the forest. HAve been doing a dull 2x red route session Tuesdays ( waymarked paths) Lots of wide dull tracks. TOday took the plunge & followed onto a yellow route where it touches the red one without a clue where it would take me. IT turned into a wonderful wibbly wobbly path in & out of the trees. A bit spooky in places with only Blott for company but great fun & sl shorter than 2 red ones
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